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Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 15

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Teiwaz
Profile Joined September 2010
Austria158 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-16 10:46:14
August 16 2011 10:45 GMT
#281
On August 16 2011 08:24 Kajarn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 08:20 Teiwaz wrote:
The biggest balance problem I have with Ghosts is that EMP (which I would call their "main spell") does not require research whereas both Storm & Neural have to be researched. It's more a little thing but would IMO would mean a huge deal.

For those of you saying that having an Observer nullifies the range advantage EMP has, have you thought about two things:
-) sight range of the Observer
-) Ravens
If the Observer is positioned over the middle of a Protoss army he wouldn't see the Ghost before he EMP's, and if you have the Observer in front of your army it will get spotted by Ravens and shot down by Vikings/Marines.


10 range EMP vs 9 Range Feedback is almost equivalent. Feedback is single target, which assures it will be cast at max range almost everytime dessired. While EMP nor Fungal can be accurately cast at max range every time, there is no click on unit to center EMP on that unit function, abuse it.


Wait, you really want to tell me that getting an AOE spell off is much harder than getting a "pick a target" spell? You serious?! Please do me a favor and play Protoss against a friend playing Terran and try picking that stupid (might be cloaked) Ghost inside an (Bio) army before he can EMP you - then we can talk again. Also, if you haven't noticed, HT's are one of the slowest units in the game.
↑ Now is the time to make use of the skills and wisdom you have acquired. ↑
Tuczniak
Profile Joined September 2010
1561 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-16 10:59:54
August 16 2011 10:46 GMT
#282
+ Show Spoiler +
On August 16 2011 18:56 Ubertron wrote:
For me a big problem is the amount of meaty units that can still dish out a LOT of damage in short periods of time, namely Marauders with Stim.

I'm linking this in with the easier mechanics of the game that VileHawk mentioned earlier as being a big part of why the game isn't balanced or at least as fun to watch or demanding as BW

In BW you can screw up a spell, or misclick something, but it doesn't cost you an entire battle, your control over longer and longer engagements is much more important.

In SC2, to me it appears that too many matchups centre around ONE ability, often a spell that if you miss it, means you lose a battle which you can't recover from.

For example as a Toss player you miss a forcefield, allowing too many bio units to get in range. Despite having an army that is equivalent in value, you get rolled, and even warping in 5 units at a time you CANNOT touch marauders with concussive shell

As a Terran, if you nail a sick EMP you destroy an entire Protoss ball with negligible losses, if you miss it, you get annhilated

I personally don't like the idea of matches hinging on casting 1 or 2 abilities correctly. I'm not talking about stupid mistakes on a players part, for example forgetting to wall-off which are clearly linked to strategic decision making.

I'm not actually a BW fanboy by any means, I played casually but at a pretty low level (I got the game when I was 10 or 11 so cut me some slack in that department ), I've actually only started watching old games now after returning to RTS gaming with SC2. I just long for long, sustained battles

This for me can only be achieved by really revamping the unit pool and taking a long, long hard look at how the mechanics of the game should be. In addition a lot of units are too damn good and become completely obligatory in matchups. Marauders need a look imo, Collosus definitely need a look at, lots of numbers of units that aren't interesting and require little micro to use.

Maybe cap control groups at 24 or something, make an exception for zergs as their army sizes tend to be a good bit bigger numerically.

Have a look at the Warpgate mechanic as well. The whole reason Protoss gateway units suck horrifically in the early game for their cost is an effort to balance the ability to warp in anywhere. Protoss are 'meant' to have the beefiest individual units, but don't

Think about increasing collision sizes or something to avoid the dreaded 'deathball syndrome'.

By actively trying to cut down on the deathball v deathball engagements deciding games, you can open up a realm of strategic possibilities where you get rewarded for thinking on your feet, outmaneuvering your opponenent etc. Here's a hypothetical example and the effects trickling down in one MU PvT (in pure theorycraft land, you can disagree ofc, I'm also not saying this is what I WANT to happen, but it's more an example of what a more heavy-handed, complete overhaul of SC2 would allow

1. Remove warpgate tech, corresponding buff to Protoss tier 1 units
2. Either limit control groups, increase unit collision values, or both to split 'deathballs' up
3. Protoss can now go toe-to-toe with Terran for longer with pure gateway mixes and tech
4. Can expand earlier, safer, more ability to pressure as well so more even early-game
5. No more collosi replace with Reaver, as units clump less now it wouldn't be ridiculous.
6. Protoss now hasn't forced vikings with Collosi, so later Stargate tech switches are potentially viable
7. Clever positioning now more important, as units clump less, storms are correlatively weaker, but as the gateway units fare better than before on their own, not a massive issue.

Thus you can, enter a game with a lot more genuine possibilities open to you. Pure gateway 3/3 with archons and a-move. A mix of units, with Reavers being ferried around in Prisms to harass and try to flank and drop scarabs. Perhaps even old-school combos like zealot/templar/carrier being seen.




TL:DR: Too many units are too effective and easy to use with little skill and the game design is a big part of that, the idea of 'balance' is NOT as simple as just going 'this unit is OP', 'this all-in is OP' etc. For the game to have more spectator appeal, to be less coinflippy, there has to be MORE options, but also more difficulty, to separate players with genuinely strong mechanics and strategy from the lesser players with memorised build-orders, good execution but not much else.
Very nice post. I think a lot of good things can be done with unit collision values. Things that make battles and game more interesting. It may be used on units that aren't imbalanced like marines (probably). Though it would change gameplay quite a bit, so it would be possible only in HotS.

+ Show Spoiler +
On August 16 2011 19:40 Aries- wrote:
My opinions on the current state of the game from a protoss perspective:

PvT: Early game is too much of a coinflip, if the terran is decent or you are unlucky with scouting you dont see anything but a marine, and then what? Is he 1rax expanding? Is he allining with marine scv? or 1-1-1?
This gives the terran an edge.

Otherwise I'd call the matchup pretty balanced, a bit skewed in the terrans favor if he goes 1-1-1 imo.

PvZ: I think zerg is a little bit overpowered right now, mostly due to the infestor and how it deals with exactly EVERYTHING in an efficent manner. Getting dropped or air harassed? Np, fungal + infested terran. Want to harass? Spit out a bunch of infested terrans och fungal a mineral line to destroy all probes. Of course, they are also insane in a straight up fight. Zerg should have some diversity to their responses to different strats, because now its just "get infestor vs everything".

Also the Morrow (ling/bling/infestor/ultra) style is pretty strong. Protoss doesnt seem to have much of a response atm.
I think exactly same thing. MUs are balanced, except those i play.

PS: Helions are probably too strong, not just ZvT but also TvP and even (or the most) in TvT. I don't say they are imbalanced and you can't win when T builds helions, but they have too big potential to deal damage for their cost. It's too big randomness in game. Are you ahead in TvT? Oh but you missed medivac with 4 helions. You are far behind now.
Sixes
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada1123 Posts
August 16 2011 10:51 GMT
#283
The hellion thing seems to be a bit of an issue in both TvZ and TvT.

I find it odd that Terran is the only army that gets a second mineral dump, especially when their basic one (the marine) is so incredibly versatile and viable at all stages of the game.

A change in hellion cost to 75/25 would work I think. Still produce 2 at a time and the like but they would delay tech a little and be a choice as opposed to free units on the way to banshee/tank etc.

Another thing which bothers me is scan radius. Terrans get scan early, it is amazing scouting mostly because it can never be denied. Reducing the radius a little (to be just a little more than the graphic) would make things like observer/creep tumor/baneling mine sniping a little more intensive and make the placement of scans for scouting and for sniping cloaked units a little more tactical.

I don't see either change breaking anything but it might reduce the insane versatility and scouting Terran enjoys just a little.

Seraphic
Profile Joined September 2010
United States3849 Posts
August 16 2011 10:55 GMT
#284
I'm actually curious on how Blizzard tackles this. Now that SC2 has some age and once again Terrans are ahead, Zergs are doing good, Toss are starting to lag behind. I doubt they want what happened with BW to happen again with Toss. I'm just wondering how they can balance it out again.

I'm Diamond/Platinum Toss player. Zerg 2nd race. I don't really think about the imba stuff that often, however I want to see Toss do well again and not win from time to time. (championship wise.)
Natus Vincere Fan | Team Secret Fan | SK Telecom T1 Fan | Lanaya the Templar Assassin <3
babybell
Profile Joined June 2011
776 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-16 10:56:20
August 16 2011 10:56 GMT
#285
[spoiler]
On August 16 2011 18:56 Ubertron wrote:
For me a big problem is the amount of meaty units that can still dish out a LOT of damage in short periods of time, namely Marauders with Stim.

I'm linking this in with the easier mechanics of the game that VileHawk mentioned earlier as being a big part of why the game isn't balanced or at least as fun to watch or demanding as BW

In BW you can screw up a spell, or misclick something, but it doesn't cost you an entire battle, your control over longer and longer engagements is much more important.

In SC2, to me it appears that too many matchups centre around ONE ability, often a spell that if you miss it, means you lose a battle which you can't recover from.

For example as a Toss player you miss a forcefield, allowing too many bio units to get in range. Despite having an army that is equivalent in value, you get rolled, and even warping in 5 units at a time you CANNOT touch marauders with concussive shell

As a Terran, if you nail a sick EMP you destroy an entire Protoss ball with negligible losses, if you miss it, you get annhilated

I personally don't like the idea of matches hinging on casting 1 or 2 abilities correctly. I'm not talking about stupid mistakes on a players part, for example forgetting to wall-off which are clearly linked to strategic decision making.

I'm not actually a BW fanboy by any means, I played casually but at a pretty low level (I got the game when I was 10 or 11 so cut me some slack in that department ), I've actually only started watching old games now after returning to RTS gaming with SC2. I just long for long, sustained battles

This for me can only be achieved by really revamping the unit pool and taking a long, long hard look at how the mechanics of the game should be. In addition a lot of units are too damn good and become completely obligatory in matchups. Marauders need a look imo, Collosus definitely need a look at, lots of numbers of units that aren't interesting and require little micro to use.

Maybe cap control groups at 24 or something, make an exception for zergs as their army sizes tend to be a good bit bigger numerically.

Have a look at the Warpgate mechanic as well. The whole reason Protoss gateway units suck horrifically in the early game for their cost is an effort to balance the ability to warp in anywhere. Protoss are 'meant' to have the beefiest individual units, but don't

Think about increasing collision sizes or something to avoid the dreaded 'deathball syndrome'.

By actively trying to cut down on the deathball v deathball engagements deciding games, you can open up a realm of strategic possibilities where you get rewarded for thinking on your feet, outmaneuvering your opponenent etc. Here's a hypothetical example and the effects trickling down in one MU PvT (in pure theorycraft land, you can disagree ofc, I'm also not saying this is what I WANT to happen, but it's more an example of what a more heavy-handed, complete overhaul of SC2 would allow

1. Remove warpgate tech, corresponding buff to Protoss tier 1 units
2. Either limit control groups, increase unit collision values, or both to split 'deathballs' up
3. Protoss can now go toe-to-toe with Terran for longer with pure gateway mixes and tech
4. Can expand earlier, safer, more ability to pressure as well so more even early-game
5. No more collosi replace with Reaver, as units clump less now it wouldn't be ridiculous.
6. Protoss now hasn't forced vikings with Collosi, so later Stargate tech switches are potentially viable
7. Clever positioning now more important, as units clump less, storms are correlatively weaker, but as the gateway units fare better than before on their own, not a massive issue.

Thus you can, enter a game with a lot more genuine possibilities open to you. Pure gateway 3/3 with archons and a-move. A mix of units, with Reavers being ferried around in Prisms to harass and try to flank and drop scarabs. Perhaps even old-school combos like zealot/templar/carrier being seen.




TL:DR: Too many units are too effective and easy to use with little skill and the game design is a big part of that, the idea of 'balance' is NOT as simple as just going 'this unit is OP', 'this all-in is OP' etc. For the game to have more spectator appeal, to be less coinflippy, there has to be MORE options, but also more difficulty, to separate players with genuinely strong mechanics and strategy from the lesser players with memorised build-orders, good execution but not much else.
Why not just play brood war?No point in turning starcraft 2 into bw with improved graphics. or do you want to switch the graphics back to what they were?
NB
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Netherlands12045 Posts
August 16 2011 10:56 GMT
#286
My personal changes for next patch:

Overall:
*Fix BL attack from high ground doesnt show vision of the unit

Zerg:
increase mana cost for infested terran by 15 (25-> 40). (reason: you know why)


Protoss:
Increase wrap prism shield by 40. (double the shield 40-> 80) (will make more interesting game play)


Terran:
Reduce Auto turret default duration by half (180s+60s -> 90s+60s) (180 aka 3 minute is just absurd)
reduce seeker missile research time by 20s (110s -> 90s) (encourage Terran to get raven more)
Im daed. Follow me @TL_NB
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25033 Posts
August 16 2011 11:03 GMT
#287
On August 16 2011 19:56 Abrafred wrote:
[spoiler]
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 18:56 Ubertron wrote:
For me a big problem is the amount of meaty units that can still dish out a LOT of damage in short periods of time, namely Marauders with Stim.

I'm linking this in with the easier mechanics of the game that VileHawk mentioned earlier as being a big part of why the game isn't balanced or at least as fun to watch or demanding as BW

In BW you can screw up a spell, or misclick something, but it doesn't cost you an entire battle, your control over longer and longer engagements is much more important.

In SC2, to me it appears that too many matchups centre around ONE ability, often a spell that if you miss it, means you lose a battle which you can't recover from.

For example as a Toss player you miss a forcefield, allowing too many bio units to get in range. Despite having an army that is equivalent in value, you get rolled, and even warping in 5 units at a time you CANNOT touch marauders with concussive shell

As a Terran, if you nail a sick EMP you destroy an entire Protoss ball with negligible losses, if you miss it, you get annhilated

I personally don't like the idea of matches hinging on casting 1 or 2 abilities correctly. I'm not talking about stupid mistakes on a players part, for example forgetting to wall-off which are clearly linked to strategic decision making.

I'm not actually a BW fanboy by any means, I played casually but at a pretty low level (I got the game when I was 10 or 11 so cut me some slack in that department ), I've actually only started watching old games now after returning to RTS gaming with SC2. I just long for long, sustained battles

This for me can only be achieved by really revamping the unit pool and taking a long, long hard look at how the mechanics of the game should be. In addition a lot of units are too damn good and become completely obligatory in matchups. Marauders need a look imo, Collosus definitely need a look at, lots of numbers of units that aren't interesting and require little micro to use.

Maybe cap control groups at 24 or something, make an exception for zergs as their army sizes tend to be a good bit bigger numerically.

Have a look at the Warpgate mechanic as well. The whole reason Protoss gateway units suck horrifically in the early game for their cost is an effort to balance the ability to warp in anywhere. Protoss are 'meant' to have the beefiest individual units, but don't

Think about increasing collision sizes or something to avoid the dreaded 'deathball syndrome'.

By actively trying to cut down on the deathball v deathball engagements deciding games, you can open up a realm of strategic possibilities where you get rewarded for thinking on your feet, outmaneuvering your opponenent etc. Here's a hypothetical example and the effects trickling down in one MU PvT (in pure theorycraft land, you can disagree ofc, I'm also not saying this is what I WANT to happen, but it's more an example of what a more heavy-handed, complete overhaul of SC2 would allow

1. Remove warpgate tech, corresponding buff to Protoss tier 1 units
2. Either limit control groups, increase unit collision values, or both to split 'deathballs' up
3. Protoss can now go toe-to-toe with Terran for longer with pure gateway mixes and tech
4. Can expand earlier, safer, more ability to pressure as well so more even early-game
5. No more collosi replace with Reaver, as units clump less now it wouldn't be ridiculous.
6. Protoss now hasn't forced vikings with Collosi, so later Stargate tech switches are potentially viable
7. Clever positioning now more important, as units clump less, storms are correlatively weaker, but as the gateway units fare better than before on their own, not a massive issue.

Thus you can, enter a game with a lot more genuine possibilities open to you. Pure gateway 3/3 with archons and a-move. A mix of units, with Reavers being ferried around in Prisms to harass and try to flank and drop scarabs. Perhaps even old-school combos like zealot/templar/carrier being seen.




TL:DR: Too many units are too effective and easy to use with little skill and the game design is a big part of that, the idea of 'balance' is NOT as simple as just going 'this unit is OP', 'this all-in is OP' etc. For the game to have more spectator appeal, to be less coinflippy, there has to be MORE options, but also more difficulty, to separate players with genuinely strong mechanics and strategy from the lesser players with memorised build-orders, good execution but not much else.
Why not just play brood war?No point in turning starcraft 2 into bw with improved graphics. or do you want to switch the graphics back to what they were?

At what point did I say that? In fact I think I used the phrase "I'm not even a BW fanboy" I wanted to maintain a positive aspect of BW, namely SUSTAINED engagements rather than 5 second battles where everything melts, and I think it would make the game easier to balance


'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
RogerChillingworth
Profile Joined March 2010
2840 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-16 11:05:59
August 16 2011 11:04 GMT
#288

I'm Diamond/Platinum Toss player. Zerg 2nd race. I don't really think about the imba stuff that often, however I want to see Toss do well again and not win from time to time. (championship wise.)


Tell your favorite protosses to play more defensive styles, and cut out a lot of the goofy stuff, and I think they'll find a lot more success!
aka wilted_kale
Nightshake
Profile Joined November 2010
France412 Posts
August 16 2011 11:05 GMT
#289
On August 16 2011 07:18 Fig wrote:

EMP = 10 range
Snipe = 10 range

Now we look at the HT
Storm = 9 range
Feedback = 9 range

This shows that if both players have the same skills, the terran player will get off an EMP before a storm can occur.



This is not true, for one reason : Feedback and Storm are cast instantly. People always look on stats, this is not bad, but to be sure i made a game on Unit Test map and sometimes, the Ghost could barely snipe one time the HT (so he didn't die from that), but most times he got feedbacked. I couldn't EMP the HT, because the Feedback was instant. But you're right in your statistics.
However i still don't know why the ghost culd snipe sometimes.

Things that i want to notice in TvP : i feel like Protoss can do so much things at the same time, like expanding, teching and getting a lot of units. For example, it's kinda hard to kill a Protoss which Nexus first, because he will quickly get some units. The thing is that the Protoss can start +1 Upgrade, and directly when he has enough to, warps units. When you're Terran, you cannot warp but just start producing. So they can do very strong and hard-to-scout pushes on two bases while you are teching and macroing.

Now, Protoss Death Ball is really strong. Early Colosses are horrible, High Templars are dangerous if they are split, Chargelots are very strong and Archons are extremely powerful (the most powerful unit in PvT i think). So when i see some pro games, or games from mine, i feel like it's impossible to destroy the Protoss. He has upgrades, can warp so fast, wouhaaa !

But sometimes, Terran just inexplicably rolls on the Protoss, like really hard. I can't understand that.

I think in overall TvP is pretty balanced, as TvZ. And ZvP, i think too, seriously. There are just different objectives in each race, and some periods where one race is strong because of a new strategy. That's why Terran are sometimes really strong, because it's a race where you can be very creative, and invent new strats.
Toplicane
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany25 Posts
August 16 2011 11:11 GMT
#290
I think it's a joke that you can't avoid any AoE cast but storm.
ReturnStroke
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States801 Posts
August 16 2011 11:20 GMT
#291
You seem really positive, hopefully it will last.
nttea
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Sweden4353 Posts
August 16 2011 11:23 GMT
#292
On August 16 2011 20:11 Toplicane wrote:
I think it's a joke that you can't avoid any AoE cast but storm.

yeah... fungal is a stupid stupid stupid ability i dont like infestors at all they feel really unzergy; i hope they change alot in the expansion... and something for hydras to be useful in zvt... speaking of zvt i feel like theres too much to defend against and no possibility to scout; meanwhile any sort of game that drags on beyond any all-in or timing push from terran usually requires them to outplay me 200x for them to win(it still happens alot :p) not an optimal way for the game to behave!
RogerChillingworth
Profile Joined March 2010
2840 Posts
August 16 2011 11:40 GMT
#293
On August 16 2011 20:23 nttea wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 20:11 Toplicane wrote:
I think it's a joke that you can't avoid any AoE cast but storm.

yeah... fungal is a stupid stupid stupid ability i dont like infestors at all they feel really unzergy; i hope they change alot in the expansion... and something for hydras to be useful in zvt... speaking of zvt i feel like theres too much to defend against and no possibility to scout; meanwhile any sort of game that drags on beyond any all-in or timing push from terran usually requires them to outplay me 200x for them to win(it still happens alot :p) not an optimal way for the game to behave!


almost all of sc2 zerg feels unzergy :'(
aka wilted_kale
AdrianHealey
Profile Joined January 2011
Belgium480 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-16 11:48:26
August 16 2011 11:47 GMT
#294
If you play Mass ling style very single game; it's not so Bad.
I love.
Serashin
Profile Joined November 2010
235 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-16 12:26:57
August 16 2011 11:53 GMT
#295
On August 16 2011 09:54 TENTHST wrote:
I literally just posted this on the Blizzard forums a minute ago:


I want to talk about StarCraft 2: Wings of Liberty. However before I do, I think it prudent to give a bit of history about my relationship with the StarCraft dynasty.

I started playing StarCraft 1 about a month after its release in 1998. I wasn't particularly attracted to it right off the bat, and, as a result, I played it casually - excited exclusively by 3v3s, 4v4s and money-maps. However the introduction of BroodWar really sparked my interest in 1v1, and I began playing seriously in early 1999 as a Random player. I used to scrim with players like box, Rekrule, ScoliosisVictem, AngryLlama, as well as play the aberrant pick-up game found in X17, motel, cake, op aafrog, etc.

I embarked upon the ladder system in the year 2000, and worked my way up and down with little long-term success. However, as the months passed, and my ladder ranking remained stagnate, I found both Terran macro and Terran micro increasingly difficult - especially using "Mech" versus Protoss - and decided I was not good enough to compete as a Random player. I soon settled on Zerg, which is the race I played until 2004-2005 when my excitement for BroodWar began to wane. The reason I bring this up is because I want to make it clear that I played all three races in a competitive 1v1 setting, and I can say objectively that Terran was, without a doubt, the most demanding, and the least forgiving. Knowing the extreme difficulty of Terran made players like Boxer or Flash seem that much more amazing, and, as a result, kept my attention on the professional BroodWar scene for years to come.


The release of StarCraft 2 was an exciting day for me. I had been waiting nearly a decade and was anxious to find out what new and amazing units the geniuses at Blizzard had invented. After the install and a few hours messing around in multiplayer, I have to admit that I was the tiniest bit disappointed that so many units were recycled from BroodWar. Granted they had somewhat different roles to fill, but the ideas were the same, and, therefore bland. I was however very happy with the macro changes; thing like the raising and lowering of Supply Depots, the warp-in mechanic, the Creep-spread mechanic, hot-keying 255 units into a single group, multiple building selection, etc. Things just seemed easier. I rationalized this conflict by saying "well, I guess this is just a refined version of BroodWar" and eventually convinced myself that I was happy with my long-awaited purchase.

I jumped face first into ladder playing as Random. Initially I found my competition very soft, and was promoted into Diamond League within a few days. While in Diamond I continued to play Random until the announcement that a new league, called Master League, would be created for the top 2% of players on each server. About three weeks before Master League was implemented, I figured it was time to pick. While I loved the macro ease of Terran (one of my biggest problems with BroodWar Terran), and the warp-mechanic of Protoss, the Baneling and Creep Tumor were what solidified my choice as Zerg. I was promoted into Master League on the first day of its creation and ended Season 1 with 3400 points, and Season 2 with 1500 points.


As of today I have over 4000 league games played - roughly 500 as Terran, 500 as Protoss and 3000 as Zerg. I have come to some conclusions in that time that I want to share. There are a lot of things in this game that just "don't feel right". Of course I could list cost versus efficacy for each unit, or limitations that certain races have that others don't, but that would take many, many pages.

One simple example of this inadequacy is the Roach. The Roach just doesn't seem to fit with the rest of the Zerg arsenal. Even the name "Roach" isn't Zerg-worthy. Zerg has all kinds of -lisks and -lings, but then there is this unit that is named after something that scuttles under the refrigerator when I flip the light switch in my kitchen. I understand Blizzard wanted Hydralisks to fill a very specific role, and as a result left Zerg with a gap in utility, but it seems like the Roach was a last-second addition that was purely for equalizing Zerg's offensive capabilities in the early-game. And because Zerg has such weak supplementary units, the Roach (just like the recently-buffed Infestor) has replaced the need for other units. It, just as the Infestor, has become a "do-all" unit, and arguably the core of a Zerg army. After all, you could technically go Roach/Infestor in every match-up and be reasonably safe against most compositions.

Another great example of this is the Colossus. This is something I like to call a "vanity" unit. That is, its role is not as important as its "coolness" effect. I imagine the Blizzard design team sitting around the brain-storming-table in 2009 thinking about a "AMFG LAZER BEAMS" unit to replace the Reaver and, thus, appeal to the new player base. So what we have now is a BroodWar Reaver that has had all of its micro-intensive requirements removed, but balanced out by a reduction in killing efficiency. A properly microed Reaver in BroodWar was a horrifying unit to fight; a properly microed Colossus in StarCraft 2 is only a mild threat, for which players usually have premade tech structures for producing counters (Terran already has a Reactor'd Starport in Terran versus Protoss, and Zerg usually has a Spire in Zerg versus Protoss, so to counter the Colossus a Terran presses "V" instead of "D", and a Zerg presses "C" instead of "T"). A Reaver in BroodWar was slow-moving, very fragile and required a constant cycling of Scarabs. It was a hard unit to control and was only really effective if the user had impeccable multi-tasking and Dropship control. But now in StarCraft 2, the Colossus is easily manageable and has reduced consequences for poor micro, meaning the difference between LiquidHuk controlling a Colossus and me controlling a Colossus is nearly indistinguishable to the viewer.


Anyone who played BroodWar for an extended period of time will confidently agree that the multi-tasking and general strategy requirements for StarCraft 2 have a much lower standard for success - that is to say, the sequel was made considerably easier and more forgiving. In StarCraft 2, when you lose a building while researching an upgrade, your money is returned; when you warp-in a Stalker too close to battle and it dies, not only are you refunded the money, but your Warp-Gate cycle is reset. Siege Tanks and Banelings have "Smart-Targeting", Marines have "Smart-Fire", and there are friendly little reminders when your M.U.L.E., larva inject or Chronoboost cycles are complete. This is a far cry from the ruthless days of BroodWar, when every action had consequence, and the more actions you could execute, the less mistakes you would make. Old-school professional players like Flash, Jaedong, Boxer, Yellow and Elky had, on top of many other skills, astounding A.P.M.; not just the spamming-control-groups-A.P.M. that everyone does, but numbers upward of 250 well into a 40-minute game. Now, in StarCraft 2, we have pro players like White Ra, Goody, Sjow and Thorzain who hover in the mid-100s, yet remain successful at the highest levels.


Why would Blizzard make their sequel easier? Why not make it as hard, if not harder to play? Are people getting stupider, or less comfortable on a keyboard? Of course not. If anything, gamers are getting smarter and more capable on a keyboard. So what gives?
There are several reasons why Blizzard would opt for a less demanding game, but the key factor is the attraction of a new customer base. One of the major reasons why competitive BroodWar didn't really flourish in the North Americas was because of the strangle-hold the Korean pro-gaming scene already had secured on the market, and, subsequently, how much of a skill-discrepancy existed.

No, this isn't a racial superiority thing, or even a cultural thing, but rather an issue of funding - that is, the rewards that a Korean professional gamer could earn versus that of a North American were far from comparable. As Dustin Browder said in his recent interview, this phenomenon can simply be explained by time spent practicing because a Korean pro-gamer could actually support himself solely on StarCraft tournament earnings, whereas a North American or European could not.


So Blizzard, in an attempt to create the next new "e-sport", designed a game where the top level was a much more practical and attainable goal. The professional gamer no longer needs to practice 12 hours a day to remain competitive, and this makes the lower tier players recognize that upward mobility is quite achievable.

The beauty of this marketing dynamic is that it also allows a much larger pool of players at the bottom to feel like they are skilled, and thus, be more inspired to continue queuing up games. Now instead of 1000-player ranking divisions, we have 100. Now instead of a traditional scholastic grading system like A, B+ or C-, we have leagues like Platinum, Bronze and Gold (where Gold league represents your standing at roughly the 50th percentile...). And this is not even to mention the biggest fluff feature of them all, the hidden M.M.R modifier; a secret ranking system designed to find suitable opponents while not damaging our fragile gaming egos.

Aspects of Battle.net 2.0 like Facebook/Twitter integration, lack of a L.A.N. system, "Real I.D." friendships and only one-account-per-game-copy are all in a consolidated effort to distinguish you as an individual, and to discourage "faceless" gaming. Furthermore, Battle.net 2.0 is chock full of easily possible achievements, a showcase for said achievements, a plethora of portraits to individualize your account, and even a non-loss record for any league lower than Master. In fact, only a few months ago Blizzard decided to lower the M.M.R threshold for promotion into Master League - no doubt to satisfy the thousands of frustrated "high Diamond players" that continuously complained on the Battle.net forums. The point of all of these features is to reinforce the idea that you are a unique and beautiful snowflake, instead of a mere number on the global ranking ladder of over a million players. StarCraft 2 has become a celebration of mediocrity, instead of a pedestal for brilliance.


I guess my major issue with StarCraft 2 is the overall ease of play combined with players not being punished for mistakes. Of course certain micro-intensive scenarios still exist, but there has been a severe simplification of both strategy and macro-management. While I think that all races got touched by the EZ-wand, I feel as if Terran got the majority of the coddling. Terran in BroodWar was unbelievably fragile, but, at the same time very strong when balanced by the user. Terran in StarCraft 2 seems very obtuse and monotonous, and has a variety of features that just should never exist in a competitive Real-Time Strategy game. No, I'm not necessarily just talking about units strengths and/or their counters, I'm talking about the forgiving nature of the race's strategy and macro. It seems to me that Blizzard intentionally made Terran more user-friendly, or, to be blunt, "noob-friendly".


But why would Blizzard make 1 race easier than the other 2? Wouldn't that affect their reputation for making such amazing Real-Time Strategy games?

Yes, of course it would. Unfortunately, that doesn't matter. Let's look at this from a business perspective (specifically Blizzard's perspective):

Blizzard knows that the BroodWar player market is already locked up. They don't need to go out of their way to appeal to the group of customers that has been anxiously awaiting the release of StarCraft 2 for nearly a decade. If you played Protoss in BroodWar, you would probably continue to play Protoss in StarCraft 2, just as if you played Zerg in BroodWar, you would probably continue to play Zerg in StarCraft 2. Blizzard's goal was to create a new pool of users by appealing to the low-work/high-reward mentality. The target market for Blizzard was the fresh generation of F.P.S. gamers; the masses of teenagers who had limited attention spans and a much higher regard for instant gratification. And because this first installment of StarCraft 2 is the Terran expansion, and Terran is the campaign race (the race that a gamer who had never once played an R.T.S. game would play), it would make perfect logical sense that Terran is the race that is the most forgiving.


In what specific ways is StarCraft 2: Wings of Liberty "Terran favored"?


- The availability of "Supply Drop": I am literally astounded that a feature like this was included in the multiplayer experience. Yea, it was cool in the campaign, along with self-healing Siege Tanks and Refineries that mine themselves, but managing food for your army is one of the most fundamental skill-sets in any competitive strategy game. This is clearly a band-aid feature; one designed purely to keep an inferior player on equal footing with his opponent. In all objectivity, I cannot possibly think of any reasonable justification for the existence of "Supply Drop" other than for retroactively helping a player catch up in macro if he/she has failed to produce food properly.


- The existence of "Smart-Fire" and "Smart-Targeting": While I have given these two features similar names, I can assure you that they are quite different. I will start with "smart-targeting". As you may or may not know, units in this game are given a hidden "targeting priority", so that the A.I. may selectively fire on units that have been ranked as a bigger threat. The most perverse example of this is the Siege Tank, which will target an Infestor or High Templar over a Roach or Stalker, even if there are 90 Roaches and only 1 Infestor in its range. Confused? After its initial volley on the forward units, the Siege Tank will fire on the unit that has been given the highest targeting priority. This means that if a player runs a ball of Zealots and a few High Templar into a Terran stronghold, the Terran player is not forced to manually target the High Templar before they Storm his marines, because the Siege Tanks will automatically target the High Templars for him. Combined with a bonus damage to Armored units, and subsequent splash, it makes the Siege Tank a highly cost-effective unit that requires no micro management other than siege placement. This feature also exists in Banelings, which, when move-commanded, will not detonate on a non-light unit unless told to do so. Additionally, "Smart-Fire" is another feature intended to remove micro-oriented tasks from the user. I am sure most of you have heard about it, but in case you haven't, here it is: Any unit that does not have a visible projectile animation when firing (read: Marines, Siege Tanks, Thor's ground attack and Immortals), will never fire 1 extra, unnecessary shot to kill an enemy unit. That means that when left alone, these units (coincidentally 75% of which are Terran units) will never over-kill, therefore maximizing the amount of damage they can deal in the shortest time possible.


- The existence of "Auto-Repair": Another noob-friendly mechanic that has no place in a competitive Real-Time Strategy game. I don't remember a lot of BroodWar Terran players complaining that it was too hard to right-click on a unit you want to have repaired. However in StarCraft 2, a Terran player can send his army of Thors or Battlecruisers into an engagement with a flock of S.C.V.s not only tagged to the units, but also set to auto-repair, and be free to continue macro-related tasks at his base. This also goes hand-in-hand with Terran being "cheese-proof", as so many have said, because 1 or 2 Marines combined with self-healing S.C.V.s can hold off every kind of early aggression. Additionally, this is an issue when harassing a Terran wall. In BroodWar, when you told your S.C.V.s to repair a structure under attack, and that structure was healed to its maximum health, the S.C.V. would cease repairing unless re-issued the command. In StarCraft 2, the Terran player can leave a group of S.C.V.s idle at his wall set to auto-repair, and literally forget about it for the rest of the game.


- Most Terran units have similar, or the same, move-speeds: Yea, of course there are the Hellions or Reapers with Nitro-pack that are quite fast, but those are harassing units, and supposed to be fast. And yea, of course, there are Battlecruisers and Thors which move at 1.88 (the same as High Templar), or Siege Tanks that don't move at all when sieged, but those are specialty units, and never made en masse. What I'm referring to is the basic army composition units; units that the Terran player is going to make most often in various match-ups, but specifically the composition used against Protoss. Since all of Terran's units are ranged, there is never an issue of one unit not being within attacking range of a target. What this facilitates is the ability for the user to use 1 control group for his entire army, because the units will stay relatively close when given a single move command. Here is a list of Terran units and their respective move-speeds:

1) Marine - 2.25
2) Marauder - 2.25
3) Unsieged Siege Tank - 2.25
4) Medivac - 2.5
5) Ghost - 2.25
6) Raven - 2.25
7) Thor - 1.88
8) Viking in air - 2.75
9) Banshee - 2.75

Notice how most of the core units have move speeds between 2.25 and 2.75? This means the Terran player can have a 1 army hot-key of Marines/Marauders/Medivacs/Ghosts/Tanks/Viking (a typical composition when playing versus Protoss), and tab through categories, without ever having to worry about a single unit type reaching the battle before the rest of the group.

Now let's take a look at the core units for a basic Protoss and Zerg army:

1) Zealot with Charge- 2.75
2) Stalker - 2.95
3) Sentry - 2.25
4) High Templar - 1.88
5) Colossus - 2.25
6) Immortal - 2.25
7) Dark Templar - 2.81
8) Phoenix - 4.25
9) Void Ray - 2.25

Notice a much greater variation when compared to Terran? The core units have a much wider range of speeds. If a Protoss player has a unit composition of Zealot/Stalker/Sentry/Immortal, he has to carefully manipulate his various units so that the Immortals are not stuck dancing around behind the Stalkers, or the melee-attack Zealots are in the front tanking damage as they are intended to do, or the Sentrys are in range of casting Force Fields during an engagement.

This is an even bigger issue with Zerg, because most of Zerg's core units are either melee units or have poor range, and need to appropriate positioning to maximize efficacy. The following move-speeds are all off-Creep:

1) Speedling - 2.95
2) Baneling without speed - 2.5
3) Roach with speed - 3.0
4) Infestor - 2.25
5) Mutalisk - 3.75
6) Hydralisk - 2.25
7) Ultralisk - 2.95
8) Broodlord - 1.41

Zerg seems to have the greatest variation in unit speed of all of the races. I agree that this is most certainly an advantage in the sense that a lot of Zerg's units are very fast, but it is also a disadvantage in the sense that a Zerg player is required to have multiple control-groups for a standard army. So while the difference in the unit move-speeds of the three races are not drastic, having a generalized 2.25 move-speed for Terran reduces the need for good positioning and micro-management, while Protoss or Zerg are required to micro to make sure that all of their units are being used efficiently.


- The idea of salvageable Bunkers: Again, another issue on which there has been great debate since the release of this game a year ago. In fact, there was so much raucous on the forums and in the professional scene about free Bunkers that Blizzard took a step toward acknowledging that there shouldn't be anything in StarCraft 2 that is no-risk/high-reward. I understand that the idea of static defense differs with Terran, when compared to the other two races, because it requires offensive units to be effective, but that doesn't change the fundamental idea in R.T.S. games that you should be punished for bad decisions. I guess I should be happy that at least Terran loses at least a tiny bit of resources for a bunker now, but still 25 minerals is far from game-changing. Once again, I don't remember Terran players in BroodWar complaining about Bunkers costing 100 minerals.


- The low-gas/high-mineral costs of Terran: I think we can all agree that Vespene Gas is a far more coveted and valuable resource than Minerals. On most maps there is a ~2.5 : 1 ratio of minerals-to-gas available to be mined. This is not including the rate at which you can mine, because that would clutter this post up with non-essential math. The issue here is that gas is more valuable and, overall, Terran has considerably lower gas-costs than Protoss or Zerg. Now this is not necessarily the case in Terran versus Terran, but it is clearly the case in Terran versus either Protoss or Zerg. Often times I see, in both my games in mid-Master League as well as higher-level games, a Terran in the late game with a surplus of gas and a paucity of minerals. Conversely, I rarely see a Protoss or Zerg player in the late game with an abundance of gas. I think this is because the Terran army is so "mineral efficient", while the Protoss and Zerg army is so "mineral inefficient".
The standard army composition for Terran versus Protoss is heavy Marine (0 gas), Marauder (25 gas), Medivac (100 gas), Ghost (100 gas) and Viking (75 gas). That is, a Terran player is massing these units that cost very little gas, and therefore can be massed more quickly. Now the Protoss player is massing the following units versus Terran in a standard army: Zealot (0 gas), Stalker (50 gas), Sentry (100 gas), Immortal (100 gas), Colossus (200 gas), or Templar tech, which is even more gas-intensive when combined with the Gateway units. As you can see, the Protoss army requires much more gas to be on equal-footing with his Terran opponent.
Additionally, the standard army composition for Terran versus Zerg is heavy Marine (0 gas), Medivac (100 gas), Siege Tank (125 gas), while Zerg needs several Banelings (25 gas a piece and are disposable) to counter the Marines, and Mutalisks (100 gas) en masse to counter the Siege Tanks. I will not even mention the Hellion since the issue of it only costing minerals has been all over the Blizzard forums since its abusive potential was illustrated at MLG Anaheim a few weeks ago.


- The past, and current, 1v1 ladder map-pool: It is quite obvious that the majority of the 1v1 ladder map-pool has been in Terrans favor (at least when fighting Zerg), since the release of this game. We started with maps like Kulas Ravine, Steppes of War and Delta Quadrant, only to be introduced to Backwater Gulch, Slag Pits, Antiga Shipyard and Searing Crater. And those are just the blatantly Terran-favored maps; we still have several other maps with favorable chokes for a Marine/Siege Tank composition (Typhon Peaks and Abyssal Caverns), as well as others with a plethora of rocks and close spawns a mere 15 seconds from each other. Sure, Zerg has been given a few Zerg-favored maps (Tal'darim Altar and Metalopolis), but with only 3 vetos allowed, Zerg is pigeonholed into playing on maps with no reaction time, and limited areas in which to engage. Even with tournament maps such as Crevasse and Terminus RE, which have been engineered to be more-favorable to Zerg than Blizzard's ladder pool, Terran has been dominating Zerg since the inception of competitive StarCraft 2 tournaments in August of 2010. The link to the winrates can be found here: http://i.imgur.com/uaVuw.png. Last month was the first time in the past year that Zerg came even close to Terran in terms of win rates, but it now appears to be sliding back to its default position of Terran dominance.


- Terran's "generalized" strategy and macro: I think one of the most problematic issues with Terran is it's "do-all" units actually really are "do-all". Because the units are all ranged, and most have anti-air capabilities, you could not scout, blindly make a combination of a few units, and be not only safe from every opening but be cost effective in the engagement. Or, as MarineKingPrime showed us all for 6 months, a Terran player could literally mass Marines in every match-up and still have a viable army well into the mid-game. The only time a mass-Marine build is threatened is when there are several Protoss tier 3 units, or Infestors, in play. For some reason, the counter to mass Marines is always a combination of very gas-heavy units. On top of this blind-building of units, Terran actually has the most luxurious macro because it is the only race that can queue units in all of its production facilities. This allows Terran to spend the most time looking at the field of the three races, and the least amount of time bouncing around their base on macro-related tasks. Aside from planting Supply Depots and dropping M.U.L.E.s, there is literally no reason a Terran should ever need to look away from a battle.


- The lack of a cool-down period on M.U.L.E.s: Players have been complaining about this for a year now. And this is another band-aid feature similar to "Supply Drop" designed purely to allow a player to catch-up if he has fallen behind on macro. While the Terran economy is based around the M.U.L.E to be comparable to their Zerg and Protoss counterparts, it is not a necessity. So while the Protoss player has to remain vigilant with their Chronoboosting in order to minimize a unit's production or upgrade timing, and the Zerg player has to remain cognizant of their larva injects so as to maximize the amount of units they can produce from each Hatchery, a Terran player can forget about "Muling" for several minutes, but then catch-up by dropping 5 or 6 on a freshly secured base.


The following is an interview with StarCraft 2's lead balance designer, Dustin Browder. The link can be found here: http://www.gamespot.com/news/6325853/starcraft-ii-heart-of-the-swarm-qanda-with-dustin-browder

"There's currently a concern with the Zerg Infestor's power fungal growth. I still hear a lot of complaints about the Zerg still not being strong enough, as well as Terrans still being too flexible. The latter's the most persistent one for the longest time. That's almost a design flaw not a balance flaw. We just have too many good units in that race. It's hard to cut units in that race and say, 'I know you have a lot of good units, but we're killing two because [your race] is too good.' (laughs) That's not going to work. And it's not fun to go, 'Hey, you know that unit that was fun and useful? Well, we ruined it, so now your race is balanced.' That feels terrible too. Those are some of the hot areas I've heard.

It's a lengthy process from deciding which balances we want to do to the point where it got live in the community. We've done nerfs to the bunkers and the rushes are no longer in the game by the time the patch goes live. We're like, 'Do we need this? Eh…alright, let's just put in what we thought was good at the time and just go with it.' The dynamics change so quickly that sometimes it's hard for us to keep up. The fans are still learning so much from the game and figuring out what works. I don't know how much balanced the game is six months from now to a year, but our internal members that checked the win/loss percentage in all regions are very positive except for Grandmaster Korea, which shows an advantage to Terran.

However, we've heard from Korean pro gamers and casual players that this is more of a cultural issue than anything else. Part of the factor is that Terrans do the easiest early-game rushes and they're the most defendable against them too; Koreans do the most rushing when compared to the rest of the world. But I don't know; it could all be lies. It could be, 'Oh, it's broken, but [the dev team] did not know that yet.' The Europeans, the Americans, and the Chinese haven't figured it out yet."


In the end, and aside from my complaints, I think Blizzard did what they set out to do: create a game that appeals to the regular gamer, and allows for a lot more flexibility in gameplay. And after reading Dustin Browder's most recent interview, I am honestly filled with confidence that the Blizzard development team has a good idea about what is wrong, and also how to fix the glaring issues. Unfortunately, I fear that we may have to wait for Heart of the Swarm for any significant change.


Thank you for reading this essay.


I have to say your missing the most essential thing Terran has as adventage over the other races early on .

1. The pokerface you create with 2 depots and 1 Bunker keeps the other races long in the dark while being forced to respond to everything nearly perfectly.

2. as newly emerged in higher level Terran play that they simply dont need a single bunker early on vs Protoss because it just poses no danger after the initial SCV scout wich zones it already out in most cases..

3. Terran is the only race wich can extremly effitient use their workers defensive aswell as offensive no other race can do that because 1. the HP difference , 2. the repair , 3. the mule economy, 4. the supporting remaining units DPS output aswell as Terran not having melee units means... vs Zergling or Zealot you simply put a huge amount of SCV in front of ur high dps stuff and the melee doesnt pose danger , even if you focus fire or hold position etc it is impossible to respond to this hold position thing.

4. Terran is the only race that can exapnd in their own base while having already large noticeable benefits from it without being in danger.
Aswell as Terran being the only race wich can safe such a very important mainbuilding pretty easy lift is very gamebreaking for a gamebulding i have tons of situations where i lose the game when i can deny a exansion for some time but he still gets mule eco and has higher tech and terrans dont need to play " safe" meaning im just able to break this exansion if they dont throw up bunkers and tech in addition. If you try then to run up a ramp with ur gateway that wont work all maths are against you.

5. this only for 1 race avaible tool also makes hidden mining extremly easy just a few clicks and u gain additional adventage from it , that is already useable in early game for example... if you want to open safe with 3 gate expo vs Pokerfaceterran on any position you mostly cant afford to check all bases the cover all what is needed and still be safe and denying all kinds of mining time .

I dont think removing this lift supports the game , however i feel like whenever a Zergs expansion or a Protoss expansion is under attack ur workers cant help like Terran workers can aswell as you can just say " Hey i burrow my Hatchery " or " Hey i let 4 overlords carry my Hatchery" . OR for a Protoss " Hey i cant just make this Nexus in Phase Mode ( check out phase cannon sc2 alpha then u get what i mean not meaning the need of being in pylon radius but meaning the effect of floating like a CC ) " .

6. Terran is the only race wich can micro their units that effitient that it doesnt matter if your mining is disrupted for some time , if a protoss is forced to stop mine for some time vs banshee drop , helion etc u dont have enough avaible units to defend a push because of the pokerface scenario and you can just go every game robo because u die to bio + scv etc.
A protoss needs aboslutely to mine constant with nearly no losses to be on paar.

7. What makes Protoss weaker in combat situations in comparision to other races is , in much situations a smart player can force fights near ur base meaning if there happens a FF split to prevent you from getting rolled over you simply trade as the other race with the caged units and focus fire with the other stuff Vital stuff of the Protoss wich loses arent affordable.

8. This whole lift for every building thing makes a Terran immune to basetrades being immune to basetrades means in allot of ways disadventages with the current unit pool and their speed.

9. Unless your not sure what the Terrans plans are from start of Zerg and Protoss cant make any use of their tech tree and even if you play in the "safe metagame area" u cant make use of allot stuff of your techtree , Terran is the only race wich can use pretty much everything without being in the danger of dying.

E: oh i just read that whole thing, well u covered some stuff but you didnt try to find solutions or stuff like that the problem is if you make such a huge ammount of post with allot of flaws is that you just say them what they might already after watching or testing knew somewhat problems are ever finding solutions.

And the worst of all solutions is to remove race versatilness as some month ago the simple remove of Flux Vanes ( Voidray speed upgrade).
There are to many targets , and i smile everytime they try to defend and thinking they are smart.
Nothingtosay
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States875 Posts
August 16 2011 12:15 GMT
#296
Do you guys feel that infestors are too good versus protoss? I've been saying this for awhile and now we have whitera saying the same.


It just seems like they are too versatile and fungal growth is is so amazing with how it prevents the constant micro that protoss needs to perform in battles. I'm happy that the root time was reduced from 8 to 4 seconds before zerg started realizing how good it is. I think being rooted for 4 more seconds is way worse than the dps increase. Obviously I know that feedback is really good but you can't reliably feedback every infestor.
[QUOTE][B]On October 16 2011 13:00 Anihc wrote:[/B] No, you're the one who's wrong. Nothingtosay got it right.[/QUOTE]:3
vullem
Profile Joined September 2010
Bulgaria16 Posts
August 16 2011 12:17 GMT
#297
I want to ask just one question: When was the last time non korean terran won a tournament ?
Dark side of the force is a pathway to many abilities some considered to be unnatural.
Nothingtosay
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States875 Posts
August 16 2011 12:18 GMT
#298
On August 16 2011 21:17 vullem wrote:
I want to ask just one question: When was the last time non korean terran won a tournament ?

This isn't game balance.
[QUOTE][B]On October 16 2011 13:00 Anihc wrote:[/B] No, you're the one who's wrong. Nothingtosay got it right.[/QUOTE]:3
Yaotzin
Profile Joined August 2010
South Africa4280 Posts
August 16 2011 12:26 GMT
#299
On August 16 2011 21:15 Nothingtosay wrote:
Do you guys feel that infestors are too good versus protoss? I've been saying this for awhile and now we have whitera saying the same. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uw3o0EY58wU&feature=player_detailpage#t=3913s

It just seems like they are too versatile and fungal growth is is so amazing with how it prevents the constant micro that protoss needs to perform in battles. I'm happy that the root time was reduced from 8 to 4 seconds before zerg started realizing how good it is. I think being rooted for 4 more seconds is way worse than the dps increase. Obviously I know that feedback is really good but you can't reliably feedback every infestor.

PvZ is far too much in flux to be making any certain balance statements about it. Infestors are good, but no one is dominating with them so there's no reason to be concerned yet. No style is at all dominant in the MU these days, all changing a lot.
Belha
Profile Joined December 2010
Italy2850 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-16 12:37:19
August 16 2011 12:32 GMT
#300
Many people are fking up the thread talking about their crappy league experiences (so much first-person sentences). Please, lets debate about what we consistently see in pro games.
Chicken gank op
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