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On April 28 2013 18:30 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 14:42 ETisME wrote:
I think then it's upto whether blizzard wants swarm host to be a ladder-only unit?
Personally I would love to see any korean have a specific swarm hosts build but it so far appears not gonna happen anytime soon Wait for stephano to show how to use them. Seriously, if there was no stephano, then in TvZ: - the ultra would be a ladder only unit - the roach + hydra composition would be a ladder only unit - the infestor would be a ladder only unit It took zergs more then a year to figure out that infestors are awesome. Same for ultralisks, and at then end of wol stephano finally showed that even roach hydra is viable.
your post makes no sense at all. Ultra's were commonly used all through out wings of lib, they were only good on some maps because they had bad AI bugged on non open maps.
Ultras were always use as a 2nd tech switch after broodlords, almost always. Ultras/roach/hydra always used in hots for now in pro matches.
Infestors were always used in WOL, and still used in hots in pro matches
there is a reason why swarm host is not used alot in top tier play, its because they are to situational.
Swarm host play relies on the map, and what unit comp you are facing.
Maps where you can just avoid the swarm host 100% such as whirlwind renders them almost useless no matter what.
Maps swarm host play is good on is on split maps. Swarm host for now are only strong vs protoss and only vs certain compositions.
And in the zvt match up, swarm host have only been great vs mech, every time a top Korean tried to use it vs bio, it failed. Bio is to mobile can pick up and avoid swarm host.
Infestors are a better way to help with mass mine play then swarm host, also infestors are more mobile.
dunno where you get "stephano shows us the way" Only thing he showed us was the zvp match up in WOL long time ago.
Swarm host are nice, but in the top tier of play, they are to much of a gas investment and a risk on many maps and vs many players.
even top tier Korean Protoss have been figuring out how to deal with swarm host pretty easy and building the right unit comp.
As you can see, heavy upgraded melee with mass queen is far more effective then swarm hosts these days.
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On April 29 2013 01:57 Grobbles wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 08:28 dargul wrote:2 terrans in ro16 DreamHack... Yeh, sure, terrans are imba ![[image loading]](http://chat.sc2tv.ru/img/yao.png?1) Lets be realistic, the terrans in the tournament weren't the best (excluding gumiho and polt) and the imbalance isn't at the highest level of play, its everywhere else, how do you expect bronze/silver and gold players to beat hellbat drops, or win engagements vs 6 widow mines when using units lings banes mutas. Only people with super great control can win these against this.
While I agree with you balance isn't only important on the pro-level, it also cannot be ignored there. And it is a bit interesting that quite some people here are advocating several heavy nerfs to the race which in the last major tournament managed to get one player to the RO8.
Considering terran has had enough to micro vs storms, banelings, etc, I think zerg survives some micro against mines. And believe it or not, but the things you are mentioning also take micro from the terran player. If you just drop hellbats in a mineral line they will do only very little damage: assuming there is a cannon/spine crawler. Simply because the hellbats will autoattack that. So you got to manually let them attack the drones, which can actually be quite irritating. Now hellbat drops become most dangerous when used at multiple locations at the same time. Do you see a bronze player manually targeting drones at different locations at the same time?
Then we got the widow mines. True, they don't require micro after being burrowed in the correct location. Picking the correct location is important, but no micro. However if you get surprised, you have to siege your tanks, stim your bio (while not letting them die to banelings/fungals), your silver player will have other stuff to do besides burrowing the widow mines. (I am masters and when that happens I got enough problems with it). Finally the effectiveness of widow mines does actually depend quite a bit on micro: yeah the amount of enemy units they kill not (well besides preventing them from blowing up on poking lings), but it does matter for the amount of friendly units they kill. In pro games the bio is always stutter stepping back over widow mines, who then proceed to kill lings/banelings (if it goes according to plan). However if you just have a bunch of marines + widow mines, and you a-move a bunch of speedlings, the widow mines will do alot of damage to the marines.
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On April 29 2013 02:42 SlixSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 22:34 FCReverie wrote:On April 28 2013 19:48 Ghanburighan wrote:
I'd just like to point out that a lot of Zergs should feel very embarrassed right about now.
- Can't beat Terran: Win last two major tournaments, taking out Gumiho and Flash in ZvT's. Winning tournaments doesn't mean anything. You can cherry pick any piece of data you want. Have you checked the tournament winrates for example? Something like 55% T 50% Z and 45% P. I'd just be interested to know where in the world you got these numbers from? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At0PE4rdhsI9dDE0cEprWkwwMGxQdTczTTlLNW1qX1E#gid=0Are you one of these people who are in the business of making up random statistics to prove a point?
Nope. The thing about statistics is that they change. The ones I had were from all of HotS so March to now. Yours would be more accurate but still really say the same thing that I just said :p
And the point was that you can cherry pick data, not that terran is op. I actually think the game is really balanced compared to WoL (though I think part of the problem in WoL was Terrans taking so long to adapt after buffs/nerfs and a sheer refusal to use ghosts agian in ZvT).
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On April 29 2013 03:50 LingBlingBling wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 18:30 Snowbear wrote:On April 28 2013 14:42 ETisME wrote:
I think then it's upto whether blizzard wants swarm host to be a ladder-only unit?
Personally I would love to see any korean have a specific swarm hosts build but it so far appears not gonna happen anytime soon Wait for stephano to show how to use them. Seriously, if there was no stephano, then in TvZ: - the ultra would be a ladder only unit - the roach + hydra composition would be a ladder only unit - the infestor would be a ladder only unit It took zergs more then a year to figure out that infestors are awesome. Same for ultralisks, and at then end of wol stephano finally showed that even roach hydra is viable. your post makes no sense at all. Ultra's were commonly used all through out wings of lib, they were only good on some maps because they had bad AI bugged on non open maps. Ultras were always use as a 2nd tech switch after broodlords, almost always. Ultras/roach/hydra always used in hots for now in pro matches. Infestors were always used in WOL, and still used in hots in pro matches there is a reason why swarm host is not used alot in top tier play, its because they are to situational. Swarm host play relies on the map, and what unit comp you are facing. Maps where you can just avoid the swarm host 100% such as whirlwind renders them almost useless no matter what. Maps swarm host play is good on is on split maps. Swarm host for now are only strong vs protoss and only vs certain compositions. And in the zvt match up, swarm host have only been great vs mech, every time a top Korean tried to use it vs bio, it failed. Bio is to mobile can pick up and avoid swarm host. Infestors are a better way to help with mass mine play then swarm host, also infestors are more mobile. dunno where you get "stephano shows us the way" Only thing he showed us was the zvp match up in WOL long time ago. Swarm host are nice, but in the top tier of play, they are to much of a gas investment and a risk on many maps and vs many players. even top tier Korean Protoss have been figuring out how to deal with swarm host pretty easy and building the right unit comp. As you can see, heavy upgraded melee with mass queen is far more effective then swarm hosts these days.
Double upgrade melee ZvT is standard up to now, though the gameplan changed. This stephano opening is still the same.
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On April 29 2013 04:48 FCReverie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 02:42 SlixSC wrote:On April 28 2013 22:34 FCReverie wrote:On April 28 2013 19:48 Ghanburighan wrote:
I'd just like to point out that a lot of Zergs should feel very embarrassed right about now.
- Can't beat Terran: Win last two major tournaments, taking out Gumiho and Flash in ZvT's. Winning tournaments doesn't mean anything. You can cherry pick any piece of data you want. Have you checked the tournament winrates for example? Something like 55% T 50% Z and 45% P. I'd just be interested to know where in the world you got these numbers from? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At0PE4rdhsI9dDE0cEprWkwwMGxQdTczTTlLNW1qX1E#gid=0Are you one of these people who are in the business of making up random statistics to prove a point? Nope. The thing about statistics is that they change. The ones I had were from all of HotS so March to now. Yours would be more accurate but still really say the same thing that I just said :p And the point was that you can cherry pick data, not that terran is op. I actually think the game is really balanced compared to WoL (though I think part of the problem in WoL was Terrans taking so long to adapt after buffs/nerfs and a sheer refusal to use ghosts agian in ZvT).
Yeah I think the actual problem is that you don't know what you are talking about.
And I'm sorry
55% T
50% Z
45% P
is NOT the same as
52% T
52%P
46%Z
I mean you have to actually be delusional to see much of a similarity in these statistics.
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On April 28 2013 17:58 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 17:51 DemigodcelpH wrote:On April 28 2013 15:05 Zarahtra wrote:On April 28 2013 14:38 DemigodcelpH wrote:On April 28 2013 06:11 Scones wrote:
I must be playing a different game to you all.
I am a mid-masters zerg player, and i think swarm hosts are awesome! It's the only way to beat a late game protoss or mech army very cost effectively My play with it has also been the same bordering on broken; the swarmhost does not need a buff in any shape or form. My experience against SH is really only that if you allow the zerg to stock pile gas, SH becomes an issue. Swarmhosts only cost 100 gas; they're easily massed and extremely effective able to more or less destroy anything on the ground (locusts even melt planetaries) with free units. You basically have to switch to air (generally not always possible) or base trade. Colossus, marines, marauders, tanks or just big enough armies of immortals/archons destroy them on the ground Unsupported yes (which you are an idiot if you send 12-14 swarm hosts to fight without support. That would be like sending 5 colossus to fight with no back up). Throw in a few vipers and some hydras and it is a completely different story. Immortal/archon or any gateway/colossus composition gets completely obliterated by swarm host/hydra/viper. The locusts basically fill the role of roaches but have the benefit being quickly replenished so you can pretty much constantly pressure with them.
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So, have Zergs in this thread changed their opinion of the balance of the game since release?
Late in the beta, most zerg professionals, commentators, and forum goers seemed to think that Skytoss was too strong, and Medivacs are widow mines were too effective.
Zerg has done well in tournaments since then. But have you changed your opinion? If not, what changes would make now?
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On April 29 2013 10:35 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 17:58 Big J wrote:On April 28 2013 17:51 DemigodcelpH wrote:On April 28 2013 15:05 Zarahtra wrote:On April 28 2013 14:38 DemigodcelpH wrote:On April 28 2013 06:11 Scones wrote:
I must be playing a different game to you all.
I am a mid-masters zerg player, and i think swarm hosts are awesome! It's the only way to beat a late game protoss or mech army very cost effectively My play with it has also been the same bordering on broken; the swarmhost does not need a buff in any shape or form. My experience against SH is really only that if you allow the zerg to stock pile gas, SH becomes an issue. Swarmhosts only cost 100 gas; they're easily massed and extremely effective able to more or less destroy anything on the ground (locusts even melt planetaries) with free units. You basically have to switch to air (generally not always possible) or base trade. Colossus, marines, marauders, tanks or just big enough armies of immortals/archons destroy them on the ground Unsupported yes (which you are an idiot if you send 12-14 swarm hosts to fight without support. That would be like sending 5 colossus to fight with no back up). Throw in a few vipers and some hydras and it is a completely different story. Immortal/archon or any gateway/colossus composition gets completely obliterated by swarm host/hydra/viper. The locusts basically fill the role of roaches but have the benefit being quickly replenished so you can pretty much constantly pressure with them.
of course it's not the same whether you fight against swarm hosts or whether you fight against viper/hydralisk/host...
Still I haven't seen a single situation in which a P or T "had to switch to air or basetrade" to deal with a composition involving swarm hosts.
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On April 29 2013 12:38 -_- wrote:
So, have Zergs in this thread changed their opinion of the balance of the game since release?
Late in the beta, most zerg professionals, commentators, and forum goers seemed to think that Skytoss was too strong, and Medivacs are widow mines were too effective.
Zerg has done well in tournaments since then. But have you changed your opinion? If not, what changes would make now?
I think the game is fine, and something are hard to deal with as zerg (mines & skytoss), but its dealable. Other races have some hard things to do to deal with zerg strategies (like hard tech switches for protoss).
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On April 29 2013 12:38 -_- wrote:
So, have Zergs in this thread changed their opinion of the balance of the game since release?
Late in the beta, most zerg professionals, commentators, and forum goers seemed to think that Skytoss was too strong, and Medivacs are widow mines were too effective.
Zerg has done well in tournaments since then. But have you changed your opinion? If not, what changes would make now?
I still think speedmedivac should receive some changes (some nerf basically, but not stats wise imo)
It's a little bit too risk free to do drop now since shutting down drops become harder. It's not just affecting TvZ, TvP also has this problem.
Not to mention the skill design feels kinda empty and lacking some depth. If the speed buff has some drawbacks or sideeffects, it would make the good players stand out even more.
there were some clever use of medivac drops for example, to draw the army away and then push out with the main army.
Now the drops are basically to trade efficiently again and again which feels less tactical
Also bio style is just too strong compared to mech, we really want some more diverse terran playstyle compared to bio mine style we are seeing almost every single TvZ.
I think I have read quite a lot of comments in live report thread also stating similar opinion that TvZ is just dropping and defending the whole game and it is getting boring
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On April 29 2013 02:42 SlixSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 22:34 FCReverie wrote:On April 28 2013 19:48 Ghanburighan wrote:
I'd just like to point out that a lot of Zergs should feel very embarrassed right about now.
- Can't beat Terran: Win last two major tournaments, taking out Gumiho and Flash in ZvT's. Winning tournaments doesn't mean anything. You can cherry pick any piece of data you want. Have you checked the tournament winrates for example? Something like 55% T 50% Z and 45% P. I'd just be interested to know where in the world you got these numbers from? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At0PE4rdhsI9dDE0cEprWkwwMGxQdTczTTlLNW1qX1E#gid=0Are you one of these people who are in the business of making up random statistics to prove a point?
Either I don't understand the data or a chunk of it is wrong. Mlg for example has 3 terran 0 zerg, in its column. Life won the tournament in a ZvT.
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On April 29 2013 16:07 FirstGear wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 02:42 SlixSC wrote:On April 28 2013 22:34 FCReverie wrote:On April 28 2013 19:48 Ghanburighan wrote:
I'd just like to point out that a lot of Zergs should feel very embarrassed right about now.
- Can't beat Terran: Win last two major tournaments, taking out Gumiho and Flash in ZvT's. Winning tournaments doesn't mean anything. You can cherry pick any piece of data you want. Have you checked the tournament winrates for example? Something like 55% T 50% Z and 45% P. I'd just be interested to know where in the world you got these numbers from? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At0PE4rdhsI9dDE0cEprWkwwMGxQdTczTTlLNW1qX1E#gid=0Are you one of these people who are in the business of making up random statistics to prove a point? Either I don't understand the data or a chunk of it is wrong. Mlg for example has 3 terran 0 zerg, in its column. Life won the tournament in a ZvT.
That would be MLG Winter Exhibition, ending April 12th, which MarineKing won. The only TvZ played was MKP vs. Bly. MLG Winter Championship, which you refer to, would have been in the March numbers.
I think again that judging balance of the game is difficult right now, only a good month and a half after the expansion's release. As it was often the case in WoL, Terrans found interesting applications for their units fast. That gave them an edge in the first weeks of play, but it would already seem that both Protoss and Zerg found ways to deal with the problem. Winrates start to even out, and you see a lot of games where Terrans go for Mines and Hellbats and are utterly crushed, often even by just slightly adapted WoL strategies.
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On April 29 2013 16:02 ETisME wrote:
[
Also bio style is just too strong compared to mech, we really want some more diverse terran playstyle compared to bio mine style we are seeing almost every single TvZ.
Mech is in a terrible spot right now indeed. The expansion gave Terran two new factory units, but both do not synergize at all with mech play, but are much better incorporated in the standard MMM ball. On the other hand, all three races were given insanely powerful tools against mech with medivac speed (widening the mobility gap between bio and mech), the Tempest (mech against protoss was always difficult, but against Skytoss it is just stupid) and foremost the Viper (basically hardcountering any mech strategy on the spot).
I was using a lot of Thor-Hellion-Tank against Zerg during the second half of WoL, which was super fun to play. Now, I have to rely on microing my MMM ball in pretty much any matchup, using pretty much the same build (1 Rax expo into 5-1-1) against everything.
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On April 29 2013 16:02 ETisME wrote:
Also bio style is just too strong compared to mech, we really want some more diverse terran playstyle compared to bio mine style we are seeing almost every single TvZ.
I think I have read quite a lot of comments in live report thread also stating similar opinion that TvZ is just dropping and defending the whole game and it is getting boring
This is just the consequence of basing the game around (re)production instead of keeping units alive. Bio has the core unit of the Marine and it can be produced in massive numbers with reactors ... just like all the new low tech units from the Factory can ... so it is really the only way to go if you think you might lose a fight and still want to be able to come back. The constant harrassment is a necessity against Zerg because of the potential to mass up a huge economy and production. All in all it is a rather bad design choice because of these restraints put on the players.
Blizzard can NOT increase the power of mech units by what would be needed to make it equally viable, because it would end up with overpowered units ... so we will have to live with mech being only barely viable instead of a full alternative to bio.
The only thing I am asking myself is when or if Blizzard will ever acknowledge this problem ...
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On April 29 2013 16:02 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 12:38 -_- wrote:
So, have Zergs in this thread changed their opinion of the balance of the game since release?
Late in the beta, most zerg professionals, commentators, and forum goers seemed to think that Skytoss was too strong, and Medivacs are widow mines were too effective.
Zerg has done well in tournaments since then. But have you changed your opinion? If not, what changes would make now? I still think speedmedivac should receive some changes (some nerf basically, but not stats wise imo) It's a little bit too risk free to do drop now since shutting down drops become harder. It's not just affecting TvZ, TvP also has this problem. Not to mention the skill design feels kinda empty and lacking some depth. If the speed buff has some drawbacks or sideeffects, it would make the good players stand out even more. there were some clever use of medivac drops for example, to draw the army away and then push out with the main army. Now the drops are basically to trade efficiently again and again which feels less tactical Also bio style is just too strong compared to mech, we really want some more diverse terran playstyle compared to bio mine style we are seeing almost every single TvZ. I think I have read quite a lot of comments in live report thread also stating similar opinion that TvZ is just dropping and defending the whole game and it is getting boring
Drops already require map awareness and speed, and we've seen that good players can stop them, quite well. The overall drawback is that you have 10 supply in a 150 health tin can, and the boost is just part of that overall equation. It was a bad situation in WoL where your drops could be spotted halfway across the map and now you're screwed, and in HotS it seems much more fair with the boost since it still gives you a chance to do something.
And bio isn't "too strong," but mech is weak. I don't see that changing though, not with Blizzard's stated intentions.
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All factory units are useful, I don't understand the obsession with having pure mech. I think Blizzard is better off with the current design where units can be mixed and matched and all have some sort of utility.
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On April 30 2013 21:51 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 16:02 ETisME wrote:
Also bio style is just too strong compared to mech, we really want some more diverse terran playstyle compared to bio mine style we are seeing almost every single TvZ.
I think I have read quite a lot of comments in live report thread also stating similar opinion that TvZ is just dropping and defending the whole game and it is getting boring This is just the consequence of basing the game around (re)production instead of keeping units alive. Bio has the core unit of the Marine and it can be produced in massive numbers with reactors ... just like all the new low tech units from the Factory can ... so it is really the only way to go if you think you might lose a fight and still want to be able to come back. The constant harrassment is a necessity against Zerg because of the potential to mass up a huge economy and production. All in all it is a rather bad design choice because of these restraints put on the players. Blizzard can NOT increase the power of mech units by what would be needed to make it equally viable, because it would end up with overpowered units ... so we will have to live with mech being only barely viable instead of a full alternative to bio. The only thing I am asking myself is when or if Blizzard will ever acknowledge this problem ...
You do not have to increase the power of mech units per se to compensate for their slow production - The deal with gas-heavy, high-tech armies was always that you have to keep them alive to be viable using them. What breaks the deal is the increased power of strategies against mech; if you can trade cost-effectively against a mech army, the meching player is at a huge disadvantage. This used to be only the case if you cought the mech army in a bad spot, due to mistakes by the meching player. Of which there were many, because it is not easy to position your mech army well; as it should not be.
Yet with the current tools available against mech - especially the viper - the high-tech army does not have to make any mistakes to be eliminated completely; a couple of abducts and blinding clouds will do that for you. I just don't get what was wrong with mech in WoL to necessitate putting in brand new counters to it into HotS.
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On April 30 2013 22:31 Grumbels wrote:
All factory units are useful, I don't understand the obsession with having pure mech. I think Blizzard is better off with the current design where units can be mixed and matched and all have some sort of utility.
Because of the different upgrade trees, Terran is pretty much designed to commit to mech or bio; mixing both has inherent disadvantages. Plus, having an ocean of metal at your command rocks.
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On April 30 2013 22:31 Grumbels wrote:
All factory units are useful, I don't understand the obsession with having pure mech.
Thing is, mech is more than "using Factory units".
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On April 30 2013 22:39 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 22:31 Grumbels wrote:
All factory units are useful, I don't understand the obsession with having pure mech. Thing is, mech is more than "using Factory units".
That sounds very metaphysical, but please continue...
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EPT
