EPTZerg is supposed to be the reactive race. Lately they didn't have anything to react to because Terran was limited as fuck. God forbid they have to start working for their wins again and not roll over banelings and mutalisks on the same 3 CC into MMMM desperation builds.
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 1073
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
Zerg is supposed to be the reactive race. Lately they didn't have anything to react to because Terran was limited as fuck. God forbid they have to start working for their wins again and not roll over banelings and mutalisks on the same 3 CC into MMMM desperation builds. | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On August 22 2014 07:07 ZenithM wrote: Zerg is supposed to be the reactive race. Lately they didn't have anything to react to because Terran was limited as fuck. God forbid they have to start working for their wins again and not roll over banelings and mutalisks on the same 3 CC into MMMM desperation builds. any race is the reactive race when you 11/11 them LOL | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 22 2014 07:07 ZenithM wrote: Zerg is supposed to be the reactive race. Lately they didn't have anything to react to because Terran was limited as fuck. God forbid they have to start working for their wins again and not roll over banelings and mutalisks on the same 3 CC into MMMM desperation builds. Every race is supposed to be reactive. It's a strategy game. | ||
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r691175002
249 Posts
Players will always greed to the limit, its how you get an edge. If no cheese was viable, players would just get even greedier until a new cheese appears. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 22 2014 14:11 r691175002 wrote: Cheese will always exist. They could double rax build time and the only thing that would change is zergs would open 3hatch before pool and still get 2raxed. Players will always greed to the limit, its how you get an edge. If no cheese was viable, players would just get even greedier until a new cheese appears. nope, because then those zergs are all dead against a standard noncheese, macro reaper opening. | ||
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Svizcy
Slovenia300 Posts
Removing a unit from the game, because you have a hard time dealing with it? I seen both mentioned Swarm hosts and Immortals, because someone doesn't like to deal with them cause he is a mech player. Terrans have a lot of options, your tech tree comes from continous line and never breaks off, now that they removed separate upgrades for air, it is easy to mix in mech units into bio or other way arround. I really dont see whats the fuzz with Immortals here. It's a unit designed to kill armored stuff. It has no splash damage, and their shields are removed instantly if you use few marines or hellbats on it or bassicly any fast firing unit with small "per-shot" damage. Swarm hosts, same thing almost, why not use 1 raven so you can see them, and then you can move arround, engage from better possition etc. Again hellbats that are protecting your tank lines will deal with locusts, easpecially after you have blue flames. Plus there is a fact that if zerg has a lot of swarm hosts he given you the best thing he has as a zerg vs mech, thats his mobility to be everywhere on the map. Just drop him if he has to much swarm hosts, he literally cannot move arround the map and defend. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On August 22 2014 14:19 Big J wrote: nope, because then those zergs are all dead against a standard noncheese, macro reaper opening. I doubt a reaper opening when the barracks build time is doubled will affect a 3base zerg who has been unmolested for that long. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 22 2014 15:47 Thieving Magpie wrote: I doubt a reaper opening when the barracks build time is doubled will affect a 3base zerg who has been unmolested for that long. Zergs still wouldnt 3hatch with 10pool existing in that scenario. ;-) Na, my response was just aimed towards that second part which declares cheese as necissity for a stable meta. Which it just isnt. Say Zerg would develop a way to deal with 2rax - and only 2rax (something micro against Marines in low numbers). That wouldnt affect that you still open 15h with a 14-17pool. | ||
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ReMinD_
Croatia846 Posts
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Meavis
Netherlands1300 Posts
On August 22 2014 14:36 Svizcy wrote: I am stunned for how big changes some of ppl are suggesting. Removing a unit from the game, because you have a hard time dealing with it? I seen both mentioned Swarm hosts and Immortals, because someone doesn't like to deal with them cause he is a mech player. both these units are just poorly designed, immortals have crazy stats for their cost with their only weaknesses being air(easy to compensate for) and production time(how the fuck can that be justified as weakness). then theres the swarmhosts which is free units all over again, but this time from halfway across the map. Terrans have a lot of options, your tech tree comes from continous line and never breaks off I would like to remind you of swarmhosts and immortals, which can just pick shit off and walk home. now that they removed separate upgrades for air, it is easy to mix in mech units into bio or other way arround. what I don't even I really dont see whats the fuzz with Immortals here. It's a unit designed to kill armored stuff. It has no splash damage, and their shields are removed instantly if you use few marines or hellbats on it or bassicly any fast firing unit with small "per-shot" damage. so you just throw in a couple immortals and completely disallow armoured units, which is almost half the terran arsenal, and that is supposed to be fine? marines and hellbats hardly remove the shield instantly, and even then an immortal is crazy effective. Swarm hosts, same thing almost, why not use 1 raven so you can see them, and then you can move arround, engage from better possition etc. or you could just scan... the whole problem lies in that you can't move around them, as their reach is half the map most of the time. Again hellbats that are protecting your tank lines will deal with locusts, easpecially after you have blue flames. and continuously form losses on your end while the zerg is running out of control Plus there is a fact that if zerg has a lot of swarm hosts he given you the best thing he has as a zerg vs mech, thats his mobility to be everywhere on the map. Just drop him if he has to much swarm hosts, he literally cannot move arround the map and defend. I would like to remind you this is why the swarmhost/muta style has been favoured for almost half a year against mech | ||
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Svizcy
Slovenia300 Posts
On August 22 2014 16:35 Meavis wrote: both these units are just poorly designed, immortals have crazy stats for their cost with their only weaknesses being air(easy to compensate for) and production time(how the fuck can that be justified as weakness). then theres the swarmhosts which is free units all over again, but this time from halfway across the map. I would like to remind you of swarmhosts and immortals, which can just pick shit off and walk home. what I don't even so you just throw in a couple immortals and completely disallow armoured units, which is almost half the terran arsenal, and that is supposed to be fine? marines and hellbats hardly remove the shield instantly, and even then an immortal is crazy effective. or you could just scan... the whole problem lies in that you can't move around them, as their reach is half the map most of the time. and continuously form losses on your end while the zerg is running out of control I would like to remind you this is why the swarmhost/muta style has been favoured for almost half a year against mech You could argue that reducing the range on swarmhost could be a potentially good change, not removing the unit. For immortal i just don't understand the point your trying to make, cause that unit is only strong at certain timings and only vs armored units. Ghosts, marines, even hellions deal with it's shields quite well. Not to mention that you can have few banshees with you when your going mech, who kill immortal ohhh so fast. I just can never agree to a pov, when someone is having trouble and doesn't want to adapt. | ||
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Meavis
Netherlands1300 Posts
On August 22 2014 17:02 Svizcy wrote: You could argue that reducing the range on swarmhost could be a potentially good change, not removing the unit. For immortal i just don't understand the point your trying to make, cause that unit is only strong at certain timings and only vs armored units. Ghosts, marines, even hellions deal with it's shields quite well. Not to mention that you can have few banshees with you when your going mech, who kill immortal ohhh so fast. I just can never agree to a pov, when someone is having trouble and doesn't want to adapt. I never agreed with the other guy about removing them though, I was more so debunking your claim that he was upset about these units because he was struggling with them. swarmhost range would be a welcome change in my book as that gives terran a bit less movement required to punish bad swarmhost play. again as I said, the shield of the immortal is hardly a problem, the problem is that even when it's shield is removed it is still a strong unit, upping its gas cost with like 50 and reducing its build time to make it more viable again would justify its stats better now (or maybe revert that 5>6 range change so immortals actually have to get close?) remember immortals are not just a problem against mech, but also key to the dreaded immortal sentry all-in, which seems to never stop being relevant. | ||
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Svizcy
Slovenia300 Posts
But terran has it's own strong timing pushes, especially the 2 base or 3 base bio-viking-medivac or 3 ghosts all in of 3 base is incredibly hard to stop. All iny are hard to stop when they hit at right timing, but not necesserily means that we need to nerf them or something about them. Mostly because nerfing one unit so that it wouldnt be so strong at certain timing could easily mean it will become very useless at normal play or at some other timing | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
Three possible reasons:
Basically, I think the reason cheese can be so effective - outside of specific race mechanics - is that resources are at such a premium in the early game to the point that being slightly less efficient in distributing them is a clear difference between victory and defeat. Meanwhile you have no scouting information and nothing to base your decisions on; you can't even send out a scouting drone, because the information comes at the terminal cost of a stunted economy. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On August 22 2014 16:00 Big J wrote: Zergs still wouldnt 3hatch with 10pool existing in that scenario. ;-) Na, my response was just aimed towards that second part which declares cheese as necissity for a stable meta. Which it just isnt. Say Zerg would develop a way to deal with 2rax - and only 2rax (something micro against Marines in low numbers). That wouldnt affect that you still open 15h with a 14-17pool. Cheese is relative though. In the world of 3hatch before pool, 2 base timings become the new cheese. The truth is that cheesy or unfair play is just whatever style feels like it cuts corners unfairly. And those cuts are simply relative to whatever is considered "normal." | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 22 2014 18:30 Thieving Magpie wrote: Cheese is relative though. In the world of 3hatch before pool, 2 base timings become the new cheese. The truth is that cheesy or unfair play is just whatever style feels like it cuts corners unfairly. And those cuts are simply relative to whatever is considered "normal." Cheese has something to do with unorthodox play and building on surprising your opponent. While the game develops and the economies grow, the opportunities for scouting and preparing become more convinient and the relative costs for sending scouts become marginal. Thats where such attacks (like 2bases against 3hatch) lose their cheesy character. They are still allin(ish). But that's what they are already in TvZ, no reason to invoke a 3hatch opening for that. | ||
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parkufarku
882 Posts
On August 21 2014 20:36 NarutO wrote: And in KeSPa qualifiers its still Zerg that have a dominating winrate over Terran. Now stop your QQ. Its always the same. A Zerg loses vs an amazing playing Terran that seems to be in shape and you come here crying. Flash did also beat CJ_herO, Classic, Pigbaby, EffOrt, SoulKey, Maru, Sorry, soO ,Dear , GuMiHo, Parting and more. Did it ever cross your mind that it could be a player being in amazing shape? Certainly not. As always explained - your observation and analasys is weak and wrong and I am not willing to spend the effort to explain it once more  ! Do you need to MorroW to come here again and point out you are wrong or what active progamer must join the Teamliquid balance thread for you to understand?Maybe a Zerg? Should I ask Solar to come here and explain why he lost to 11 / 11 with a pool first gas opening? http://aligulac.com/players/55-Flash/results/ This guy is so T biased its not even funny..Kespa qualifers? Kespa qualifers and ignore all other relevant tournaments | ||
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sibs
635 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On August 23 2014 06:09 sibs wrote: 5 of 7 first Ro16 picks were Zerg heh. And 3/5 Zergs were picked by Zerg. Your point? | ||
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sibs
635 Posts
On August 23 2014 06:16 TheDwf wrote: And 3/5 Zergs were picked by Zerg. Your point? People want to play against Zerg. Zerg's feel more confident vs other zerg's. | ||
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