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On July 30 2012 08:01 ysnake wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 06:33 Shiori wrote:
I want to see a Zerg prove to me how the Roach is not cost-efficient against Protoss next time they say their units are weak but numerous. If there were no Force Fields, Roaches would be overpowered, and are very cost efficient in straight up battle, but due to Force Fields, they can become very cost inefficient, that depends on where the Protoss engages and how good he is at protecting his army from the Zerg flood. Someone up there posted a resource ratio between a Sentry and a Roach. Yes, indeed, Sentries cost a lot more, but 2 Sentries can render triple the army cost useless, so they pay for themselves in that manner, they are not a fighting unit, they are a spell caster. I've lost too many times to a Protoss player that Force Fields my ramp and almost my entire army is stuck in my base or outside of my base without any possibility of getting in.
Force fields are limited though, and there are quite a few instances of Protoss defending well until Sentry energy is out, and then they completely crumble. To be fair, in terms of cost efficiency, it might not be that cost efficient for Zerg, and the best Protoss players seem to have this defense down anyways.
Looking outside just engagements though, the Roaches are (currently) proving to be a very effective way to keep Protoss away from you as you set up for the late game infestor broodlord army unless you commit too much and get left with nothing to defend during the window between start of hive and broodlords.
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On July 30 2012 08:01 ysnake wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 06:33 Shiori wrote:
I want to see a Zerg prove to me how the Roach is not cost-efficient against Protoss next time they say their units are weak but numerous. I've lost too many times to a Protoss player that Force Fields my ramp and almost my entire army is stuck in my base or outside of my base without any possibility of getting in.
That is because of your own stupidity, not because of the Protoss doing something.
Forcefields do not render any portion of your army "useless." You know what renders part of an army useless? Killing it. The Roaches that are out of range are not useless. They are out of range. It's about time that Zergs started following the example of DRG/Stephano and stopped butting heads against FFs, instead pulling back and waiting them out. Sentries are only actually good in chokes and in high numbers. They're also an extra unit that does almost no damage, is extremely immobile, and is extremely expensive that Protoss must invest in if they want to live. Imagine you had to get a unit that cost a bunch of money to stop your Larvae from randomly exploding or something. Yeah. This is why Protoss can't tech and expand safely at the same time, whereas Zerg can. Hell, Zerg can tech, expand, and attack all at the same time if they so desire.
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On July 30 2012 06:33 Shiori wrote:
I want to see a Zerg prove to me how the Roach is not cost-efficient against Protoss next time they say their units are weak but numerous.
That's the major flaw in the design of Starcraft 2 regarding zerg for me.
How are you supposed to swarm with cost effective, supply ineffective units ? That's retarded.
Terran is the swarmy race of startcraft 2.
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On July 30 2012 08:32 Lixo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 06:33 Shiori wrote:
I want to see a Zerg prove to me how the Roach is not cost-efficient against Protoss next time they say their units are weak but numerous. That's the major flaw in the design of Starcraft 2 regarding zerg for me. How are you supposed to swarm with cost effective, supply ineffective units ? That's retarded. Terran is the swarmy race of startcraft 2.
It's because Zergs cried too much in Beta and got everything buffed to the point where there's nothing you can do to actually keep them from just Droning to 80 and taking 100 bases. I like to call this the Idra effect.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On July 30 2012 08:30 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 08:01 ysnake wrote:On July 30 2012 06:33 Shiori wrote:
I want to see a Zerg prove to me how the Roach is not cost-efficient against Protoss next time they say their units are weak but numerous. I've lost too many times to a Protoss player that Force Fields my ramp and almost my entire army is stuck in my base or outside of my base without any possibility of getting in. That is because of your own stupidity, not because of the Protoss doing something. Forcefields do not render any portion of your army "useless." You know what renders part of an army useless? Killing it. The Roaches that are out of range are not useless. They are out of range. It's about time that Zergs started following the example of DRG/Stephano and stopped butting heads against FFs, instead pulling back and waiting them out. Sentries are only actually good in chokes and in high numbers. They're also an extra unit that does almost no damage, is extremely immobile, and is extremely expensive that Protoss must invest in if they want to live. Imagine you had to get a unit that cost a bunch of money to stop your Larvae from randomly exploding or something. Yeah. This is why Protoss can't tech and expand safely at the same time, whereas Zerg can. Hell, Zerg can tech, expand, and attack all at the same time if they so desire.
Mate, I know all about how annoying it can be to control the fragile zapping guns called Sentries, I played Protoss as my first race before I switched to Zerg (got too annoyed of stim timings and how hard it is to hold it off with Gateway units).
I got to high Diamond with ease though, going 2base Colossus every game and Force Fields win the game for me, I knew where I wanted to fight, and that's what I did, almost all top Protoss players I see nowadays are doing this. Immortals are VERY good against Roaches, therefore, it is not even up for discussion, and they can tank quite a lot of damage.
Protoss has the ability to control how many units he fights, if the Zerg decides to pull back, you will get some free kills at the cost of energy, which is basically free.
You can easily separate the army (that's the whole point of aggressive Force Fielding now is it?) and fight each segment at a time. You do not render them useless for the entire game, just for enough time so that you don't crumble by sheer Zerg numbers.
I wouldn't go as far as to say that my own "stupidity" is the key to how someone dropped Warp Prism full of Sentries and just continued to warp in units, but thanks for that anyhow.
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On July 30 2012 08:48 ysnake wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 08:30 Shiori wrote:On July 30 2012 08:01 ysnake wrote:On July 30 2012 06:33 Shiori wrote:
I want to see a Zerg prove to me how the Roach is not cost-efficient against Protoss next time they say their units are weak but numerous. I've lost too many times to a Protoss player that Force Fields my ramp and almost my entire army is stuck in my base or outside of my base without any possibility of getting in. That is because of your own stupidity, not because of the Protoss doing something. Forcefields do not render any portion of your army "useless." You know what renders part of an army useless? Killing it. The Roaches that are out of range are not useless. They are out of range. It's about time that Zergs started following the example of DRG/Stephano and stopped butting heads against FFs, instead pulling back and waiting them out. Sentries are only actually good in chokes and in high numbers. They're also an extra unit that does almost no damage, is extremely immobile, and is extremely expensive that Protoss must invest in if they want to live. Imagine you had to get a unit that cost a bunch of money to stop your Larvae from randomly exploding or something. Yeah. This is why Protoss can't tech and expand safely at the same time, whereas Zerg can. Hell, Zerg can tech, expand, and attack all at the same time if they so desire. Mate, I know all about how annoying it can be to control the fragile zapping guns called Sentries, I played Protoss as my first race before I switched to Zerg (got too annoyed of stim timings and how hard it is to hold it off with Gateway units). I got to high Diamond with ease though, going 2base Colossus every game and Force Fields win the game for me, I knew where I wanted to fight, and that's what I did, almost all top Protoss players I see nowadays are doing this. Immortals are VERY good against Roaches, therefore, it is not even up for discussion, and they can tank quite a lot of damage. Protoss has the ability to control how many units he fights, if the Zerg decides to pull back, you will get some free kills at the cost of energy, which is basically free. You can easily separate the army (that's the whole point of aggressive Force Fielding now is it?) and fight each segment at a time. You do not render them useless for the entire game, just for enough time so that you don't crumble by sheer Zerg numbers. I wouldn't go as far as to say that my own "stupidity" is the key to how someone dropped Warp Prism full of Sentries and just continued to warp in units, but thanks for that anyhow.
Nobody does 2base Colossus anymore...
Immortals are a sunk cost against Zerg. You get them because you're all-inning or because they alternative is to die. It's fucking retarded that a 3base Zeg can force a 2base Protoss into Robo tech every single game just by making Roaches and Lings. Is there any particular reason that Protoss Gateway units shouldn't be enough (especially off of 6+ Gates) to beat the lowest tier Zerg composition? It's just another example of Zerg dictating the flow of the matchup. Protoss can never go Stargate or Templar or whatever openings because Roach/Ling is so fucking good against Gateway units.
It's actually funny because Zergs have, in the past, whined about a similar dynamic: Stargate. Remember when Zergs thought the only option was to go Hydralisks when they saw a Stargate? Remember how annoying that was? Being forced into a tech that you didn't necessarily want, having your composition totally exposed, and being opened up to followup attacks? That's what Roach/Ling (hell, even the possibility of Roach/Ling) does in every single PvZ. Protoss has to get a Robo sooner or later unless he's all-inning. Every time. Every. Single. Time. Now, this isn't necessarily a bad thing, because the Robo is useful in its own right, but it's stupid that Zerg is able to know this with absolute certainty and immediately punish any deviations.
Like, going Roach/Ling costs a Zerg player essentially nothing. If you want to go Muta/Ling, you can forgo the Roach Warren without really being open to anything aside from the earlier all-ins. But the Protoss still needs that Robo. Every game, you need that Robo pretty early. How are we supposed to innovate when getting a bunch of Sentries and Immortals is the only way to hold a third base? Why is Zerg allowed to get 3 bases of production up for free, and, if they are supposed to be allowed to get this, why are their units just as good as the basic Protoss units? I could understand the argument that Zerg needs a third to make up for its relatively weak units, but honestly, their units aren't weak! Roach/Ling is fucking amazing. It's sure as hell a lot between than Stalker/Zealot or Stalker/Sentry, which is why Protoss players need to delay their third till 7-10 minutes, get a bunch of Gateways, get all their gases, make a Robotics Facility, and then push out, because for all they know the Zerg could see them and instantly pump out 50 Zerglings.
You know what happens when a Terran or Protoss player scouts a Zerg at 10 minutes and sees they're being greedy? We kick ourselves, because we know there's nothing we can do about it now, since we need to build the infrastructure in advance if we want to do a pressure. For Zerg, it's as simple as "oh, he's being greedy; I'll just take my finger off the D key and set it on the R/Z keys."
The biggest problem with the Zerg race in general is that they just dictate the entire game in both non-mirror matchups, and it's getting worse. They can force reactions, but every time Protoss/Terran learn a reliable way to force a reaction, Zergs say it's unfair because it's predictable. You thought Hellion games were boring and that it was unfair that the Terran had a risk free way of containing you? Welcome to what ever PvZ that I don't 2base in is like. The mere possibility of getting hit with an Inject's worth of units means that I need to make absolutely sure that I can defend any expansion or tech I try to take.
These fundamental design flaws mean that Zerg is inevitably going to be the strongest race as the game gets figured out more, just because they're the race that benefits from standard play the most, and because apparently Blizzard thinks that standard play should be really easy for them but hard for everyone else.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
You are arguing like the PvZ MU is extremely Zerg favored, it definitely is not.
First of all, Stargate still does a lot of damage if certain things are not done right by the Zerg. It is never intended to outright kill the Zerg, it is intended to hinder him and delay his timings if possible, especially if he has not connected creep to his third base.
Second of all, you might as well say the same "Gateway units suck" analogy in PvT match-up. Minus Templars and Archons of course, but both are good in PvZ as well, especially if the Zerg went Ling/Muta. It's not that the Zerg controls the pace of the game constantly, you make a Colossi, we need a Spire for that, Zerg went mass Muta, you want Blink and Archons for that, etc etc. That's how the game is played, you have to respond to certain moves your enemy makes, otherwise everyone would be playing the "pace-giver" race and just mindfuck each other out.
You gave up on trying to make a point and just went on to rant about Zerg being imbalanced. Roach/Ling is good, indeed, but again, if you let that force hug your army, it's your own fault. Yes, Starcraft 2 is a game where 1 mistake can lead to a gg, but that's how the game is played out.
Later on, you went on ranting about how you need a Robotics Facility, yes, indeed, you need Tier 2 units instead of only Tier 1. "But herp-derp Zerg only makes Tier 1 stupid units lolol because they stoopid", no, it is because Tier 2 units for Zerg are the following: Mutalisk, Corruptor, Infestor and Hydralisk, none of which are beefy like Immortals, and Mutalisk is a harass unit, bad at direct engagements (unless in critical numbers, like 25+), Corruptors are only good against Colossi and for Corruption on important units like Immortals or Archons (but still using Tier 1 units for damage), Infestors are not that imbalanced in PvZ until late game when a chain fungal can screw up a small ball of Stalkers (but I haven't seen this in a pro game for god knows how long), Hydralisks are Hydralisks, godawful.
Now you understand why Zerg sticks to Tier 1 units, basically, all Zergs go Tier 1 -> Infestors -> Tier 3, they want to win with Tier 1 because of numbers and then they get Tier 3 (Brood Lords come after Protoss gets their death ball unless the Zerg is rushing Hive, but such a statement is very situational) they get beefy immobile death ball of their own.
Many Protoss rage at me on ladder, and I kept wondering why, then I figured out. They all BLINDLY go Immortal/Sentry allin, not even making an Observer most of the games, squeezing another Sentry out instead, fine, but I do not go Stephano style in PvZ (which Immortal/Sentry counters). I play Muta/Ling (depends on the map, but even on maps like Cloud Kingdom I manage to pull it off against Protoss that just blindly went for a build that is countered by mine). Then again, is that my problem that his only field of vision was knowing where I spawned? No, it is not.
You mentioned about "kicking yourself" after seeing a Zerg taking a third or a fourth base and that you have to build "infrastructure" for that. Anything in this game that is scouted too late (and can turn tides) means that you played badly. If a Zerg did not scout his Protoss opponent and suddenly Protoss comes out with 3 Colossi. Does a Zerg player have time to respond to that? No, he does not, because a Spire is 100 seconds build time and a Corruptor is 40 (if I am not mistaken). Should a Zerg go around and yell that this guy killed him because he did not scout him? No, it's your own fault.
I am sorry, but in what Starcraft universe does a Zerg player freely leave a Hatchery, Drones and Extractors without defense? You see 3 Zerg bases like that, pause the game, go out, high five strangers and make DTs, same thing as Zerg does when a Protoss or a Terran player (without Planetary) leaves their door open. Zerg cannot wall off, while other races can, and if Zerg could wall off, they would be killing themselves, they want open field, not small narrow openings (hence why Entombed is the second map all Zergs veto, first being Tal'Darim).
Let me come back to your first part of the post, you say that "Zerg knows what to expect from the Protoss" (paraphrased), well that's what "metagame" is. That's like saying "Zerg knows I will Forge Fast Expand, this is ridiculous", no, you are just following that path. I can't remember the names (too tired atm), but I think it was Stephano vs Oz game where Oz went for crazy fast third (considering the current metagame) and fourth base. Stephano did not expect this and could not punish him as he was following the standard metagame style and Oz went on to crush Stephano.
I am not sure as to whether why I have replied to your post with a lengthy post of my own, but at many points, you are wrong. PvZ is a very balanced match-up, no one likes the current "ok, no attacking before 10min" treaty but that's how it is, you can try and break the metagame, throw Zergs off guard who expected this. When I want to play mind games with my opponent I stay on 2base and they are wondering what the hell am I doing (besides 2base Muta).
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Protoss is always going to feel slow at getting up tech/expansions because of the sentry. For as long as Tosses require such a gas intensive unit for defense against low/no gas units, the race will never be as free to do what it wants. No other race even has the option to spend that much gas on a unit so early, which allows them to focus on other things. And the worst part is, the sentry is only good for it's abilities. It could be mistaken for a HT with how much DPS it does. Such reliance is crippling too many interesting possibilities.
Now I hate that we have to wait until the expansion, but in HotS, this should change. The mothership core will be able to energize a single sentry to full energy, turning one sentry into essentially 4 for base defense purposes in the early game. That saves 300 gas right there. And then you think about what that gas can go? Or now that you don't need that gas so early, you can get up a third base quicker, and need fewer sentries to defend that as well.
Protoss design has led to an in-game progression that is far too linear throughout the history of SC2, and finally the other races are capitalizing on it. HotS will give toss some much needed resource flexibility in the early game, where they desperately need it.
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On July 30 2012 08:19 Mogget wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 06:27 BeyondCtrL wrote:
The balance is quite OK at the moment in all the match ups at the moment since anyone can win at any time, but the quality of the balance and how interesting the games are based on it is arguable, particularly vZ MUs. We are experiencing a Z dominance for the moment because of a psychological momentum gained from the buff and recent surge of victories. In a game where confidence is so vital it can make a race appear "OP". You have to admit that there are a lot of P and T that are playing from a position of inferior confidence.
Even watching these MUs it becomes even more painfully clear where you are watching, what feels like, an uphill battle where P and T are thinking: i) Oh no I can't let Z be to comfy early-mid game I have to harass or do some timing. ii) I can't compete with their late game army which is so powerful how do I not die until the late-late game? iii) I'm trying a lot of new/adjusted builds and nothing is working, what can I do? Consider, especially, iii, where T and P are trying to adjust to this new Zerg dominance. You can't expect to miraculously find a build to counter their style, there are going to be a lot of failures, especially as the game matures it becomes progressively harder and harder to iron out new builds. This repeated failure definitely causes damage to confidence in players.
Now lets consider the actual balance. When you consider the armies it's quite clear that both Terran and Protoss are more cost efficient and thus Zerg need more units to be competitive. As many people have pointed out in this thread there seems to be a slight advantage for the Zerg in this regard because they can make too many units. Thus the cost efficiency of the other two armies are greatly reduced. We can rule out an imbalance in the unit department and hone into the macro mechanics. Zergs should be ahead in the supply count and base count but at the moment it seems that the supply count is a bit too high. This allows the Zerg to control the game from early to late game which then tapers off at the late-late game. We know there are some really powerful builds that can really kill the Zerg which can't be ignored but we also need to acknowledge the lack of choice for the other races in more standard/macro builds to be competitive. This is why we see a lot of these timing builds off 2 bases mostly because they are the most cost efficient.
This is not a statement of Zerg being immune to anything thrown at them but rather a consideration of whether a larva minimal early game defense is beneficial. If we can compare to BW for a moment we can see that larva management was a lot more crucial in all stages of the game. With queens being quite good at holding off practically all early game pressures a lot of the hard decisions of larva management are downplayed. I do not feel like, after some thought, that a nerf to queens or larva inject is needed. What I feel like is needed are small adjustments.
Remove queen range and make it an upgrade from the hatchery. Even though the range buff affects the hellion openings most directly it also makes the queen a lot more effective in all base defense engagements. By making it a researchable upgrade it doesn't revert any buff and still allows at least a good defense against the powerful hellion openings. The pro side of this is that Zerg has to invest at least something and is a perfect option to either get or ignore - not something gained for something completely free (thinking off concussive shells). Obviously it should be cheap but should cost some gas with a timing not too fast but something any Zerg can comfortably attain as a reward when they scout properly, or deadly if they do not. I feel like this would put a greater emphasis on better scouting from the Zerg and more intense denying of it by the Terran. It would add to the skill cap and open up the strategy rather than completely removing it.
Even though Zergs can power very hard on drones and really dominate the macro game it can't be directly blamed on larva inject. Nerfing larva inject would make those devastating 2-base all ins unstoppable and thus imbalanced. Still we are left with the fact that Zergs have a bit more than is balanced. In my opinion this is because Zergs can take a 3rd extremely quickly and hold it easily in standard conditions. Since Zergs need to be a base ahead to be cost efficient that being able to hold that 3rd should be easy and hard to be taken down by the P/T. This leaves the the timing of the 3rd as suspect. We all know too well how Zerg can massively out supply their opponents and it really boils down to the time it takes for them to take and fully saturate that 3rd. This allows an explosion of supply compared to the opponent. It doesn't last forever but it does accelerate the production a bit too far and creates too much pressure for the opponent which forces 2 base timings. The easiest way to delay the timing of the 3rd would be to incorporate destructible rocks or neutral buildings at the 3rd.
This results in, unlike a nerf to larva inject, no production nerf in the early or late game which the Zerg needs. There is the consideration that this would make the 2 base all ins against the Zerg slightly stronger, and honestly more attractive (also consider that it's very map dependent), however, on the other side it relieves that time bomb pressure and makes the avenues of mid game pressures/skirmishes instead of all ins a lot more attractive. Better players who are confident will in most cases opt for longer macro based games coupled with the option of mid-game skirmishing will result in less boring all ins and more exiting mid-games which transition into better late games.
Now I'd like to discuss the Infestor ability fungal. I personally feel quite torn on it and consider my aforementioned solutions quite adequate. Still it seems that this ability is quite controversial and vehemently discussed across the community. If we look at the history of fungal and Infestors it's actually quite comical really: even though fungal was changed from an 8s root and received buffed damage in return, in an era where Infestors were barely used because they were "crap", I would wager that practically all Zergs would want the old 1.0 fungal if they had a choice. Infestors went from completely underused and under appreciated to the staple unit of the Zerg in ALL match ups. Though somewhat akin to FF in the fact that it disables micro the biggest difference between them is that FF does not disable abilities, movement, or deal direct damage in a large area. We can see now that there are plenty of ways to counter act FF smartly even if they are placed well. The fungal is instant and disables some abilities, movement, and deals direct damage.
One of the greatest synergies of fungal, especially since Infestors are core units in every MU, is how it allows Zergs to completely own the air in cooperation with Corruptors. Corruptors already defeat the AA of the other factions cost effectively even without using their corrupt ability and when they engage in conjunction with fungals there are very few options for either P/T to engage Zergs in the air. What this results is in the removal of many strategies that could be utilized through more air play. I think that fungals not rooting air units should be tested on the PTR at least (damage unchanged). Even though Carriers/BC+Ravens are quite potent P/T still has to invest a lot of infrastructure while Broodlords being standard in ZvP/T allows Z the ability to create a lot of Corruptors to compete. This would open up more viable avenues to approach that BL/Infestor army. Awesome well thought out post, ignored. Welcome to the balance thread! I agree with lots of it, although as a toss, i dont think removing fungal rooting air would be balanced. I always used to play a pheonix to force hydra while teching to colossus style, which stomped right up untill zergs started using fungals to deal with air  Perhaps the opposite with rooting in place but no damage to air? that would give zergs a micro advantage in air, but not increase total dps stomp for air vs air domination? That might still be too strong, but at least it might promote some intersting play? What do you think? EDIT: Btw, when i say still too strong, i mean too strong of a nerf to fungal vs air, NOT that even with that nerf, fungal would still be too strong
Thanks.
The thing is that good Zergs make quite a few queens when they scout air play. Coupled with a couple of spores it can shut down air very effectively and cost 0 gas. In addition they will know that your ground army will be a lot weaker so can opt to easily replace drones without fear of too much reprisal. A good defense with queens and spores until the spire/infestation pit pops is not too difficult and once a few corruptors or infestors are out it's lights out.
My thoughts were more directed at the late game viability for sky strategies against Zerg where actually having Voidrays/Banshees+Vikings would be possible. Infestors and corruptors shut down air play way too hard and effectively.
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It basically all comes down to infestors being the counter to everything again. They are just too damn good at what they do. At the moment, the ideal zerg situation is to build infestors to deal with everything, plus whatever good units are around at their level of tech. If infestors were T1, you'd have zergs holding entire protoss timings with 3 of the things plus some slow zerglings.
I think the nerf is going to come to fungal and it's probably going to result in zerg having trouble holding protoss air timings again with void rays into colossi. Which is fine, tbh. You shouldn't be able to hold off an entire tech route with 3 queens and a pair of spore crawlers while getting 80 drones and teching to an autohold. Hydras/corruptors should be the answer, and the crutch. Not infestors.
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On July 30 2012 13:43 Evangelist wrote:
It basically all comes down to infestors being the counter to everything again. They are just too damn good at what they do. At the moment, the ideal zerg situation is to build infestors to deal with everything, plus whatever good units are around at their level of tech. If infestors were T1, you'd have zergs holding entire protoss timings with 3 of the things plus some slow zerglings.
I think the nerf is going to come to fungal and it's probably going to result in zerg having trouble holding protoss air timings again with void rays into colossi. Which is fine, tbh. You shouldn't be able to hold off an entire tech route with 3 queens and a pair of spore crawlers while getting 80 drones and teching to an autohold. Hydras/corruptors should be the answer, and the crutch. Not infestors.
There isn't going to be a fungal-nerf. Just saying.
Hydras should never be the answer, they are the worst unit in this game. Corruptors are actually bad against mass voidray, and are thus only made to counter colossi / carrier.
Fungal wouldn't counter Protoss units if you guys learned to split your armies a bit. Pre-split I mean, Terrans have done it for over a year already. Fungal alone tickes protoss units, its the ability to fungal the whole protoss ball with one fungal and then just keep going which makes the fungal so "good".
Lategame, its not the fungal which does the damage, it's the broodlords. Fungal is just keeping the stalkers from killing the broodlords instantly with blink. Its a forcefield, which cant be crushed.
E: The marine of the Zerg.
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On July 30 2012 14:00 Pinna wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 13:43 Evangelist wrote:
It basically all comes down to infestors being the counter to everything again. They are just too damn good at what they do. At the moment, the ideal zerg situation is to build infestors to deal with everything, plus whatever good units are around at their level of tech. If infestors were T1, you'd have zergs holding entire protoss timings with 3 of the things plus some slow zerglings.
I think the nerf is going to come to fungal and it's probably going to result in zerg having trouble holding protoss air timings again with void rays into colossi. Which is fine, tbh. You shouldn't be able to hold off an entire tech route with 3 queens and a pair of spore crawlers while getting 80 drones and teching to an autohold. Hydras/corruptors should be the answer, and the crutch. Not infestors. There isn't going to be a fungal-nerf. Just saying. Hydras should never be the answer, they are the worst unit in this game. Corruptors are actually bad against mass voidray, and are thus only made to counter colossi / carrier. Fungal wouldn't counter Protoss units if you guys learned to split your armies a bit. Pre-split I mean, Terrans have done it for over a year already. Fungal alone tickes protoss units, its the ability to fungal the whole protoss ball with one fungal and then just keep going which makes the fungal so "good". Lategame, its not the fungal which does the damage, it's the broodlords. Fungal is just keeping the stalkers from killing the broodlords instantly with blink. Its a forcefield, which cant be crushed. E: The marine of the Zerg.
Come on, you don't really think that protosses have never learned how to split their armies do you? There is a reason why fungal counters protoss units, and that is because toss units are BAD when they are split up. The design of the race dictates that toss needs to stay together. The colossus ruins gameplay and 99% of protosses hate it. You need anti air to protect your colossi (the only respectable DPS in your arsenal), so you have to just sit in a ball with your stalkers underneath them.
Now I agree that tosses could presplit their voidrays, but there's a reason why no one goes mass voidrays lategame anymore. Voidrays have been nerfed into the ground. They have pitiful DPS and one can barely kill a queen nowadays. Void rays have a terrible design in that they almost never charge up before they die. And with their speed upgrade gone, they no longer have any mobility to fly around the map harassing. While they can beat corruptors 1 on 1, corruptors cost much less, and are much easier to mass, especially since they are the precursor to the unit zergs really want, broodlords. People use carriers because they at least survive for more than 10 seconds and do meaningful damage, but you can see that with a ton of corruptors flying around, how that is not ideal either.
And by the way, fungal does do plenty of damage to toss units. You only need 4 fungals to kill a stalker. It does 40 damage over 4 seconds.
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I was thinking, what if protoss would have to build their units as normal in warpgates, and have them added to a unit pool which could then be warped in anywhere with power? ofc this is a nerf, but it could be a good step in changing warpgates. Making the tech appear later in addition to this could mean protoss warpgate units could be buffed while still giving protoss the warpgate mechanic for counterattacks and warp prism drops later in the game
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On July 30 2012 14:47 GT350 wrote:
I was thinking, what if protoss would have to build their units as normal in warpgates, and have them added to a unit pool which could then be warped in anywhere with power? ofc this is a nerf, but it could be a good step in changing warpgates. Making the tech appear later in addition to this could mean protoss warpgate units could be buffed while still giving protoss the warpgate mechanic for counterattacks and warp prism drops later in the game
That's actually a very interesting idea. You pay for the unit, wait for the build time, then warp it where you like. So basically putting gateways and warpgates together. That would appease the terrans that are upset about the instant post-battle reinforcements, and would still allow the awesome warping mechanic which leads to so many strategic plays. It would also force the protoss to decide beforehand which units to make so they have the right ones available to warp in.
Plus that would mean buffing gateway units, decreasing the reliance on early sentries for defense, since normal zealot stalker would be stronger.
I just wish you worked for Blizzard so that this might actually happen. Very nice thinking though! =)
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I am personally having a really hard time understanding blizzard's thought process behind TVP, it has to be the the most poorly designed matchup, and its quite sad.
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On July 30 2012 08:37 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 08:32 Lixo wrote:On July 30 2012 06:33 Shiori wrote:
I want to see a Zerg prove to me how the Roach is not cost-efficient against Protoss next time they say their units are weak but numerous. That's the major flaw in the design of Starcraft 2 regarding zerg for me. How are you supposed to swarm with cost effective, supply ineffective units ? That's retarded. Terran is the swarmy race of startcraft 2. It's because Zergs cried too much in Beta and got everything buffed to the point where there's nothing you can do to actually keep them from just Droning to 80 and taking 100 bases. I like to call this the Idra effect.
^^
The irony of this statement coming from a trash poster and balance discussion thread veteran...
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On July 30 2012 15:50 MilesTeg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 08:37 Shiori wrote:On July 30 2012 08:32 Lixo wrote:On July 30 2012 06:33 Shiori wrote:
I want to see a Zerg prove to me how the Roach is not cost-efficient against Protoss next time they say their units are weak but numerous. That's the major flaw in the design of Starcraft 2 regarding zerg for me. How are you supposed to swarm with cost effective, supply ineffective units ? That's retarded. Terran is the swarmy race of startcraft 2. It's because Zergs cried too much in Beta and got everything buffed to the point where there's nothing you can do to actually keep them from just Droning to 80 and taking 100 bases. I like to call this the Idra effect. ^^ The irony of this statement coming from a trash poster and balance discussion thread veteran...
Pot calling the kettle black.
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On July 30 2012 14:47 GT350 wrote:
I was thinking, what if protoss would have to build their units as normal in warpgates, and have them added to a unit pool which could then be warped in anywhere with power? ofc this is a nerf, but it could be a good step in changing warpgates. Making the tech appear later in addition to this could mean protoss warpgate units could be buffed while still giving protoss the warpgate mechanic for counterattacks and warp prism drops later in the game
Interesting idea, but it'd be a hotkey nightmare if it were controlled from your gateways. Maybe if there was a specific building for doing the warp ins, but if you could blow that up that'd be kind of an easy coup.
Maybe if the warp in selection button kept track of them instead of what it currently does: simply being a convenient way to select warp gates. If they popped into a "warp in pool" automatically and then gateways could be queued for more production it'd probably be simpler to manage. Units would be eating up supply while waiting for you to warp them in, mind you. I guess you could end up with slightly funny stuff like protoss invisibly holding onto a few rounds of production, in that case. Would that be a problem? Probably not.
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I don't get why Blizzard can't simply make units do specific things for certain races. For example, a Zerg unit would do one thing to Terran and another to Protoss and something else to Zerg.
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On July 30 2012 16:15 s1ege wrote:
I don't get why Blizzard can't simply make units do specific things for certain races. For example, a Zerg unit would do one thing to Terran and another to Protoss and something else to Zerg.
Yeah, they could sort of do this but they don't.
The Archon is the only thing that does bonus to biological, and PvT is always versus bio anyway... You can't change one without changing the other.
At the very least, there should have been some kind of Terran unit that did extra or reduced damage to biological. That could have made the game MUCH easier to balance. You'd be able to basically adjust it versus only Zealots and Zerg (and terran bio). You could tone its normal damage and bio damage up or down either way, in order to give/take edges in either TvP or TvZ.
Maybe that's why they have the Warhound missiles doing bonus to mechanical. They want an anchor to balance the game around. If we come to a point in HotS where TvP is heavily Protoss favored, but TvZ is Terran favored or equal, we'll probably see a buff to those missiles (or a nerf for the opposite scenario).
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EPT
