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On April 27 2013 01:25 PanzerElite wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 00:18 Jinky wrote:On April 26 2013 21:23 j4vz wrote:
I think ZvT is a lot of fun:
Terran makes bio, mines and skip siege tanks, you just all-in ling/bling or ling/bling/roaches and win every single time.
Terran going hellbat drops? you just all-in ling/bling or ling/bling/roaches and win every single time.
Terran doesnt skip siege tank, you play standard.
People just need to stop playing standard versus the first two builds.
This. Also, as far as openers go, I beat so many Terrans (high diamond) because they do the greedy openings and assume that Zerg will play standard/passive. A ling-bling all-in that hits at 7:00 will crush them unless they made only 1 CC (not 2) and spent the rest of their resources on making an army and placing defensive measures ( not teching). Just get ~1.25 bases saturated and 1 gas (~23 drones), 2 queens, then start churning out units (bling nest at ~5:30). Hit at ~7:00. It doesn't even have to be all-in. Once the attack begins (at ~7:00), instead of making more zerglings, only make drones and voila! you macro out of what people call an "all-in." The army you already made is usually enough to overwhelm and kill the Terran, but even if you don't finish him off, you should be in a significant lead with the damage that you did (as long as you were macroing properly behind it). The problem with the TvZ Terran mass bio is that the Zerg is letting them expand quickly early on (and then, once the bio waves start coming, the Zerg continues to let them expand). Don't let them get an easy big early economy. Continue to deny/slow their expansions. This is what stops the bio, because even though you may be killing their constant bio armies, if you haven't stymied their economy then it will just continue indefinitely because bio is cheap, given its insane cost effectiveness (ie. with stim + heal-buses). 3cc with +-4 hellions, 1 bunker + wall and 1 tank holds this. But maybe I'm still stuck in wol building tanks lol.
Good to know, thanks! Yeah, I'm not used to T making a fast tank these days.
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I hope whoever wants to discuss balance over the next week or 2 is actually watching DreamHack right now and not going to rely on stats at the end. It looks really balanced to me, but there are a LOT of games to go through.
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Terran here.
Just gonna throw myself into the hellbats + medivacs being a bit too strong against light armor camp. You can have near perfect defense and still take damage.
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On April 27 2013 05:03 aksfjh wrote:
I hope whoever wants to discuss balance over the next week or 2 is actually watching DreamHack right now and not going to rely on stats at the end. It looks really balanced to me, but there are a LOT of games to go through.
I agree with you on this. It wasn't until I looked at the racial distribution that I noticed not many terrans have made it. It doesn't feel that way from watching the games. Every race has a few foreigners doing well, every races has some koreans struggling, and every race looks like they had to outplay the other races to win.
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On April 27 2013 08:09 lawlohwhat wrote:
Terran here.
Just gonna throw myself into the hellbats + medivacs being a bit too strong against light armor camp. You can have near perfect defense and still take damage.
Welcome to any Terran matchup. I still fear 8 marines much more than 2hellbats...
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Russian Federation125 Posts
2 terrans in ro16 DreamHack... Yeh, sure, terrans are imba ![[image loading]](http://chat.sc2tv.ru/img/yao.png?1)
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On April 27 2013 08:22 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 08:09 lawlohwhat wrote:
Terran here.
Just gonna throw myself into the hellbats + medivacs being a bit too strong against light armor camp. You can have near perfect defense and still take damage. Welcome to any Terran matchup. I still fear 8 marines much more than 2hellbats...
A marine drop with stim can't hit as early as a hellbat drop, and without stim they aren't too threatening, but I do agree. Maybe I just need to figure out a more effective way to scout, and then throw a bunker up in each mineral line or something. Still, the healing of the medivac seems too strong to me. Dunno.
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On April 27 2013 08:28 dargul wrote:2 terrans in ro16 DreamHack... Yeh, sure, terrans are imba
And 1 in RO8, who didn't make it.
I am the first to admit that one tournament doesn't tell you alot, and personally I also think just balancing for pro's isn't the way to go. However for the people who want to get medivacs nerfed, hellbats nerfed and widow mines nerfed, unless your goal is to cripple terran you then also really should suggest boosts to keep terran competitive.
While DH is only a single tournament, it does proof that Terran is at DreamHack level not significantly stronger than the other races, and more hints at something else.
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A marine drop with stim can't hit as early as a hellbat drop, and without stim they aren't too threatening, but I do agree. Maybe I just need to figure out a more effective way to scout, and then throw a bunker up in each mineral line or something. Still, the healing of the medivac seems too strong to me. Dunno.
Widow mine + turret is most effective imo. And have some marauders, then when medivac is down the worst your opponent can do is make you lose some mining time.
Edit: whoops that was meant to be editted in.
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1 month without watching any sc2, last I heard terran were supposed to win everything in HotS and needed nerfs, and zergs were UP.
I guess its the other way around like usual.
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On April 28 2013 04:52 Awatsu wrote:
1 month without watching any sc2, last I heard terran were supposed to win everything in HotS and needed nerfs, and zergs were UP.
I guess its the other way around like usual.
As has been discussed myriad times before on TL and elsewhere, Terran still being the only race using standard production mechanics means that long games where any kind of significant bank post-200/200 is involved are intrinisically weighed against them due to the comparative speed of reinforcement (and in Protoss' case, the ability to negate the defenders advantage to some degree).
Terran was strong early in HotS because Zergs and Protoss hadn't worked out how to deal with new Terran strategies and weren't keeping up with evolutions in Terran styles.
Now that they've caught up, the superior production mechanics of the other two races are re-asserting themselves in longer games/series.
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On April 28 2013 04:56 oGsTrueSmug wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 04:52 Awatsu wrote:
1 month without watching any sc2, last I heard terran were supposed to win everything in HotS and needed nerfs, and zergs were UP.
I guess its the other way around like usual. As has been discussed myriad times before on TL and elsewhere, Terran still being the only race using standard production mechanics means that long games where any kind of significant bank post-200/200 is involved are intrinisically weighed against them due to the comparative speed of reinforcement (and in Protoss' case, the ability to negate the defenders advantage to some degree). Terran was strong early in HotS because Zergs and Protoss hadn't worked out how to deal with new Terran strategies and weren't keeping up with evolutions in Terran styles. Now that they've caught up, the superior production mechanics of the other two races are re-asserting themselves in longer games/series.
These games Terrans are losing aren't making it to 200/200 even most of the time. The games are still relatively short and/or scrappy. Players are just learning how to adapt to stronger drops and widow mines. Right now (at DH at least), it's not that Terrans don't have other options, but likely that they invest too much in these tactics that are being hard countered, so end up losing at the midgame. There are probably more midgame options to be discovered, but we'll see.
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Dustin Browder and David Kim constantly stated that swarmhost is their favorite unit in HOTS because it feels new and zergy.
Yeah, right.
Swarmhost is now declared the most useless unit in the game.
There is zero successful swarmhost play since HOTS, except a couple of very cheesy and gimmick ones.
Not in SPL, not in GSTL, not in GSL, not in Dreamhack, not in WCS qualifiers.
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On April 28 2013 05:39 larse wrote:
Dustin Browder and David Kim constantly stated that swarmhost is their favorite unit in HOTS because it feels new and zergy.
Yeah, right.
Swarmhost is now declared the most useless unit in the game.
There is zero successful swarmhost play since HOTS, except a couple of very cheesy and gimmick ones.
Not in SPL, not in GSTL, not in GSL, not in Dreamhack, not in WCS qualifiers.
Swarmhosts are so bad. They have no purpose in the game, although the blizzard so clearly stated that they want to only keep units that have an actual role in the game. Haha, guess they failed on that part.
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Jaedong was going to beat Naniwa at DH, but then he made swarm hosts. I was like, wow, those swarm hosts are the only thing that could possibly keep Naniwa in the game and Jaedong was nice enough to make them.
Proxy oracle, the all in kind that hits at 6:30 is way overpowered. The problem with it is that it forces T to make at least 5 marines every game, or bunker their mineral line. Any T build that doesn't go 5 marines is coin flip and risks the P just winning outright between 6:30-7:00. It would be nice if T could go early marauders, or hellions. But either of those just risks P winning on a build order. Star gate or Oracle build times have got to go up to stop this nonsense. I can't believe they want to increase Oracle speed. That will just make the proxy stuff even more rigged.
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On April 28 2013 05:53 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
Jaedong was going to beat Naniwa at DH, but then he made swarm hosts. I was like, wow, those swarm hosts are the only thing that could possibly keep Naniwa in the game and Jaedong was nice enough to make them.
If JD never had success with swarmhosts, he wouldn't make them in a match worth at least $2.5k. Clearly he had a plan and they have worked in practice.
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On April 28 2013 05:39 larse wrote:
Dustin Browder and David Kim constantly stated that swarmhost is the their favorite unit in HOTS because it feels new and zergy.
Yeah, right.
Swarmhost is now declared the most useless unit in the game.
There is zero successful swarmhost play since HOTS, except a couple of very cheesy and gimmick ones.
Not in SPL, not in GSTL, not in GSL, not in Dreamhack, not in WCS qualifiers.
I like the concept of Swarm Host, it fits SC2 more so than the Lurker (the Lurker fit in BW but if you look at the unit itself, it's kind of a plain unit).
I definitely agree that I don't like the state of Swarm Hosts currently.
When they are useful (in ZvP for example, Zerg has half a map while Protoss has another half in some late game scenario) it becomes basically like BL/Infestor 2.0 (except with no fun Archon toilets) which is silly.
After watching lots of HotS, I feel ZvP and ZvZ and basically any match up that doesn't involve T doesn't feel that much better than HotS.
ZvZ is worse than WoL actually, and (despite the ZvZ hate, only due to the prevalence of it) I actually liked ZvZ and thought the match up had some potential. I'm a huge advocate of this but I'm for the simple and lazy way of just returning the Mutalisk micro mechanics back (which can be replicated, or something similar to an extent) and throwing in Scourge for BW style ZvZ. Now, this would make SC2 ZvZ like BW ZvZ "except" they have potential to even make it better than BW ZvZ by adding in more options. Even though there are currently mostly just Muta wars in ZvZ, there has been some games outside of that, which mean the potential for SC2 ZvZ to be better is high. (As for Scourge in other match ups? Well, Protoss could get Reaver in return >.>. Terran already has speed boost medivacs, so yeah.)
Hmm, Swarm Hosts... what to do with them. I wonder if the cost of Swarm Host should increase a bit but in return, they spawn 4 Locust at time (instead of 2). Swarm Hosts are currently one of those units where just 1 or 2 doesn't really do anything by itself (though I don't know if that's really a problem but it just feels weird). Actually I like the idea of making reduction the burrow time and/or increasing the speed. A single Swarm Host would be useful (and may have some interesting uses) if speed of Swarm Hosts were increased.
I like the concept of the Locust duration upgrade (as with any upgrades like that), as it allows Blizzard to better control the Swarm Host's tech tree availability (or rather, "efficiency" at a certain point in the game without having to restrict it to something like Hive for example). For example, if Swarm Hosts are too strong in the early game (through all ins) with a speed buff to Swarm Hosts (for example), then the duration upgrade for Locust could increase or take longer to compensate for that (and maybe Locust initial spawn time is lowered). This makes using Swarm Host early on, without the Locust upgrade a bit less "all or nothing" as you have better control of Swarm Hosts (they move faster, burrow faster... for the opponent, that means the Swarm Host need to come closer for them to attack you, giving you more ways to defend against it).
As for the problem of free units (and especially in the case of potential BL/Infestor 2.0). I wonder if Locust should cost a small amount of minerals (maybe something small like 2 minerals per spawn, to prevent late game turtling situations) actually but in return, the duration of the Locust should be increased and/or the cost of Swarm Hosts themselves should be lowered.
Anyway, HotS started off strong but things like Oracles (which I was excited about at first but not so much anymore), Tempest, aren't that great.
Widow Mines I feel are too random and too strong for their use.
I know some people mentioned this before but Reavers were "somewhat" random in BW but it was fun to play on both sides (against Reavers and if you controlled Reavers).
Scarabs moved slow enough that you could position and move units away to try to dud the Scarab blast (which happened often if the Scarab got stuck between structures or a unit it wasn't targeting/following).
That meant that both players (on both sides) could micro against and for the Reavers.
As a Protoss player, using Reavers and trying to have them target the best unit was also fun.
Widow Mines aren't really similar (the projectile moves too fast to reposition your units in most cases, and there isn't a lot of room for manually targeting in most cases).
If there is any BW unit that needs to return, it is the Reaver (maybe with Hold Fire and Weapons Free, the abilities from ghost to prevent auto attacking, so you can manually target fire with Reavers more often).
Reaver is probably one of the most unique and fun unit in any RTS.
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or you make just a turrent just in case and get the upgrades you would get anyway?
@SH
i don't like swarm hosts either, their design makes it that they are either super good or super bad there is no real in between.
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I reckon the problem with swarm host is that it just don't work well at a professional gamer level. it might be the lack of mobility, difficulty to know when to add how many swarm host, too easily to lose all the swarm host, too much babysitting etcetc
no offence to blade55555 who wrote a huge, extremely useful guide on swarm host builds etc, good to know it works at quite a high level.
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On April 28 2013 05:45 Sepi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 05:39 larse wrote:
Dustin Browder and David Kim constantly stated that swarmhost is their favorite unit in HOTS because it feels new and zergy.
Yeah, right.
Swarmhost is now declared the most useless unit in the game.
There is zero successful swarmhost play since HOTS, except a couple of very cheesy and gimmick ones.
Not in SPL, not in GSTL, not in GSL, not in Dreamhack, not in WCS qualifiers. Swarmhosts are so bad. They have no purpose in the game, although the blizzard so clearly stated that they want to only keep units that have an actual role in the game. Haha, guess they failed on that part.
Swarmhosts are not useless, but their main problem is, that they are super slow, immobile and have to be babysitted, so most pros prefer mutas in ZvT, but in ZvP they have their place.
They/Locust have great dps, can scout, are free units, and damage-absorbers. Especially mixed with some hydras they provide incredible dps and later you can pull collusi with vipers to their death.
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EPT
