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On January 21 2016 01:29 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2016 01:24 Vanadiel wrote:
The fact is that right now, Terran player perform quite well and does not seems so weak in any match up in Korea. The problem isn't the numbers, the problem is that when Terran loses TvP, it's off the back of shit that makes you want to pull your hair out. The gameplay of the game is bad. The longer it takes for Blizzard to patch shitty things like Adepts, the more time is wasted by Koreans on developing an inconsequential meta, thereby prolonging the time until we have a meta that's remotely stable.
Exactly this, If will lose, I'd rather lose to someone outplayed me not outshitted me.
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On January 21 2016 01:56 royalroadweed wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2016 01:46 Big J wrote:On January 21 2016 01:29 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 21 2016 01:24 Vanadiel wrote:
The fact is that right now, Terran player perform quite well and does not seems so weak in any match up in Korea. The problem isn't the numbers, the problem is that when Terran loses TvP, it's off the back of shit that makes you want to pull your hair out. The gameplay of the game is bad.The longer it takes for Blizzard to patch shitty things like Adepts, the more time is wasted by Koreans on developing an inconsequential meta, thereby prolonging the time until we have a meta that's remotely stable. Did they nerf the oracle when the same argument was made? How about DTs, has it ever been fun to lose to a DT rush? What about canon rush PvZ? Has there been a change just because it was stupidly frustrating? Forcefield on the ramp, was that ever adressed by a patch? the list of things that led to very anti-climactic games goes on and on. The game, and in particular PvX has always had tons of such strategies. They weren't adressed back then, don't know why you expect a change. The only times that they were adressed was when there was clear imbalance. If there is no imbalance, blizzard is going to leave the adept/prism in the game as it is and then Koreans (and everybody else, dunno why you highlight Koreans, I personally would be worried about my own playtime a billion times more) will have to use their time to learn the strategies that make it fair. They did address swarmhosts in hots and split mech upgrades in lotv. I guess blizz never touched protoss because it isn't as simple as nerfing something (with a few exceptions).
They adressed swarm hosts because of scheduling problems in tournaments. I guess there was just no good way around it.
Splitting the upgrades was something done from one expansion to the other. They have adressed a lot of things between expansions, very, very few afterwards. And for anything harassment they seem to take the stance that once players get better "it becomes worse" (which is obviously true because the strategical alternative is losing, which is no alternative), so I don't see adepts getting nerfed if it turns out they aren't broken. Which I don't think is the case, I think they look very broken at the moment in TvP.
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On January 21 2016 01:58 WrathSCII wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2016 01:29 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 21 2016 01:24 Vanadiel wrote:
The fact is that right now, Terran player perform quite well and does not seems so weak in any match up in Korea. The problem isn't the numbers, the problem is that when Terran loses TvP, it's off the back of shit that makes you want to pull your hair out. The gameplay of the game is bad. The longer it takes for Blizzard to patch shitty things like Adepts, the more time is wasted by Koreans on developing an inconsequential meta, thereby prolonging the time until we have a meta that's remotely stable. Exactly this, If will lose, I'd rather lose to someone outplayed me not outshitted me.
What kind of argument is that? Assuming the game is balanced, if you lose to a Protoss, then that by definition means that he outplayed you.
Do you think that as a Protoss player I enjoy getting rekt by WMs and Liberators? No of course not. I find these units just as shitty and losing to them just as lame as you do losing to Adepts, Oracles and DTs.
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For any Magic the Gathering players out there (Thieving Magpie)...
People just don't like losing to Protoss. No one ever thinks they were out played by Protoss.. they always just go "Protoss bullshit."
Protoss is the Blue of StarCraft.
When someone plays a big trample creature and kills you with it, you go "oh, I was out played."
When someone mind controls your giant trample creature and kills you with it, you go "fuck blue."
There are a lot of frustrating Protoss strategies but I do think it makes the game a lot more diverse strategically and more entertaining.
Without sneaky Protoss bullshit HotS would have been just a bunch of people splitting marines against banelings.
We'd never have gotten Idra's ragequit to Huk's hallucinations (still the funniest shit ever).
We'd have no Parting or MC or any of the hilarity and swagger they brought to the game.
Learn to love the Protoss bullshit and deal with it. The Protoss player is using the tools he has at his disposal. Don't hate the game. Hate the player :p
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On January 21 2016 02:41 DinoMight wrote:
Without sneaky Protoss bullshit HotS would have been just a bunch of people splitting marines against banelings.
You say that like its a bad thing :p
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On January 21 2016 02:41 DinoMight wrote:
For any Magic the Gathering players out there (Thieving Magpie)...
People just don't like losing to Protoss. No one ever thinks they were out played by Protoss.. they always just go "Protoss bullshit."
Protoss is the Blue of StarCraft.
When someone plays a big trample creature and kills you with it, you go "oh, I was out played."
When someone mind controls your giant trample creature and kills you with it, you go "fuck blue."
There are a lot of frustrating Protoss strategies but I do think it makes the game a lot more diverse strategically and more entertaining.
Without sneaky Protoss bullshit HotS would have been just a bunch of people splitting marines against banelings.
We'd never have gotten Idra's ragequit to Huk's hallucinations (still the funniest shit ever).
We'd have no Parting or MC or any of the hilarity and swagger they brought to the game.
Learn to love the Protoss bullshit and deal with it. The Protoss player is using the tools he has at his disposal. Don't hate the game. Hate the player :p
I don't think that's why people don't like blue. The problem with blue is (or was, haven't played in some years and M10 really improved Magic a lot in that sense) that blue prevents your plays which makes it boring to play against it. Blue is the BL/Infestor of Magic, all it does is prevent that you get anything done until it gets all its pieces and then hits you with a combo.
I do think in a game you want to get rid of frustrating elements.
And I believe the "sneaky Protoss bullshit" you talk about is the reason why Protoss only seems to be balanced when any single gameplan of Protoss is slightly too weak, as Protoss makes up for that by getting freewins if the opponent just happens to get unlucky. Whenever Protoss has single balanced strategies you get 50% into Premier because that's how the good Protoss win against worse players, while worse Protoss have a higher chance to beat better opponents just by relying on diversification of bullshit.
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On January 21 2016 02:41 DinoMight wrote:
For any Magic the Gathering players out there (Thieving Magpie)...
People just don't like losing to Protoss. No one ever thinks they were out played by Protoss.. they always just go "Protoss bullshit."
Protoss is the Blue of StarCraft.
When someone plays a big trample creature and kills you with it, you go "oh, I was out played."
When someone mind controls your giant trample creature and kills you with it, you go "fuck blue."
There are a lot of frustrating Protoss strategies but I do think it makes the game a lot more diverse strategically and more entertaining.
Without sneaky Protoss bullshit HotS would have been just a bunch of people splitting marines against banelings.
We'd never have gotten Idra's ragequit to Huk's hallucinations (still the funniest shit ever).
We'd have no Parting or MC or any of the hilarity and swagger they brought to the game.
Learn to love the Protoss bullshit and deal with it. The Protoss player is using the tools he has at his disposal. Don't hate the game. Hate the player :p
Funny post but wrong and silly on most parts. And we have a very good example to understand this : early 2014 HotS blink all-in silliness, when MSC had this insane vision range, maps were stupid, window mines hadn't the + shield bonus and time warp was lasting like forever.
Everybody was ragin at protoss.Then all of these were patched and the stupidity in the match up was removed.
Good protoss kept winning (Zest, Parting, sOs, herO, Classic, ...) and everybody applauded them and recognized them as genius of the game and mechanics monsters.
Today's adept is very much like early 2014 blink all-in area (ability to do insane damage while expanding uncontested, being able to end game if terran is not positioned well or if his trutling is not good enough, etc...) except it's even sillier cause blink micro was micro at least, adept micro is simply non existent.
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On January 21 2016 03:18 Gwavajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2016 02:41 DinoMight wrote:
For any Magic the Gathering players out there (Thieving Magpie)...
People just don't like losing to Protoss. No one ever thinks they were out played by Protoss.. they always just go "Protoss bullshit."
Protoss is the Blue of StarCraft.
When someone plays a big trample creature and kills you with it, you go "oh, I was out played."
When someone mind controls your giant trample creature and kills you with it, you go "fuck blue."
There are a lot of frustrating Protoss strategies but I do think it makes the game a lot more diverse strategically and more entertaining.
Without sneaky Protoss bullshit HotS would have been just a bunch of people splitting marines against banelings.
We'd never have gotten Idra's ragequit to Huk's hallucinations (still the funniest shit ever).
We'd have no Parting or MC or any of the hilarity and swagger they brought to the game.
Learn to love the Protoss bullshit and deal with it. The Protoss player is using the tools he has at his disposal. Don't hate the game. Hate the player :p
Funny post but wrong and silly on most parts. And we have a very good example to understand this : early 2014 HotS blink all-in silliness, when MSC had this insane vision range, maps were stupid, window mines hadn't the + shield bonus and time warp was lasting like forever. Everybody was ragin at protoss.Then all of these were patched and the stupidity in the match up was removed. Good protoss kept winning (Zest, Parting, sOs, herO, Classic, ...) and everybody applauded them and recognized them as genius of the game and mechanics monsters. Today's adept is very much like early 2014 blink all-in area (ability to do insane damage while expanding uncontested, being able to end game if terran is not positioned well or if his trutling is not good enough, etc...) except it's even sillier cause blink micro was micro at least, adept micro is simply non existent.
There is a huge difference between godly and terrible adept micro.
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On January 21 2016 03:18 Gwavajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2016 02:41 DinoMight wrote:
For any Magic the Gathering players out there (Thieving Magpie)...
People just don't like losing to Protoss. No one ever thinks they were out played by Protoss.. they always just go "Protoss bullshit."
Protoss is the Blue of StarCraft.
When someone plays a big trample creature and kills you with it, you go "oh, I was out played."
When someone mind controls your giant trample creature and kills you with it, you go "fuck blue."
There are a lot of frustrating Protoss strategies but I do think it makes the game a lot more diverse strategically and more entertaining.
Without sneaky Protoss bullshit HotS would have been just a bunch of people splitting marines against banelings.
We'd never have gotten Idra's ragequit to Huk's hallucinations (still the funniest shit ever).
We'd have no Parting or MC or any of the hilarity and swagger they brought to the game.
Learn to love the Protoss bullshit and deal with it. The Protoss player is using the tools he has at his disposal. Don't hate the game. Hate the player :p
Everybody was ragin at protoss.Then all of these were patched and the stupidity in the match up was removed. Good protoss kept winning (Zest, Parting, sOs, herO, Classic, ...) and everybody applauded them and recognized them as genius of the game and mechanics monsters.
A fairly romantic version.
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On January 21 2016 03:29 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2016 03:18 Gwavajuice wrote:On January 21 2016 02:41 DinoMight wrote:
For any Magic the Gathering players out there (Thieving Magpie)...
People just don't like losing to Protoss. No one ever thinks they were out played by Protoss.. they always just go "Protoss bullshit."
Protoss is the Blue of StarCraft.
When someone plays a big trample creature and kills you with it, you go "oh, I was out played."
When someone mind controls your giant trample creature and kills you with it, you go "fuck blue."
There are a lot of frustrating Protoss strategies but I do think it makes the game a lot more diverse strategically and more entertaining.
Without sneaky Protoss bullshit HotS would have been just a bunch of people splitting marines against banelings.
We'd never have gotten Idra's ragequit to Huk's hallucinations (still the funniest shit ever).
We'd have no Parting or MC or any of the hilarity and swagger they brought to the game.
Learn to love the Protoss bullshit and deal with it. The Protoss player is using the tools he has at his disposal. Don't hate the game. Hate the player :p
Everybody was ragin at protoss.Then all of these were patched and the stupidity in the match up was removed. Good protoss kept winning (Zest, Parting, sOs, herO, Classic, ...) and everybody applauded them and recognized them as genius of the game and mechanics monsters. A fairly romantic version.
Especially considering that after the long period of protoss dominance, we had another lengthy period of Terran dominance in the TvP matchup. (Not to mention a good deal of absurdity that Protoss players would consider the widowmine having full damage radius and + shields damage).
But, at the end of the day, Protoss learned to deal with the widowmines, and I think a great example is Lilbow vs Bunny in the 2015 season 2 WCS finals, where Bunny tried numerous times to pull off the infamous widowmine drop that a year prior wrecked Protoss, and Lilbow held it off perfectly.
I have to say that is truly difficult to tell whether it was indeed balance that was wrong or whether players needed to "adept" to it. Though in this case, it does certainly seem like adepts + wp are not balanced. But that's the thing with Protoss; they may have a strategy that is indeed imbalanced, but if you overnerf them, then the balance can swing heavily in favour of the other race. 2014 is a prime example of this fact.
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There are a lot of frustrating Protoss strategies but I do think it makes the game a lot more diverse strategically and more entertaining.
Without sneaky Protoss bullshit HotS would have been just a bunch of people splitting marines against banelings.
That's a terrible way of rewarding diversity. Diversity should come through different choices that are fun to play and play against.
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On January 21 2016 02:41 DinoMight wrote:
For any Magic the Gathering players out there (Thieving Magpie)...
People just don't like losing to Protoss. No one ever thinks they were out played by Protoss.. they always just go "Protoss bullshit."
Protoss is the Blue of StarCraft.
When someone plays a big trample creature and kills you with it, you go "oh, I was out played."
When someone mind controls your giant trample creature and kills you with it, you go "fuck blue."
There are a lot of frustrating Protoss strategies but I do think it makes the game a lot more diverse strategically and more entertaining.
You are absolutely right that Protoss is MTG's Blue. What I disagree with is the notion that SC2 should have a Blue race.
Every single race in SC2 should be every single color.
Why?
1. Perfecting a race in SC2 is infinitely more difficult than perfecting a deck in MTG. Blue is fair(er) because any pro at any time can pick up a blue deck and play it reasonably well. Innovation can't just say "well if you can't beat em join em time to play Protoss and beat Zest in a PvP."
2. Sc2 has pretensions of being something that remotely resembles an actual sport. There is not a single actual sport where different teams are graded on completely different skillsets. It just makes no sense. You're evaluating the Terran based on his ability to multitasking and scout and identify the threat, and you're evaluating the Protoss based on his ability to pick a random strategy? It's just nonsensical. The races will never be the same, but the skillsets being tested for should be as analogous as humanly possible.
I honestly don't see how this is arguable, without completely delegitimizing SC2 as a fair competition in the process.
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On January 21 2016 04:45 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2016 02:41 DinoMight wrote:
For any Magic the Gathering players out there (Thieving Magpie)...
People just don't like losing to Protoss. No one ever thinks they were out played by Protoss.. they always just go "Protoss bullshit."
Protoss is the Blue of StarCraft.
When someone plays a big trample creature and kills you with it, you go "oh, I was out played."
When someone mind controls your giant trample creature and kills you with it, you go "fuck blue."
There are a lot of frustrating Protoss strategies but I do think it makes the game a lot more diverse strategically and more entertaining.
You are absolutely right that Protoss is MTG's Blue. What I disagree with is the notion that SC2 should have a Blue race. Every single race in SC2 should be every single color. Why? 1. Perfecting a race in SC2 is infinitely more difficult than perfecting a deck in MTG. Blue is fair(er) because any pro at any time can pick up a blue deck and play it reasonably well. Innovation can't just say "well if you can't beat em join em time to play Protoss and beat Zest in a PvP." 2. Sc2 has pretensions of being something that remotely resembles an actual sport. There is not a single actual sport where different teams are graded on completely different skillsets. It just makes no sense. You're evaluating the Terran based on his ability to multitasking and scout and identify the threat, and you're evaluating the Protoss based on his ability to pick a random strategy? It's just nonsensical. The races will never be the same, but the skillsets being tested for should be as analogous as humanly possible. I honestly don't see how this is arguable, without completely delegitimizing SC2 as a fair competition in the process.
This seems like an interesting and nuanced argument. Albeit this might be the wine and cantuccini speaking, so I'll come back to it tomorrow for sure. In the mean time, I'd be glad if people took this seriously and tried to find counterarguments, and especially counterexamples from other and well established sports.
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Oh I'm not saying the game is balanced because Protoss should be bullshit...
The game is a bit fucked up and I personally submitted my suggestions on how to nerf Protoss in TvP.
I'm just saying in general, nobody will ever be content losing to Protoss. No one ever has. Even as far back as BW. But when I play Terran, I get some special satisfaction from beating cheesy Protoss players. Just like when my Green fatty deck rolls over my buddy's annoying Blue deck.
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On January 21 2016 04:51 DinoMight wrote:
Oh I'm not saying the game is balanced because Protoss should be bullshit...
The game is a bit fucked up and I personally submitted my suggestions on how to nerf Protoss in TvP.
I'm just saying in general, nobody will ever be content losing to Protoss. No one ever has. Even as far back as BW. But when I play Terran, I get some special satisfaction from beating cheesy Protoss players. Just like when my Green fatty deck rolls over my buddy's annoying Blue deck.
I don't enjoy losing to any race :/ I don't find Protoss particularly annoying to lose to. Then I'm just a low level random player so maybe it's different in masters or something.
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On January 21 2016 05:12 Phredxor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2016 04:51 DinoMight wrote:
Oh I'm not saying the game is balanced because Protoss should be bullshit...
The game is a bit fucked up and I personally submitted my suggestions on how to nerf Protoss in TvP.
I'm just saying in general, nobody will ever be content losing to Protoss. No one ever has. Even as far back as BW. But when I play Terran, I get some special satisfaction from beating cheesy Protoss players. Just like when my Green fatty deck rolls over my buddy's annoying Blue deck.
I don't enjoy losing to any race :/ I don't find Protoss particularly annoying to lose to. Then I'm just a low level random player so maybe it's different in masters or something.
It's not. But if you ask Terran and Zerg players their respective races' "bullshitty stuff" is not as bullshitty as that of Protoss, because...well, because they play T/Z and not Protoss, and thus don't know how their races feel when played against.
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I find it funny that Protoss is always the target of so much vitriol
I hated how hard the protoss deathball was to stop, but LOTV fixed that.
Terran on the other hand is that race that you pin down on 3 bases and it still has ridiculously absurd threat potential because of how cost effective marines are
Why they thought giving marines a +5 hp upgrade and sc1 range upgrade free in SC2, and the shield upgrade, while making lings/zealots the same or worse is beyond me
You want better Thors and Cyclones and all that stuff? Too bad, because Marines
People talk about warp gate / FF as a huge design problem for toss, but marines countering practically everything has been a bigger problem since WOL
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On January 21 2016 11:17 Merkmerk wrote:
I find it funny that Protoss is always the target of so much vitriol
I hated how hard the protoss deathball was to stop, but LOTV fixed that.
Terran on the other hand is that race that you pin down on 3 bases and it still has ridiculously absurd threat potential because of how cost effective marines are
Why they thought giving marines a +5 hp upgrade and sc1 range upgrade free in SC2, and the shield upgrade, while making lings/zealots the same or worse is beyond me
You want better Thors and Cyclones and all that stuff? Too bad, because Marines
People talk about warp gate / FF as a huge design problem for toss, but marines countering practically everything has been a bigger problem since WOL
People like marines because they are so flexible and have incredibly high micro potential. "Marines" does not imply any specific playstyle because they can be used in so many. Other races don't have units as flexible as the marine, but when there is a stage in the meta when zergs use primarily ling-based compositions, or Protoss uses stalkers, no one has ever complained about lings and stalkers, only the sentries or the infestors. It's not really a double standard at all. And lo and behold, often when marines lack strong support units (as they have in TvZ when the mine was weak, at the end of WoL when tanks didn't do much anymore, and currently in TvP,) marines aren't so good. That's all anyone wants from factory and starport units (discounting any thoughts about mech): simply strong, versatile, flexible support units that complement many playstyles well. The mine fills this, tankivacs do in some matchups but not in others, the liberator fills this to some degree, but cyclones do not at all.
The Protoss deathball is still hard to stop. Tempests lategame with storm and some ground army is still nearly unbeatable from Terran.
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On January 21 2016 11:33 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2016 11:17 Merkmerk wrote:
I find it funny that Protoss is always the target of so much vitriol
I hated how hard the protoss deathball was to stop, but LOTV fixed that.
Terran on the other hand is that race that you pin down on 3 bases and it still has ridiculously absurd threat potential because of how cost effective marines are
Why they thought giving marines a +5 hp upgrade and sc1 range upgrade free in SC2, and the shield upgrade, while making lings/zealots the same or worse is beyond me
You want better Thors and Cyclones and all that stuff? Too bad, because Marines
People talk about warp gate / FF as a huge design problem for toss, but marines countering practically everything has been a bigger problem since WOL People like marines because they are so flexible and have incredibly high micro potential. "Marines" does not imply any specific playstyle because they can be used in so many. Other races don't have units as flexible as the marine, but when there is a stage in the meta when zergs use primarily ling-based compositions, or Protoss uses stalkers, no one has ever complained about lings and stalkers, only the sentries or the infestors. It's not really a double standard at all. And lo and behold, often when marines lack strong support units (as they have in TvZ when the mine was weak, at the end of WoL when tanks didn't do much anymore, and currently in TvP,) marines aren't so good. That's all anyone wants from factory and starport units (discounting any thoughts about mech): simply strong, versatile, flexible support units that complement many playstyles well. The mine fills this, tankivacs do in some matchups but not in others, the liberator fills this to some degree, but cyclones do not at all. The Protoss deathball is still hard to stop. Tempests lategame with storm and some ground army is still nearly unbeatable from Terran.
Marines are great in archon mode which is where merk is drawing majority of his complaint from. Bio is legit op there and he may have valid point...
Unfortunately his expetuence is from plat archon mode. So its just whining
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I dont get how the game has been out for 2 and a half months (officially) and nothing has been done to adepts. How many no name protoss players are going to advance deep in the GSL before blizzard pulls their head out of their ass??
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