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The only thing that I find to be off-balance is the warp gate mechanic.
It makes SC2 PvP the ugly brother of BW ZvZ, lots of tiny timings to hone in on, looks like the same 4 gate vs 4 gate in untrained eyes ( aka 99% of the people looking at the match ).
On top of that, it has no dynamic choice, you just get warpgates and poof, your gateways are 100% better. Faster unit building, instantly warped on the battlefield compared to slower units and units having to walk to the battle.
But the biggest issue I have with warpgates is the ability to save up buildtime when you're supply blocked/maxed.
In the case of a max food army for terran, if your units die, you have to start your barracks' up again and wait for the units to build before they can be deployed.
In the case of zerg, you can save up production in the form of larvae, but you still have to wait 70 seconds before those 6 ultralisks hatch.
In the case of protoss, the warpgates don't have a cooldown when you're maxed. When a unit dies and you have supply ready to build it, you can have a gateway unit ON the battlefield in 5 seconds. If you have 20 warpgates and you just sit on a 200/200 army until you are attacked, you can lose 40 food of army and still replendish it almost instantly. Effectively giving protoss a better 300 food push than zerg.
Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with protoss beating me in the lategame. Archons, storms, collosi, they all need to be powerful and if they roll over me thats all right for me. But it really saddens me that in the lategame, protoss production is in every way better than zergs or terran's, down to the no-walk distance and the almost no-build time. If you are maxed food as terran, you better make something happen. If you are maxed food as zerg, you need to throw units away to get some more supply for even more units. If you are maxed as protoss, hurray! Stay maxed until the enemy attacks where you will just STOMP all over your opponents push with your superior lategame production capabilities.
That's the only thing that I deem neccesairy to be altered. The game otherwise is fine, just give a maxed food protoss some penalty like terran and zerg have.
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On August 16 2011 22:37 RogerChillingworth wrote:
You should really *spoiler* posts of this size ^^ (at person who replied to it but didn't spoiler)
I specifically chose to not spoiler-bracket it because I want people to read it. If that is a problem I will edit it.
[edit]
I semi-spoiler-bracketed it.
[/edit]
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Wow I expected this thread to turn into an instant QQ balance flamefest. But I am impressed by the level of manner here. TLers maturing at last?
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im atm having a hard time understanding the zerg, i have to keep em busy just to make em not be maxed in 14 minutes while im still at 130 supply then, and i dont always wna keep em busy, since when im FFE'ing theres not a time that i have any chance doing any dmg with a straight up macro play. but i don't rly believe in imbalance, but just that the looser is doing smth wrong, and i dont know what im doing wrong --_--
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On August 16 2011 23:12 shockaslim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 21:43 Huntz wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 16 2011 19:34 RogerChillingworth wrote:
ZvP
I feel like Protoss can play defensively versus zerg and get up to 3-4 bases (depending on the map) without attacking if they so please, with basic sharking around to force units while they establish a really good economy. It isn't too difficult to deny drops and nydus worms, and warp-in + cannons + templar, along with colossus' cliff-walking for route-cutting, make it extremely difficult to apply pressure to a competent protoss bent on staying defensive and getting an optimal unit composition with a ton of infrastructure.
Well to be blunt, you're feeling it wrong. Have you seen Naniwa vs. Ret? Naniwa goes for a +2 blink stalker attack around 9-10 minutes, at which point ret already has 60+ drones on 3 bases and 30+ roaches with more on the way. If Naniwa tried to take a fast third ret would just kill him. Heck, ret just killed him by spamming roaches into his natural. It wasn't even close. ZvP I feel like the deathball just isn't strong enough vs. infestor broodlord to merit the horrible harassment options in the early/mid game. SG and DT have already been figured out and the answer to any gateway push is essentially roaches. In fact the whole turtle to deathball play of protoss is very 1 dimensional and shouldn't exist IMO. They need a stronger early/mid game and a weaker late game. Actually, you aren't even talking about the same type of strat that Roger was talking about. He is talking about that incredibly boring Cruncher style where you sit between 3 bases while building up the deathball and then attacking when you are maxed.
That really doesn't work anymore. When Zerg spreads the Protoss ball up with drops and then techs to mass Broodlords/Infestors while mass expanding, that passive style gets really exploited. That's why you see Protoss' in Korea go for that 7gate blink allin. You have to put pressure on the Zerg.
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People who have problem with Zerg economy control problem from start of game should look into this.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=254510
I feel Terran and bringing other races on paar was a problem wich i felt will result in high winratio already months ago , gave my reply to this already in this thread , so im just helping to rip protosses of the not controlable game illusion vs Zerg because with my experience i can say u can control somewhat a game vs Zerg, vs Terran u cannot.
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I think Zerg should be buffed a little bit in their defensive abilities early game, but their marco mechanic reduced quite a bit, so they are not overpowering late game with their massive production.
I feel like having 28+ production when in 4 bases is really crazy and should be reduced.
I also don't like the panelings since they deal damage instantly, i feel like SC2 shouldn't have these kind of units at least not be so prominent.
But I hope to see the lurker replace the baneling in HOTS.
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On August 16 2011 07:03 chaopow wrote:
I think Protoss may be a little for favored in the TvP matchup if it is played standard....
really ?
i see 0 protoss code A anymore ro16/8 ? and 2 protoss code s top16 ? its so frustrating to see no protoss can do well and even hyped protoss gamers like MC and ALICIA have to go to the up and downs  i think i know you all will hate me but if protoss not get buffed or other two get nerfed in 1-2 seasons we have only huk left in GSL 
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As a zerg player I find it very hard to hold a position or an advantage point. A zerg player should engange in open areas and not in chokepoints, but if I look away for about ten seconds the terran or protoss army have wanderer to a point that is advantagous for them, and that makes the army so more difficult to engange.
I am not saying that it is impossible, but it's really hard. Sure a pro can do it, but they too also lose to good positioning.
Terrans got siege tanks, and protoss got colossi (and defensive storms) to get into or to take advantage of the terrain, but Zergs got none.
Any suggestions how Zerg deal with this?
(As a sidenote, I really hope they reintroduce the lurker in HOTS, or something like it.)
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On August 17 2011 00:24 BleaK_ wrote:
Any suggestions how Zerg deal with this?
Just better map control/awareness. Creep, ovies, mutas, lings... Its the obvious answer, but its also very true. As a zerg you never want to be caught by an army you didn't see coming.
Zerg is all about getting the perfect engagement, you just gotta work on that I guess.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On August 17 2011 00:17 CoR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 07:03 chaopow wrote:
I think Protoss may be a little for favored in the TvP matchup if it is played standard.... really ? i see 0 protoss code A anymore ro16/8 ? and 2 protoss code s top16 ? its so frustrating to see no protoss can do well and even hyped protoss gamers like MC and ALICIA have to go to the up and downs i think i know you all will hate me but if protoss not get buffed or other two get nerfed in 1-2 seasons we have only huk left in GSL
You know why it is? I think it's because where you have SlayerS and other top Terrans really innovating and trying new stuff, Protoss players are doing the same stuff they've been doing since the beta (few things have changed, but not much).
There's not enough experimental protosses out there right now so the top terrans/zergs have found them predictable to beat. MC has turned into this ultra greedy player and gets punished for it every time.
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On August 17 2011 00:24 BleaK_ wrote:
As a zerg player I find it very hard to hold a position or an advantage point. A zerg player should engange in open areas and not in chokepoints, but if I look away for about ten seconds the terran or protoss army have wanderer to a point that is advantagous for them, and that makes the army so more difficult to engange.
I am not saying that it is impossible, but it's really hard. Sure a pro can do it, but they too also lose to good positioning.
Terrans got siege tanks, and protoss got colossi (and defensive storms) to get into or to take advantage of the terrain, but Zergs got none.
Any suggestions how Zerg deal with this?
(As a sidenote, I really hope they reintroduce the lurker in HOTS, or something like it.)
I agree Zerg needs a territory-controlling unit.
I DONT think the lurker is what is needed though, just a unit that can defend a large area before broodlords.
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Yeah that 1-1-1 allin is so innovative. Or the bioball. I guess they did start building ghosts, that was super innovative.
Protoss play a completely different style to beta days, Terran play identically. But Terran is the innovator. Righto.
I agree Zerg needs a territory-controlling unit.
I DONT think the lurker is what is needed though, just a unit that can defend a large area before broodlords.
If you give Zerg a territory control unit you have to nerf their macro, or they can just hide behind said unit and make 100 drones.
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In the case of zerg, you can save up production in the form of larvae, but you still have to wait 70 seconds before those 6 ultralisks hatch.
Take 20 drones, build spines, build zerglings, cancel spines. 220/200.
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On August 16 2011 22:43 CrY. wrote:I don't know why protoss complain about anything, they have it so good
Um. 1/1/1.
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Aaah this is going downhill.
Terran: Your builds are very unique/varied and new ones continue to pop up. But look at it; Terran is using units they haven't used-- tanks/banshee for the 1-1-1, hellions for the SlayerS style, more ghosts in TvP. Terran also has a tech tree that is more easily accessible, the Protoss trees are longer and more rigid; aka robo tech doesn't open up templar tech or something like factory -> starport. This allows terran extreme versatility in their opening builds that zerg and protoss just don't have. Protoss already use collosus/DT/HT and the rest of the gateway units in standard play. To fight the 1-1-1 many protoss have experimented with stargate for early phoenix, but without much success (Puzzle got like 3 free banshee kills and still barely held, losing tons of probes). What do you suggest we use? Carriers are obviously out of the question, and besides an equally cheesy all-in, void rays don't have much place in PvT. A warp prism in their production/reinforcement line when the move out might be helpful, but we REALLY need EVERY unit we can get, I'm not sure splitting our army is the right idea. Plus with the scariest push moving out/starting seige tech at 8 minutes, I'm not sure you'd get a warp prism in time unless you robo before expo. Keep in mind the obs must reach their base to confirm a 1-1-1 and queue the warp prism.
@Protoss/people defending them; please be more logical/less derogatory-- if we want to keep this thread alive we have to keep it civil and not sink to their level (by this I mean the level of:
On August 16 2011 22:43 CrY. wrote: I don't know why protoss complain about anything, they have it so good
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terran 1 base play is really strong, too strong (at least really strong which white-ra has acknowledged) and zerg lacks a cliff walking unit. Zerg lacks mirco heavy unit that without micro get get 2 kills but with mirco can get 20 kills.Those are my 2 cents.
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On August 17 2011 00:47 Toplicane wrote:Show nested quote +In the case of zerg, you can save up production in the form of larvae, but you still have to wait 70 seconds before those 6 ultralisks hatch. Take 20 drones, build spines, build zerglings, cancel spines. 220/200.
This doesn't matter as much as you may think, yes, thats 10 more roaches versus a deathball, I'll give you that. But those 10 roaches will evaporate rightfully to a 200/200 protoss army.
But because of the saving up buildtime with warpgates, its harder to chip away at the protoss army. Right now if you have chipped away at them in the midgame, you have to keep on attacking the army to capitalise on your advantage. Versus a terran or a zerg, you can sit back and macro up and capitalize on your advantage that way. Against a protoss this just doesn't work as well because of their superior reinforcing.
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Starport play completely negates 1-1-1 play.
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Can someone please explain to me what has changed since release that NOW makes 1/1/1 OP?
It's been a standard terran build since beta.
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EPT
