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Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 1260

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FrkFrJss
Profile Joined April 2015
Canada1205 Posts
January 22 2016 05:14 GMT
#25181
I mean...I guess we'll have to see after Code S begins, but there are currently 6 Protoss, 8 Terran, and 6 Zerg in Code S. PvT is 1-1, and there are 3 TvPs left. So far, herO, Myungsik, seed, and Trap have advanced. None of those are particularly no name.

I'm not denying the imbalance, but so far, the results PURELY in the GSL (which is what you point towards) really don't point to Terran and Zerg performing worse than Protoss.

Also, Seed just made an interview that said how broken adepts were versus Terran, and many Protoss players in this thread have acknowledged the imbalance with the wp + adept matchup.
"Keep Moving Forward" - Walt Disney
Merkmerk
Profile Joined August 2010
United States96 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-01-22 15:15:50
January 22 2016 15:10 GMT
#25182
^

Sometimes balance isn't exclusively for 400 apm pros though. PvT is most assuredly broken at lower skill levels where the classic skill to execute vs skill to survive is vastly out of sync

Besides, sooner they nerf adept/wp for PvT, the sooner they can get around to nerfing Lolberators. They're next on the chopping block you can take that to the bank
Yodeleihelaihee
Thieving Magpie
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States6752 Posts
January 23 2016 08:40 GMT
#25183
On January 21 2016 02:41 DinoMight wrote:
For any Magic the Gathering players out there (Thieving Magpie)...

People just don't like losing to Protoss. No one ever thinks they were out played by Protoss.. they always just go "Protoss bullshit."

Protoss is the Blue of StarCraft.

When someone plays a big trample creature and kills you with it, you go "oh, I was out played."

When someone mind controls your giant trample creature and kills you with it, you go "fuck blue."

There are a lot of frustrating Protoss strategies but I do think it makes the game a lot more diverse strategically and more entertaining.

Without sneaky Protoss bullshit HotS would have been just a bunch of people splitting marines against banelings.


We'd never have gotten Idra's ragequit to Huk's hallucinations (still the funniest shit ever).

We'd have no Parting or MC or any of the hilarity and swagger they brought to the game.



Learn to love the Protoss bullshit and deal with it. The Protoss player is using the tools he has at his disposal. Don't hate the game. Hate the player :p


This is golden

Don't listen to the haters, this is gold right here <3
Hark, what baseball through yonder window breaks?
CheddarToss
Profile Joined September 2015
534 Posts
January 23 2016 20:00 GMT
#25184
Watching the uThermal vs PtitDrogo series I can't help but feeling the urge to throw up. Liberators are such an imbalanced unit, it's not even funny. Adepts are the definition of balance in comparison.
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12318 Posts
January 23 2016 20:06 GMT
#25185
On January 24 2016 05:00 CheddarToss wrote:
Watching the uThermal vs PtitDrogo series I can't help but feeling the urge to throw up. Liberators are such an imbalanced unit, it's not even funny. Adepts are the definition of balance in comparison.


As a general rule, when a series is 2-2 and close with nobody looking like he has a clear advantage, you shouldn't be throwing up.
No will to live, no wish to die
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
January 23 2016 20:51 GMT
#25186
it's not balance discussion but can someone explain how the ladder works to me

how is it that i am playing game after game at the top of diamond, and for some reason the ladder put me up against the same guy, who isn't even ranked, twice in a row. he doesnt even have ranked games played, so why am i playing him on the ladder. and if he is in placement then I still don't understand why 1.) he is playing someone who is basically low master mmr, and 2.) why is he playing the same guy twice(even after losing) in his placements?
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
January 23 2016 20:58 GMT
#25187
On January 24 2016 05:51 travis wrote:
it's not balance discussion but can someone explain how the ladder works to me

how is it that i am playing game after game at the top of diamond, and for some reason the ladder put me up against the same guy, who isn't even ranked, twice in a row. he doesnt even have ranked games played, so why am i playing him on the ladder. and if he is in placement then I still don't understand why 1.) he is playing someone who is basically low master mmr, and 2.) why is he playing the same guy twice(even after losing) in his placements?


You play games and by winning your MMR (match making rating) increases, by losing it falls. Dependent on your MMR suitable opponent's are chosen and you get placed into leagues if you are playing ranked.
So if your opponent is playing unranked he/she is not placed in a league, but might have a similar MMR to yours which won't change too much from just one loss, hence he/she might play you mutlitple times in a row.

Oh, and before I forget it, there is also a pretty useless point system with no meaning whatsoever in place to visualize your skill in comparison to others in your league.
Empirimancer
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada1024 Posts
January 23 2016 20:59 GMT
#25188
On January 22 2016 14:14 FrkFrJss wrote:
I mean...I guess we'll have to see after Code S begins, but there are currently 6 Protoss, 8 Terran, and 6 Zerg in Code S. PvT is 1-1, and there are 3 TvPs left. So far, herO, Myungsik, seed, and Trap have advanced. None of those are particularly no name.

I'm not denying the imbalance, but so far, the results PURELY in the GSL (which is what you point towards) really don't point to Terran and Zerg performing worse than Protoss.


But the Protoss have only lost to Zerg and other Protoss. The only exception is TY vs Patience, the best Terran in the world vs someone who probably shouldn't even be in Code A.


Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
January 23 2016 21:02 GMT
#25189
On January 24 2016 05:58 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 24 2016 05:51 travis wrote:
it's not balance discussion but can someone explain how the ladder works to me

how is it that i am playing game after game at the top of diamond, and for some reason the ladder put me up against the same guy, who isn't even ranked, twice in a row. he doesnt even have ranked games played, so why am i playing him on the ladder. and if he is in placement then I still don't understand why 1.) he is playing someone who is basically low master mmr, and 2.) why is he playing the same guy twice(even after losing) in his placements?


You play games and by winning your MMR (match making rating) increases, by losing it falls. Dependent on your MMR suitable opponent's are chosen and you get placed into leagues if you are playing ranked.
So if your opponent is playing unranked he/she is not placed in a league, but might have a similar MMR to yours which won't change too much from just one loss, hence he/she might play you mutlitple times in a row.

Oh, and before I forget it, there is also a pretty useless point system with no meaning whatsoever in place to visualize your skill in comparison to others in your league.


so then people playing unranked can be put up vs ranked players?
seems... stupid
lol
Shapelog
Profile Joined November 2015
United States5185 Posts
January 23 2016 21:14 GMT
#25190
On January 24 2016 06:02 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 24 2016 05:58 Big J wrote:
On January 24 2016 05:51 travis wrote:
it's not balance discussion but can someone explain how the ladder works to me

how is it that i am playing game after game at the top of diamond, and for some reason the ladder put me up against the same guy, who isn't even ranked, twice in a row. he doesnt even have ranked games played, so why am i playing him on the ladder. and if he is in placement then I still don't understand why 1.) he is playing someone who is basically low master mmr, and 2.) why is he playing the same guy twice(even after losing) in his placements?


You play games and by winning your MMR (match making rating) increases, by losing it falls. Dependent on your MMR suitable opponent's are chosen and you get placed into leagues if you are playing ranked.
So if your opponent is playing unranked he/she is not placed in a league, but might have a similar MMR to yours which won't change too much from just one loss, hence he/she might play you mutlitple times in a row.

Oh, and before I forget it, there is also a pretty useless point system with no meaning whatsoever in place to visualize your skill in comparison to others in your league.


so then people playing unranked can be put up vs ranked players?
seems... stupid
lol


I cry every time i play ladder because I get pared against a Diamond player (I am Bronze!) who is playing unranked.
Good Practice thou.
"Subsequently clicking post is like launching a doomsday's worth of nukes' equivalent in dopamine." -RB
keglu
Profile Joined June 2011
Poland485 Posts
January 23 2016 21:46 GMT
#25191
On January 23 2016 00:10 Merkmerk wrote:
^

Sometimes balance isn't exclusively for 400 apm pros though. PvT is most assuredly broken at lower skill levels where the classic skill to execute vs skill to survive is vastly out of sync

Besides, sooner they nerf adept/wp for PvT, the sooner they can get around to nerfing Lolberators. They're next on the chopping block you can take that to the bank



Ladder race distribution do not support this argument. Protoss is currently heavily underrepresnted in higher leagues (platinium-master) and overpresented in brozne-silver.
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
January 23 2016 23:00 GMT
#25192
On January 24 2016 05:00 CheddarToss wrote:
Watching the uThermal vs PtitDrogo series I can't help but feeling the urge to throw up. Liberators are such an imbalanced unit, it's not even funny. Adepts are the definition of balance in comparison.

A unit/build that can be hard countered by going stargate is imbalanced? The build even requires Terran to sacrifice the economy (to an extent) to perform. This is in contrast to the "quick 3rd expansion behind adept-warp prism harass that usually kills the Terran."

It's actually quite hilarious, if you seen casts of the adept harass. "[Terran] really shut that harass down! Was all over his base and just seemed impenetrable! [Protoss] wasn't able to do any meaningful damage and lost his adepts! Meanwhile, [Protoss] took his 3rd and Terran finally feels confident enough to move out and take his."

There's no mention of "He really needed to do damage with that attack..." or "BUT AT WHAT COST?!" It basically boils down to "Protoss attack failed, now we can continue the game on equal footing."
CheddarToss
Profile Joined September 2015
534 Posts
January 23 2016 23:47 GMT
#25193
On January 24 2016 08:00 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 24 2016 05:00 CheddarToss wrote:
Watching the uThermal vs PtitDrogo series I can't help but feeling the urge to throw up. Liberators are such an imbalanced unit, it's not even funny. Adepts are the definition of balance in comparison.

A unit/build that can be hard countered by going stargate is imbalanced? The build even requires Terran to sacrifice the economy (to an extent) to perform. This is in contrast to the "quick 3rd expansion behind adept-warp prism harass that usually kills the Terran."

It's actually quite hilarious, if you seen casts of the adept harass. "[Terran] really shut that harass down! Was all over his base and just seemed impenetrable! [Protoss] wasn't able to do any meaningful damage and lost his adepts! Meanwhile, [Protoss] took his 3rd and Terran finally feels confident enough to move out and take his."

There's no mention of "He really needed to do damage with that attack..." or "BUT AT WHAT COST?!" It basically boils down to "Protoss attack failed, now we can continue the game on equal footing."

And how is that different from Liberator harass? It does a lot of damage every single time. Have you seen the two games, where uThermal did just that vs PtitDrogo? Only two Liberators did soooooo much damage (a lot of lost mining time and dead probes), that when uThermal came knocking at Drogo's door, he had 4x the army supply of the latter. And the disgusting thing is, uThermal did nothing special, because Liberator harass doesn't require micro or anything. It's super safe and easy to perform, because of the amazing range Liberators have.
PinheadXXXXXX
Profile Joined February 2012
United States897 Posts
January 24 2016 00:29 GMT
#25194
On January 24 2016 08:00 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 24 2016 05:00 CheddarToss wrote:
Watching the uThermal vs PtitDrogo series I can't help but feeling the urge to throw up. Liberators are such an imbalanced unit, it's not even funny. Adepts are the definition of balance in comparison.

A unit/build that can be hard countered by going stargate is imbalanced? The build even requires Terran to sacrifice the economy (to an extent) to perform. This is in contrast to the "quick 3rd expansion behind adept-warp prism harass that usually kills the Terran."

It's actually quite hilarious, if you seen casts of the adept harass. "[Terran] really shut that harass down! Was all over his base and just seemed impenetrable! [Protoss] wasn't able to do any meaningful damage and lost his adepts! Meanwhile, [Protoss] took his 3rd and Terran finally feels confident enough to move out and take his."

There's no mention of "He really needed to do damage with that attack..." or "BUT AT WHAT COST?!" It basically boils down to "Protoss attack failed, now we can continue the game on equal footing."

I don't think that's necessarily bad design. Compare this to marine-mine-medivac builds off of a reaper expand in HotS TvP. Terran would generally come out even as long as they didn't lose all of their units for nothing. Generally, trading evenly would be good for terran, except in certain cases (such as an imminent blink allin), and it was totally acceptable to lose 10 marines and 2 mines for 12 probes.

The thing about these builds, though, was that Protoss could defend them perfectly well from a wide range of reasonable macro openings, and there was always the option for some kind of blink attack or quick colossus push, but adept-prism and the pylon cannon forces Terran to play a certain specific build and only that build. Terrans are also constricted through the midgame; currently, every TvP seems to end with a marine-tank push that hits Protoss a little before their fourth base is fully functional. It's possible that the adept nerf will lead to more build diversity for Terrans and thus more diverse play in the midgame, but it's also possible that may not even get close to fixing the problem. It might be balanced, but if the midgame doesn't change then DK needs to work a little harder.
Taeja the one true Byunjwa~
ProtossMasterRace
Profile Joined January 2016
57 Posts
January 24 2016 00:36 GMT
#25195
On January 24 2016 05:59 Empirimancer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2016 14:14 FrkFrJss wrote:
I mean...I guess we'll have to see after Code S begins, but there are currently 6 Protoss, 8 Terran, and 6 Zerg in Code S. PvT is 1-1, and there are 3 TvPs left. So far, herO, Myungsik, seed, and Trap have advanced. None of those are particularly no name.

I'm not denying the imbalance, but so far, the results PURELY in the GSL (which is what you point towards) really don't point to Terran and Zerg performing worse than Protoss.


But the Protoss have only lost to Zerg and other Protoss. The only exception is TY vs Patience, the best Terran in the world vs someone who probably shouldn't even be in Code A.




There has been literally only 1 other TvP match where toss won 3 - 1 against a terran that played absolutely atrociously. Any good terran can easily counter adepts by now. It is not a balance issue it is a learn to play issue. The overall winrate of TvP in code A is exactly 50%
CheddarToss
Profile Joined September 2015
534 Posts
January 24 2016 00:38 GMT
#25196
On January 24 2016 09:36 ProtossMasterRace wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 24 2016 05:59 Empirimancer wrote:
On January 22 2016 14:14 FrkFrJss wrote:
I mean...I guess we'll have to see after Code S begins, but there are currently 6 Protoss, 8 Terran, and 6 Zerg in Code S. PvT is 1-1, and there are 3 TvPs left. So far, herO, Myungsik, seed, and Trap have advanced. None of those are particularly no name.

I'm not denying the imbalance, but so far, the results PURELY in the GSL (which is what you point towards) really don't point to Terran and Zerg performing worse than Protoss.


But the Protoss have only lost to Zerg and other Protoss. The only exception is TY vs Patience, the best Terran in the world vs someone who probably shouldn't even be in Code A.




There has been literally only 1 other TvP match where toss won 3 - 1 against a terran that played absolutely atrociously. Any good terran can easily counter adepts by now. It is not a balance issue it is a learn to play issue. The overall winrate of TvP in code A is exactly 50%

Well, to be fair, it is also a design issue. PvT is a badly designed matchup.
ProtossMasterRace
Profile Joined January 2016
57 Posts
January 24 2016 00:39 GMT
#25197
On January 24 2016 08:00 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 24 2016 05:00 CheddarToss wrote:
Watching the uThermal vs PtitDrogo series I can't help but feeling the urge to throw up. Liberators are such an imbalanced unit, it's not even funny. Adepts are the definition of balance in comparison.

A unit/build that can be hard countered by going stargate is imbalanced? The build even requires Terran to sacrifice the economy (to an extent) to perform. This is in contrast to the "quick 3rd expansion behind adept-warp prism harass that usually kills the Terran."

It's actually quite hilarious, if you seen casts of the adept harass. "[Terran] really shut that harass down! Was all over his base and just seemed impenetrable! [Protoss] wasn't able to do any meaningful damage and lost his adepts! Meanwhile, [Protoss] took his 3rd and Terran finally feels confident enough to move out and take his."

There's no mention of "He really needed to do damage with that attack..." or "BUT AT WHAT COST?!" It basically boils down to "Protoss attack failed, now we can continue the game on equal footing."


Adepts get hard countered by anything that is not light, tanks marauders etc. So your point is?
ProtossMasterRace
Profile Joined January 2016
57 Posts
January 24 2016 00:42 GMT
#25198
On January 24 2016 09:38 CheddarToss wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 24 2016 09:36 ProtossMasterRace wrote:
On January 24 2016 05:59 Empirimancer wrote:
On January 22 2016 14:14 FrkFrJss wrote:
I mean...I guess we'll have to see after Code S begins, but there are currently 6 Protoss, 8 Terran, and 6 Zerg in Code S. PvT is 1-1, and there are 3 TvPs left. So far, herO, Myungsik, seed, and Trap have advanced. None of those are particularly no name.

I'm not denying the imbalance, but so far, the results PURELY in the GSL (which is what you point towards) really don't point to Terran and Zerg performing worse than Protoss.


But the Protoss have only lost to Zerg and other Protoss. The only exception is TY vs Patience, the best Terran in the world vs someone who probably shouldn't even be in Code A.




There has been literally only 1 other TvP match where toss won 3 - 1 against a terran that played absolutely atrociously. Any good terran can easily counter adepts by now. It is not a balance issue it is a learn to play issue. The overall winrate of TvP in code A is exactly 50%

Well, to be fair, it is also a design issue. PvT is a badly designed matchup.


That is absolutely true, I don't like the fact that the only way to win against terran is stupid adept all ins but mid and late game is so heavily terran favored because of liberators that there is no point of even trying to get there unless adepts already did insane amount of damage. The whole matchup is just retarded, if toss wins with 1A adepts or terran wins with shift clicking liberators. The same is true for PvZ with the exception that only zerg has easy ways of winning with ravagers mutas lurkers or just doing whatever they want while taking bases without risks.
Matte
Profile Joined January 2016
Sweden6 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-01-24 01:09:42
January 24 2016 01:08 GMT
#25199
On January 24 2016 08:47 CheddarToss wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 24 2016 08:00 aksfjh wrote:
On January 24 2016 05:00 CheddarToss wrote:
Watching the uThermal vs PtitDrogo series I can't help but feeling the urge to throw up. Liberators are such an imbalanced unit, it's not even funny. Adepts are the definition of balance in comparison.

A unit/build that can be hard countered by going stargate is imbalanced? The build even requires Terran to sacrifice the economy (to an extent) to perform. This is in contrast to the "quick 3rd expansion behind adept-warp prism harass that usually kills the Terran."

It's actually quite hilarious, if you seen casts of the adept harass. "[Terran] really shut that harass down! Was all over his base and just seemed impenetrable! [Protoss] wasn't able to do any meaningful damage and lost his adepts! Meanwhile, [Protoss] took his 3rd and Terran finally feels confident enough to move out and take his."

There's no mention of "He really needed to do damage with that attack..." or "BUT AT WHAT COST?!" It basically boils down to "Protoss attack failed, now we can continue the game on equal footing."

And how is that different from Liberator harass? It does a lot of damage every single time.


I feel like he lost more due to his pylon placement rather than liberator harass being OP. Having well placed pylons would never allow a liberator to kill more than 2 probes while adept harass will almost always get 2 scvs per adept at a minimum. You can also counter it by getting a single phenoix as well.

Now this is not to say that the liberator is not problematic. It is a no splash flying siege tank with AOE air attack and it will need to be adjusted for TvP to end in a good place.
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
January 24 2016 01:46 GMT
#25200
On January 24 2016 10:08 Matte wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 24 2016 08:47 CheddarToss wrote:
On January 24 2016 08:00 aksfjh wrote:
On January 24 2016 05:00 CheddarToss wrote:
Watching the uThermal vs PtitDrogo series I can't help but feeling the urge to throw up. Liberators are such an imbalanced unit, it's not even funny. Adepts are the definition of balance in comparison.

A unit/build that can be hard countered by going stargate is imbalanced? The build even requires Terran to sacrifice the economy (to an extent) to perform. This is in contrast to the "quick 3rd expansion behind adept-warp prism harass that usually kills the Terran."

It's actually quite hilarious, if you seen casts of the adept harass. "[Terran] really shut that harass down! Was all over his base and just seemed impenetrable! [Protoss] wasn't able to do any meaningful damage and lost his adepts! Meanwhile, [Protoss] took his 3rd and Terran finally feels confident enough to move out and take his."

There's no mention of "He really needed to do damage with that attack..." or "BUT AT WHAT COST?!" It basically boils down to "Protoss attack failed, now we can continue the game on equal footing."

And how is that different from Liberator harass? It does a lot of damage every single time.


I feel like he lost more due to his pylon placement rather than liberator harass being OP. Having well placed pylons would never allow a liberator to kill more than 2 probes while adept harass will almost always get 2 scvs per adept at a minimum. You can also counter it by getting a single phenoix as well.

Now this is not to say that the liberator is not problematic. It is a no splash flying siege tank with AOE air attack and it will need to be adjusted for TvP to end in a good place.

I disagree. I have yet to see a game where it is abused in such a way that thoughtful simcity/build orders wouldn't negate their usefulness in the early game. For the mid and late game, I've seen too many games where Protoss either refused to branch tech trees ("robo is good enough to end this game now") or didn't capitalize on an advantage early enough (usually taking expansions too slowly).

Theoretically, I can see how it can be powerful. Maybe we'll see it one day where a Terran will "showcase to DK" how broken it is, but I haven't seen anything ridiculous from it so far. Only comments like "Liberator harass doesn't require micro or anything" from the people that play the race that was notorious for a-moving death balls 4 months ago.
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