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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On August 17 2011 01:39 JustTray wrote: Starport play completely negates 1-1-1 play. Kindly pass on this wisdom to professional Protoss players in GSL who lose out on thousands of dollars by not doing it. Thank you. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On August 17 2011 01:39 JustTray wrote: Starport play completely negates 1-1-1 play. Thorzain vs oGs.MC - MLG Colombus - 1-1-1 vs Stargate MC opens Stargate against Thorzain and gets utterly raped by his 1-1-1 all-in. The battle wasn't even close | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On August 17 2011 00:34 Qikz wrote: You know why it is? I think it's because where you have SlayerS and other top Terrans really innovating and trying new stuff, Protoss players are doing the same stuff they've been doing since the beta (few things have changed, but not much). There's not enough experimental protosses out there right now so the top terrans/zergs have found them predictable to beat. MC has turned into this ultra greedy player and gets punished for it every time. The thing is though, toss is pretty predictable and relatively easily scoutable(well more like to draw conclusions from the things you scout or don't scout). While Korea mass produces insane terrans, I still feel you can't really lump it all down to t/z being just more creative, better or more innovating. I don't know, personally I feel the whole race is just very badly designed which all comes down to the huge importance of sentries(ff and to a lot lesser degree GS), which kill mobility and make the toss units so much better in one big ball, rather than a few smaller balls. Both terran and zerg have been getting better over time abusing this(well zerg lately, terran has been all about drops for so long). Ontop of that, you have 3 tech trees, with one pretty much a must in both PvZ and PvT. I don't really see any easy fix to toss, I feel it just needs a very big change to the whole dynamic of the toss race. PS. I'm terran | ||
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BUfels
Ireland26 Posts
I don't see anything wrong with spawning sentries with more energy but increasing the energy cost of forcefields. Nerf infestors, buff hydras and ultras. Basically, Imo, the majority of "imbalanced" things in the game are just bad game mechanics. MULES makes 1 base terran too strong in relativity to other races and makes their all-ins never really all-in, the warp-in mechanic makes ling counters too weak with warp-in zealots, and things like fungal growth and force field actually prevent micro and are quite overpowered, but are necessary because both races are balanced around them. | ||
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red4ce
United States7313 Posts
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Truedot
444 Posts
On August 16 2011 07:00 Condor Hero wrote: I feel that this thread will have tons of balance whine despite what you say. The game should be balanced around the absolute HIGHEST level of play. That's GM Korea because everyone should aspire to be the best therefore it should be balance around that. As for EU/NA people having problems, that's just a skill thing. Nobody would ask for a platinum player's opinions on balance right? I will disagree with you on this. You dont make the roof of a house and try to build under it. The game should be balanced at the lowest levels of play so that there is a clear baseline capability to defend or attack againt standard masses like mass VR and other silly nonsense. it takes a LOT more skill to defend against 1 mass unit like mass marines at 8 minutes or mass VRs than it takes to fight a well comp'd unit with your well comp'd unit. You numbers of unit comp and units themselves have to be very precise, not to mention micro control. its alot easier to be a micro aggressor with a Mass X unit thats been proven time and again to be extremely powerful versus sub-optimal unit comps.The level of knowledge and skill required to do :Mass X", therefore, is nothing compared to the level of knowledge and skill required to counter "Mass X". hence why so many people can faceroll into plat or diamond easily by finding a BO for one of these unit types and win 2/3 of their games before someone who can deal with the build from actual game knowledge comes along and keeps them from getting higher in leagues, because they actually don't know or understand the game, and simply picked a BO that has been proven to have a high winning rate vs average players, such as 7RR, 2 rax all in, mass VR, banshee mass vs zerg, etc. My point is that the game, if it were to be truly balanced, would be balanced at the lowest levels of play, so that countering people is a decision of making the proper units, and the proper units are about 20% harder to make and use vs the Mass X function, since winning vs it thereby causes you to gain a lead, so it should rightfully be difficult in some aspect. With this in mind, then you would see at the highest levels of play, timing becomes a more critical factor (not that it isnt already), good unit comps are much more valuable, and real skills like micro and strategic and tactical setups and decisions, all start making a bigger impact than "Mass X because this will insta-win since they cant deal with it". In short, balanced at the lowest levels of play would translate into more tactical play in higher levels and make the game much more exciting and interesting. You don't see chess balanced around highest levels of play. there's a baseline balance, via mirror pieces 1 hit kills, that prevents chess "cheese". All truly compettive non-computer games take this into account. There's either a limited number of pieces, a limited number of powerful pieces, and/or everyone gets the same powers/units. SC2 is in complete opposition to that, and I'm surprised its as balanced as it is, yet from the fact that infestor is the only clear counter to mass VR, which in itself has been whined to death as being OP, and that someone was able to micro stimmed mass marines as their only unit and beat all the supposed protoss counter units and win the game, I think that it would be much more useful to balance it from the bottom up. Starcraft 1 felt like this. of course if they did this, casuals wouldnt faceroll so well anymore and they'd lose revenue from people saying SC2 is a tough game and not for "casuals". | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
In TvP lategame (mid master toss here), if you want to beat a mass gateway protoss, you HAVE to destroy his economy. Be super aggerssive and use high ground constantly (like typhon peaks 3rd). It's like the horrible PvZ latelategame: you have to take out the workers. On August 16 2011 07:46 Techno wrote: Yes I agree that the fault of this is the medivacs. I find them dieing an awful lot. It would be extremely taxing for me to add medivac micro onto all the micro/macro I'm already doing in my 250APM TvP battles, but I'll try. Stim-->Stutter step-->EMP Maybe some focus fire. You don't need 250 apm to control a bioball... Ctrl-click medivacs and rightclick to the back of the army. Unless you're dropping (and controlling the drop) and fighting in a main battle at the same time, I doubt it requires 250 apm. | ||
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Truedot
444 Posts
On August 16 2011 07:09 Buzzo wrote: i don't see the problem, a terran need good emps to win against a late game Protoss army a protoss need good force fields to survive terran early aggression etc... and yes balance only matter for the highest level of play. the major issue with this reply happens to run thus: Protoss just has to survive for a little bit until late game happens. After that you can play an infinitely long game and Terran is always the one who has to struggle forevermore. Thus, its not balanced. Q.E.D. This is an example of logical fallacy. | ||
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galivet
288 Posts
It's always useful to drop a mule or a scan; you'll always get some benefit out of doing that. It's always useful to spawn larvae or expand creep. It's sometimes useful to spend chronoboost...e.g. if you have an upgrade building, or you have extra money and supply to be able to afford more units. But it's not uncommon to get into positions in a game where there just isn't anything beneficial to chrono. Shield regeneration is only useful if you enter combat and then disengage to let your shields recharge. It doesn't help you avoid losing units in combat like medivacs or zerg regen do (zerg healing is why a drone beats a probe; also roach regen). Even with blink micro, your stalkers don't regenerate shields in combat. So if you get into combat and lose without being able to escape, shield regen didn't help you at all. I feel like blizzard balances the races as if these race-specific mechanics are equal, but they aren't. | ||
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Aterons_toss
Romania1275 Posts
Also i believe is kinda pointless to whine about balance ( or discus it ) since even at the pro level ppl still do stupid mistakes that could be avoided ( see Bomber last 20 TvT's ) that will cost them the game. A much better approach would be... is this balanced for the amount of skill you put into it. For example i think 1/1/1 is theoretically balance and can be held off by a toss doing the right things, practically a toddler can execute a 1/1/1 decently enough to kill a platinum level toss ( Yes, i bet you in 2 years min wheat will be able to do so ) and a diamond terran could beat a GM toss or zerg with a 1/1/1 all in ( and yes i know ppl that did so and where diamond/low-master ) and the toss would need a fucking no mistake defense to hold it off. So is 1/1/1 imbalanced ? No, is 1/1/1 to fucking easy to execute and to hard to hold of ? Yes Same goes for all the colossus and infestor based play, Destiny is able to beat ppl that are insanely good due to him using infestor which is a easy to use unit that can turn the tides of battle with the smallest mistake from the enemy ( best example is infestor MCing tanks/thor when the terran is not fast enough at target firing them and infestor catchin vikings of pos and killing them with fungual with the terran not being able to do anything ) Hell even 6 pool is a strategy that can beat a GSL level pro and can be done by a bronze level player. I don't think this game is balanced and i think everyone who thinks changes won't be made for 5 more years up until is bw like balanced or wc3 like balanced is mad BUT ppl need to get better for us to actually know what is truly imbalanced, you can't say ff is imbalanced until zerg players don't learn how to flank ( see: every game Idra plays ) you can't say Bl infestor is imbalanced until terrans dont learn how to micro there ghosts you can say infestor is imbalanced until toss learns how to engage zerg infestor heavy armys properly you can't say chargelot archon is imbalanced if terrans don't hit with enough EMP's,,, i could go on for days but i think you get my point here. On August 17 2011 01:59 galivet wrote: I dislike that some of the important protoss racial mechanics are only situationally useful rather than universally useful as are the corresponding racial mechanics for the other two races. Here's what I mean: It's always useful to drop a mule or a scan; you'll always get some benefit out of doing that. It's always useful to spawn larvae or expand creep. It's sometimes useful to spend chronoboost...e.g. if you have an upgrade building, or you have extra money and supply to be able to afford more units. But it's not uncommon to get into positions in a game where there just isn't anything beneficial to chrono. Shield regeneration is only useful if you enter combat and then disengage to let your shields recharge. It doesn't help you avoid losing units in combat like medivacs or zerg regen do (zerg healing is why a drone beats a probe; also roach regen). Even with blink micro, your stalkers don't regenerate shields in combat. So if you get into combat and lose without being able to escape, shield regen didn't help you at all. I feel like blizzard balances the races as if these race-specific mechanics are equal, but they aren't. Blink stalkers that regen hp... hmhmh maybe give them 10 hps when they blink just like roaches when they burrow... damn give FUCK balanced i want blink stalkers that regen hp ! | ||
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galivet
288 Posts
- No unit does bonus damage against shields. Meaning, marauders don't do bonus damage against stalkers until the stalker shields are fully depleted. This compensates for the shield mechanic's current uselessness (it's like zerg regen, except you can only regen half your HP and only when not in battle). - Scan only detects burrowed units (including creep tumors) but does not detect cloaked units. Terran can use turrets, ravens, and EMP for decloaking and save scan for scouting. - Decrease immortal build time by 30%. - Decrease templar archives build time by 50%. | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On August 17 2011 01:58 Truedot wrote: the major issue with this reply happens to run thus: Protoss just has to survive for a little bit until late game happens. After that you can play an infinitely long game and Terran is always the one who has to struggle forevermore. Thus, its not balanced. Q.E.D. This is an example of logical fallacy. It isn't "a little bit". | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
As I said, Infestors are fine, they're not "broken" or "OP", but I do feel that there should not be a unit that is always good no matter what. If you compare their counterparts in Terran or Protoss, it's not the same: Ghosts aren't good against Terran except in cutesy builds or for Nukes. They are only good vs Zerg late-game when there are Infestors, Brood Lords, and/or Ultralisks. Against Protoss, they're always nice for EMP and Sniping HTs. High Templar aren't really great in PvP unless the enemy is really Zealot/Sentry heavy or some such thing, or for Feedbacking other HTs. They're good against some Zerg builds for Storm, but Roach/Ultra builds basically walk over them. They do well vs MMM, but are quickly countered by Ghosts, which are a staple in almost every TvP build. Infestors: - Good against large units (NP) - Good against massed units (Fungal) - Good for Harass (Destiny IT attacks) - Good against other casters (NP) - Stealthed movement (Burrow, no upgrade needed aside from Burrow itself) - Medium speed off creep, relatively fast on creep - Does well solo, with Burrow move and IT army Ghosts: - Good against large biological units (Snipe) - Useless against large mechanical units - Good against massed Protoss (EMP) - Decent against other massed units (Nuke) - Good against casters (EMP) - Ok for harass (Quick Cloak play QXC style to kill workers or Nuking expansions) - Stealthed movement (Requires upgrade, drains energy) - Medium speed - Decent/bad attack once out of energy - Does OK solo with Cloak and Snipe (bio targets only) High Templar: - Good against massed units (Storm) - Useless against large units - Good against casters (Feedback) (aside: I guess it's usable on non-casters like the Thor... but that's very situational) - Slow speed - Decent for harass (Storm, hard to get in and out though and very costly) - Good once out of energy (Archon) - Does bad solo, slow target with tell-tale shimmer to denote themselves. I tried to be as impartial as possible, and even as a Zerg player, it doesn't look like there are a lot of downsides to the Infestor. It is a good answer to many things you'll come across. While it's powers are balanced for the most part, I just don't think it's ok to have one unit that can be your go-to tech all game every game. | ||
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Truedot
444 Posts
On August 17 2011 02:05 galivet wrote: If I had to suggest balance changes, they would be these: - No unit does bonus damage against shields. Meaning, marauders don't do bonus damage against stalkers until the stalker shields are fully depleted. This compensates for the shield mechanic's current uselessness (it's like zerg regen, except you can only regen half your HP and only when not in battle). - Scan only detects burrowed units (including creep tumors) but does not detect cloaked units. Terran can use turrets, ravens, and EMP for decloaking and save scan for scouting against protoss. - Decrease immortal build time by 30%. - Decrease templar archives build time by 50%. ehh.. that would really own zerg. I rushed immortal ht vs zerg before. around the 9 minute mark had some immortals and HTs storming them. u get surrounded by lings? storm over the immortals. Roaches? immortals + storm waxes them. you have to consider the fact that what you're suggesting will rapidly change PvZ and make Z much more disadvantaged early game vs P. 1 thing affects another affects another. endless stream of consequences. life. | ||
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galivet
288 Posts
On August 17 2011 02:09 Truedot wrote: ehh.. that would really own zerg. I rushed immortal ht vs zerg before. around the 9 minute mark had some immortals and HTs storming them. u get surrounded by lings? storm over the immortals. Roaches? immortals + storm waxes them. you have to consider the fact that what you're suggesting will rapidly change PvZ and make Z much more disadvantaged early game vs P. 1 thing affects another affects another. endless stream of consequences. life. vOv ZvP is already in the zerg's favor since the infestor buff; that's the reason for the protoss buffs. Wouldn't need to buff them if it was already balanced... | ||
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IronDoc
United Kingdom27 Posts
On August 17 2011 01:52 Truedot wrote: I will disagree with you on this. You dont make the roof of a house and try to build under it. The game should be balanced at the lowest levels of play so that there is a clear baseline capability to defend or attack againt standard masses like mass VR and other silly nonsense. it takes a LOT more skill to defend against 1 mass unit like mass marines at 8 minutes or mass VRs than it takes to fight a well comp'd unit with your well comp'd unit. You numbers of unit comp and units themselves have to be very precise, not to mention micro control. its alot easier to be a micro aggressor with a Mass X unit thats been proven time and again to be extremely powerful versus sub-optimal unit comps.The level of knowledge and skill required to do :Mass X", therefore, is nothing compared to the level of knowledge and skill required to counter "Mass X". hence why so many people can faceroll into plat or diamond easily by finding a BO for one of these unit types and win 2/3 of their games before someone who can deal with the build from actual game knowledge comes along and keeps them from getting higher in leagues, because they actually don't know or understand the game, and simply picked a BO that has been proven to have a high winning rate vs average players, such as 7RR, 2 rax all in, mass VR, banshee mass vs zerg, etc. My point is that the game, if it were to be truly balanced, would be balanced at the lowest levels of play, so that countering people is a decision of making the proper units, and the proper units are about 20% harder to make and use vs the Mass X function, since winning vs it thereby causes you to gain a lead, so it should rightfully be difficult in some aspect. With this in mind, then you would see at the highest levels of play, timing becomes a more critical factor (not that it isnt already), good unit comps are much more valuable, and real skills like micro and strategic and tactical setups and decisions, all start making a bigger impact than "Mass X because this will insta-win since they cant deal with it". In short, balanced at the lowest levels of play would translate into more tactical play in higher levels and make the game much more exciting and interesting. You don't see chess balanced around highest levels of play. there's a baseline balance, via mirror pieces 1 hit kills, that prevents chess "cheese". All truly compettive non-computer games take this into account. There's either a limited number of pieces, a limited number of powerful pieces, and/or everyone gets the same powers/units. SC2 is in complete opposition to that, and I'm surprised its as balanced as it is, yet from the fact that infestor is the only clear counter to mass VR, which in itself has been whined to death as being OP, and that someone was able to micro stimmed mass marines as their only unit and beat all the supposed protoss counter units and win the game, I think that it would be much more useful to balance it from the bottom up. Starcraft 1 felt like this. of course if they did this, casuals wouldnt faceroll so well anymore and they'd lose revenue from people saying SC2 is a tough game and not for "casuals". The game cannot be balanced at both the highest level and the lowest level. Surely you see that? If you balance it for lower levels, then anything which becomes disproportionately stronger as skill increases will be unbalanced for pros. The only way you can achieve both is by there being the exact same reward for increased micro for every race and this must be true at every level. The only way this can be true is just by making the races fundamentally identical. If one concedes that it can only really be balanced at a certain level, I think most would agree that that level should be the one at which money is riding on matches. I have no idea what you're talking about with chess analogy. In chess, there are only 2 races and they are universally agreed to be imbalanced. | ||
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IronDoc
United Kingdom27 Posts
On August 17 2011 02:05 galivet wrote: If I had to suggest balance changes, they would be these: - No unit does bonus damage against shields. Meaning, marauders don't do bonus damage against stalkers until the stalker shields are fully depleted. This compensates for the shield mechanic's current uselessness (it's like zerg regen, except you can only regen half your HP and only when not in battle). - Scan only detects burrowed units (including creep tumors) but does not detect cloaked units. Terran can use turrets, ravens, and EMP for decloaking and save scan for scouting. - Decrease immortal build time by 30%. - Decrease templar archives build time by 50%. That's a very heavy buff for protoss. I know they're losing disproportionately right now (or when I last saw tournament results) but you'd really need to see where the metagame heads before introducing such drastic changes. | ||
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galivet
288 Posts
We agree that if the game is balanced around what pro players can achieve/abuse, then it won't be balanced for the bottom 98% of players who can't match the pros. Blizzard is still trying to make money from selling this game in retail, so they can't balance it at the top level at the expense of average joe gamer. The vast majority of blizzard's customer base for the two remaining expansions plays below even the Masters level; if they alienate those people to make the game balanced for the pros then they will lose way more money than they will gain. But as soon as the last expansion in the series hits the bargain bin at Gamestop, blizzard will then finally start trying to balance the game for real at the pro level, because their only significant ongoing source of revenue from Starcraft 2 will be e-sports kickbacks. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if they know exactly what those balance changes are for the game as it stands today...they just won't release them because it would cause a mass outcry from the unskilled. To them the changes won't look balanced at all. Game balance is all about $$$$$$$$ for blizzard. The emperor has no clothes, but if you want to still have a pro e-sports scene to enjoy in 2015 then you had better play along with the charade. | ||
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pwadoc
271 Posts
On August 17 2011 02:06 Requizen wrote: I've said it a lot: I don't think the Infestor is imbalanced, but I do think it is far too versatile. It is at least somewhat useful against every unit of every race at almost any point in the game. There is nearly no situation where you'd say "Oh, Infestors are a bad idea here". Even when the 'counters', HTs and Ghosts, are present, they are useful with enough micro. As I said, Infestors are fine, they're not "broken" or "OP", but I do feel that there should not be a unit that is always good no matter what. If you compare their counterparts in Terran or Protoss, it's not the same: Ghosts aren't good against Terran except in cutesy builds or for Nukes. They are only good vs Zerg late-game when there are Infestors, Brood Lords, and/or Ultralisks. Against Protoss, they're always nice for EMP and Sniping HTs. High Templar aren't really great in PvP unless the enemy is really Zealot/Sentry heavy or some such thing, or for Feedbacking other HTs. They're good against some Zerg builds for Storm, but Roach/Ultra builds basically walk over them. They do well vs MMM, but are quickly countered by Ghosts, which are a staple in almost every TvP build. Infestors: - Good against large units (NP) - Good against massed units (Fungal) - Good for Harass (Destiny IT attacks) - Good against other casters (NP) - Stealthed movement (Burrow, no upgrade needed aside from Burrow itself) - Medium speed off creep, relatively fast on creep - Does well solo, with Burrow move and IT army Ghosts: - Good against large biological units (Snipe) - Useless against large mechanical units - Good against massed Protoss (EMP) - Decent against other massed units (Nuke) - Good against casters (EMP) - Ok for harass (Quick Cloak play QXC style to kill workers or Nuking expansions) - Stealthed movement (Requires upgrade, drains energy) - Medium speed - Decent/bad attack once out of energy - Does OK solo with Cloak and Snipe (bio targets only) High Templar: - Good against massed units (Storm) - Useless against large units - Good against casters (Feedback) (aside: I guess it's usable on non-casters like the Thor... but that's very situational) - Slow speed - Decent for harass (Storm, hard to get in and out though and very costly) - Good once out of energy (Archon) - Does bad solo, slow target with tell-tale shimmer to denote themselves. I tried to be as impartial as possible, and even as a Zerg player, it doesn't look like there are a lot of downsides to the Infestor. It is a good answer to many things you'll come across. While it's powers are balanced for the most part, I just don't think it's ok to have one unit that can be your go-to tech all game every game. Zerg is balanced around the infestor currently. You can't nerf the infestor without making even more problems for zerg TvZ, and reverting to deathball play in ZvP. I'm also not entirely convinced that the problems in ZvP are balance issues so much as toss are learning to deal with a new zerg style, and coping with the loss of the deathball. They had it really easy for a very long time against Z, and adapting is going to be hard. The terran matchups are much more obviously problematic. | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
Colossus - I'm not sure how else to change this except change it's attack properties. In the TLPD Colossus it says the attack is 15(+2)(x2). Rather I think a decent change would be 10(x2) with +5 to biological units. This way mech could be a bit more viable and PvP might not be so reliant on colossus. Although, this might make that 1/1/1 push more effective. I don't play P nor T very much but I've heard Wolf talk about how you need colossus to deal with 1/1/1 but I don't know how reliable of advice that is. This wouldn't help ZvP but I think Protoss needs the colossus to not die to mass roach so the damage output would be the same. If this change did go through, the immortal would need some kind of buff to make it the counter to mech which it currently isn't doing well at (immortal vs thor as an example) Hellions - Well there has been a lot of discussion on this unit. Some suggest changing the hellions cost to something like 50/25 but any addition to gas would ruin the unit and tech of terran and we wouldn't ever see it used in conjunction with mech, instead we'd just see marines + tank + thor. I think a better choice is leave the cost the same but change it's bonus damage to not effect workers. Perhaps remove the "light" tag that workers have so they don't get owned as badly, This would also effect banelings on workers so a better way would be to only modify the hellion so that it doesn't do bonus to workers. Instead of dying in 4 shots to Red Hellions and dying in 2 shots to Blue Hellions it could be 5 shots for Red and 3 shots for Blue, still enough for 3 hellion drop to do significant damage but generally at least one hellion dies quickly allowing for more time to split those workers. Warp Prism - Simply swap the shields with HP so that it survives longer. I might even suggest changing the tech of this unit to stargate so that we could see the important colossus production from robos not halt and still see warp prisms being made from stargates. I don't know where it's speed upgrade would go other than Fleet beacon which seems excessive or put it on the cybernetics core allowing for the upgrade to actually be used after WG is researched. Mother Ship - This unit is trash, I only see it as a novelty or if Kiwikaki does it. I think it's uses with Recall are certainly the best part about it, but why couldn't we just have arbiters? This is where I feel like the mother ship should just be removed from the game and replaced with arbiters. Carrier - I have no idea how to fix this unit but it's lack of play time is really disturbing. I mean weren't carriers the best way to end a game PvT in BW? Now it's just mass gateway with colossus and high templar. Make fleet beacon easier to obtain is the answer I think. It should cost less as it's currently 300/200 which is 100 more than a robotics bay and colossus are WAY more useful right now. I think blizzard should adjust it how they see fit. Corrupter - Remove this unit, replace with scourge. Zerg needs another massable unit and why not the scourge? For an AA only unit why do we have to invest 150/100 into a unit that does merely nothing but counter colossi or help late game ZvT with infestor/broodlord. This unit is practically USELESS besides those that I listed. I think scourge would just be a lot better because they can scout and they can be used to threaten other air units as well as colossi. Perhaps spawn larva would be too much since you could mass a lot of them quickly to counter colossi or drops and be done with it? So up the cost which is currently 25/75 so perhaps up it to 50/75 or 25/100. Other thoughts - Blizzard talked about the overseer, but I like this unit. Not only is it a faster overlord but it can drop a changeling (which is awesome) as well as delay macro with contaminate. I'd like to see the thor replaced with goliaths. I'd say make goliaths cheaper and less durable so that you can make them from reactors or make them very versatile and strong but must require a tech lab. | ||
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EPT
i think i know you all will hate me but if protoss not get buffed or other two get nerfed in 1-2 seasons we have only huk left in GSL 
) equalized by the tons of free-wins you can get by doing clever timing pushes (no, not 111).
