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And in KeSPa qualifiers its still Zerg that have a dominating winrate over Terran. Now stop your QQ. Its always the same. A Zerg loses vs an amazing playing Terran that seems to be in shape and you come here crying.
Flash did also beat CJ_herO, Classic, Pigbaby, EffOrt, SoulKey, Maru, Sorry, soO ,Dear , GuMiHo, Parting and more. Did it ever cross your mind that it could be a player being in amazing shape? Certainly not. As always explained - your observation and analasys is weak and wrong and I am not willing to spend the effort to explain it once more  ! Do you need to MorroW to come here again and point out you are wrong or what active progamer must join the Teamliquid balance thread for you to understand?
Maybe a Zerg? Should I ask Solar to come here and explain why he lost to 11 / 11 with a pool first gas opening?
http://aligulac.com/players/55-Flash/results/
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On August 21 2014 20:26 LSN wrote:
Now it is still early enough after patch to sit still and observe how this is continuing to develop. But the concerns are there.
Remember: We are now in a state of balance, that last year caused having like 8-9 terrans on top of the blizzcon qualifiers board but now we have buffed tanks, buffed hellbats.
IMO a clear indication for lacking balance is that zergs mostly choose roach semi all-ins instead of macro muta/bling play. And in fact the most games where zergs win are these semi all-ins.
Where exactly have the tank and hellbats been buffed recently? The tank upgrade has been there for a long time now and tanks are not used much in TvZ, only to counter Roach/Hydra in which case it's the Zerg players decision to actually force tanks. The only buff hellbats got was the removal of the transformation upgrade.
These days Zerg has to find a way to play more creative. This is similar to the situation in which Terrans are in TvP, where Protoss sometimes camp on 3 base until they have 3-3 and a Templar/Colo army composition. If you don't play creative, you are at a big disadvantage in the later stages of the game.
Zerg players have to think out of the box. Use drops and nydus for example. Do multi harassement as Terrans does. Everything that distracts your opponent is a good thing. It is not that difficult.
Have you seen the games from Flash today? In both games where he won with proxy raxes his opponent made some mistakes, especially Solar losing although he had a pool first build and scouting information very early. In the other games Flash didn't even use the patched mines to win. He was just the better player with better decision making and army positioning.
Now it's the time to actually wait for adaptions of players.
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On August 21 2014 20:36 NarutO wrote:And in KeSPa qualifiers its still Zerg that have a dominating winrate over Terran. Now stop your QQ. Its always the same. A Zerg loses vs an amazing playing Terran that seems to be in shape and you come here crying. Flash did also beat CJ_herO, Classic, Pigbaby, EffOrt, SoulKey, Maru, Sorry, soO ,Dear , GuMiHo, Parting and more. Did it ever cross your mind that it could be a player being in amazing shape? Certainly not. As always explained - your observation and analasys is weak and wrong and I am not willing to spend the effort to explain it once more ! Do you need to MorroW to come here again and point out you are wrong or what active progamer must join the Teamliquid balance thread for you to understand? Maybe a Zerg? Should I ask Solar to come here and explain why he lost to 11 / 11 with a pool first gas opening? http://aligulac.com/players/55-Flash/results/
He might be in excellent shape. Still I have concerns about seemingly/recently unbeatable bunker rushes as mentioned in post one and as well about the fact that zergs choose roach/hydra semi all-ins. The actual winrates don't reflect the number of games that were won with roach/hydras. Roach/hydra will eventually get figured out by terrans (on some maps its probably gonna stay a kind of coinflip).
Not enough time has passed yet to make final conclusions, but this is what it looks like to me right now.
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On August 21 2014 20:26 LSN wrote:
Apart from this, it is very concerning for me, in terms of balance, that zergs seem to be not confident anymore to win vs terrans in normal macro games using muta/bling. And in fact they do barely win any games with muta/bling. Instead all-ins and semi all-ins in the likes of roaches, roach/hydra or roach/bane become more and more common and the way for zerg to win.
What I saw in TvZ series at top Korean level last week:
14/08, Pughcraft: Cure vs Solar: lings/banes/mutas (x2);
14/08, Redbull Qualifiers: YoDa vs ByuL: lings/banes/mutas (x2);
14/08, Redbull Qualifiers: YoDa vs Curious: lings/banes/mutas (x2);
14/08, Redbull Qualifiers: YoDa vs Solar: lings/banes/mutas (x2);
15/08, Redbull Qualifiers: Cure vs Rogue: lings/banes/mutas (x2); roaches/hydras (x1);
16/08, Acer vs yoeFW: Bogus vs Leenock: lings/banes/mutas (x2);
16/08, Redbull Qualifiers: Reality vs LosirA [only one game streamed]: lings/banes/mutas (x1);
16/08, Redbull Qualifiers: Reality vs Rogue: lings/banes/mutas (x2);
16/08, Redbull Qualifiers: Polt vs HyuN: 1/1 Speedroaches → lings/banes/mutas (x1); roaches/hydras (x1);
17/08, Redbull Qualifiers: Journey vs HyuN: 1/1 Speedroaches → lings/banes/mutas (x1); roaches/hydras (x1);
18/08, Kespa Cup Qualifiers: Flash vs EffOrt: lings/banes/mutas (x2);
18/08, Kespa Cup Qualifiers: Flash vs Soulkey [only two VODs]: low eco bane bust (x1); lings/banes/mutas (x1);
20/08, Code S: TY vs TRUE: lings/banes (x1); lings/banes/mutas (x1);
21/08, Code S: Flash vs Dark: roaches/hydras (x1);
21/08, Code S: Flash vs Solar: lings/banes/mutas (x1).
On those 28 games, lings/banes/mutas was used 22 times. Where is your "Zergs don't seem to be confident anymore to use lings/banes/mutas in normal macro games" argument?
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On August 21 2014 19:53 LSN wrote:
Freewins from proxy marine rushes in TvZ continue. I guess it is hardly defendable when terran executes it right (and not like the guys years ago in the vods from you dwf).
I can't remember a single hold against this in the recent history of sc2 progaming. IMO when a race needs to defend smth like this with workers this early, it can't be any good.
It's not like the reason behind this is that the other guy is committing to production facilities early on when you're doing absolutely nothing at all, trying to get away with that is about as bad as photon overcharge.
how hard is it to commit to a single drone scout so you can have an idea of his production capability's and match them?
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Why, actually, do zergs make so many mistakes dealing with proxy rushes? You'd think that any zerg pro worth his salt will have played hundreds of games learning to defend this rush, but in every game I watch it seems like they're indecisive, not sure what to do, constantly switching plans.
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We have 6 Zergs, 5 Protoss and 5 Terrans going forward in Code S- GSL seasson 3 right now from ro32 to ro16.
I think this speaks very firmly that balance vise this game is quite alright at this point. So big changes would be a mistake imho.
good day, svizcy
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I still can't believe how many zerg QQ about 2 rax. A single drone scout will stop this build in its tracks every time.
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On August 21 2014 21:45 Svizcy wrote:
We have 6 Zergs, 5 Protoss and 5 Terrans going forward in Code S- GSL seasson 3 right now from ro32 to ro16.
I think this speaks very firmly that balance vise this game is quite alright at this point. So big changes would be a mistake imho.
good day, svizcy
Really? 5 Protoss out of 19 advanced,5/7 Terrans and 6/9 Zergs...that's not balance
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On August 21 2014 22:04 Kuchikikun wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2014 21:45 Svizcy wrote:
We have 6 Zergs, 5 Protoss and 5 Terrans going forward in Code S- GSL seasson 3 right now from ro32 to ro16.
I think this speaks very firmly that balance vise this game is quite alright at this point. So big changes would be a mistake imho.
good day, svizcy Really? 5 Protoss out of 19 advanced,5/7 Terrans and 6/9 Zergs...that's not balance
Nope dude...that means there wasnt balance before and its evening out now. 
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That's so biased...50% advancement rate is balanced 25% is not,sorry
Even if you think that the game was unbalanced before you have to admit that most of the protoss (in every region) are struggling this season
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On August 21 2014 22:04 Kuchikikun wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2014 21:45 Svizcy wrote:
We have 6 Zergs, 5 Protoss and 5 Terrans going forward in Code S- GSL seasson 3 right now from ro32 to ro16.
I think this speaks very firmly that balance vise this game is quite alright at this point. So big changes would be a mistake imho.
good day, svizcy Really? 5 Protoss out of 19 advanced,5/7 Terrans and 6/9 Zergs...that's not balance
So balance is only fine when Protoss casting Time Warp on their own Nexus or failing 2-bases colo against unstimmed bio still reach RO16?
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On August 21 2014 22:15 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2014 22:04 Kuchikikun wrote:On August 21 2014 21:45 Svizcy wrote:
We have 6 Zergs, 5 Protoss and 5 Terrans going forward in Code S- GSL seasson 3 right now from ro32 to ro16.
I think this speaks very firmly that balance vise this game is quite alright at this point. So big changes would be a mistake imho.
good day, svizcy Really? 5 Protoss out of 19 advanced,5/7 Terrans and 6/9 Zergs...that's not balance So balance is only fine when Protoss casting Time Warp on their own Nexus or failing 2-bases colo against unstimmed bio still reach RO16?
Did I say that?Are you for real?
Saying that a 25% advancement rate is balanced is just a biased opinion...that's all I said so don't put words into my mouth
I never try to claim that the game was balanced before
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On August 21 2014 22:11 Kuchikikun wrote:
That's so biased...50% advancement rate is balanced 25% is not,sorry
Even if you think that the game was unbalanced before you have to admit that most of the protoss (in every region) are struggling this season
Oh rly? Which region exactly? GSL where all the top players from each race advanced including almost all of the top Ps with the exception of Classic, Stork and Dear who were in tough groups? Or EU where StarDust and San both advanced as well? Or AM where Oz and MacSed didnt get out of the group with Polt and JD and Alicia played poorly in his group while HuK, Pigbaby, Jim and HerO advanced? Really dont know what ure talking about...
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On August 21 2014 22:20 Kuchikikun wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2014 22:15 TheDwf wrote:On August 21 2014 22:04 Kuchikikun wrote:On August 21 2014 21:45 Svizcy wrote:
We have 6 Zergs, 5 Protoss and 5 Terrans going forward in Code S- GSL seasson 3 right now from ro32 to ro16.
I think this speaks very firmly that balance vise this game is quite alright at this point. So big changes would be a mistake imho.
good day, svizcy Really? 5 Protoss out of 19 advanced,5/7 Terrans and 6/9 Zergs...that's not balance So balance is only fine when Protoss casting Time Warp on their own Nexus or failing 2-bases colo against unstimmed bio still reach RO16? Did I say that?Are you for real? Saying that a 25% advancement rate is balanced is just a biased opinion...that's all I said so don't put words into my mouth I never try to claim that the game was balanced before
What you apparently don't understand is that there should not have been as many P as T + Z players combined in the first place, so the weaker Protoss players falling is expected if Protoss no longer dominates the scene.
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I don't think it's fair to say that the game is imbalanced because a lot of Protoss didn't advance to the ro16 in GSL. First of all, that's a very small sample size. You're not analyzing the quality of the games or the makeup of the groups at all to come to that conclusion.
Ask yourself who all the best players from each race are.. you'll find that with the exception of Classic most of them are there. Rain, sOs, Parting, Maru, Flash, Soo, Soulkey, etc.
To me if the best tournament in the world has all the best players from each race... that seems balanced.
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On August 21 2014 22:27 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2014 22:20 Kuchikikun wrote:On August 21 2014 22:15 TheDwf wrote:On August 21 2014 22:04 Kuchikikun wrote:On August 21 2014 21:45 Svizcy wrote:
We have 6 Zergs, 5 Protoss and 5 Terrans going forward in Code S- GSL seasson 3 right now from ro32 to ro16.
I think this speaks very firmly that balance vise this game is quite alright at this point. So big changes would be a mistake imho.
good day, svizcy Really? 5 Protoss out of 19 advanced,5/7 Terrans and 6/9 Zergs...that's not balance So balance is only fine when Protoss casting Time Warp on their own Nexus or failing 2-bases colo against unstimmed bio still reach RO16? Did I say that?Are you for real? Saying that a 25% advancement rate is balanced is just a biased opinion...that's all I said so don't put words into my mouth I never try to claim that the game was balanced before What you apparently don't understand is that there should not have been as many P as T + Z players combined in the first place, so the weaker Protoss players falling is expected if Protoss no longer dominates the scene.
This. When you look at all the P that dropped out, none of them are particularly amazing, nor are they better than the Z and T who advanced over them.
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On August 21 2014 22:20 Kuchikikun wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2014 22:15 TheDwf wrote:On August 21 2014 22:04 Kuchikikun wrote:On August 21 2014 21:45 Svizcy wrote:
We have 6 Zergs, 5 Protoss and 5 Terrans going forward in Code S- GSL seasson 3 right now from ro32 to ro16.
I think this speaks very firmly that balance vise this game is quite alright at this point. So big changes would be a mistake imho.
good day, svizcy Really? 5 Protoss out of 19 advanced,5/7 Terrans and 6/9 Zergs...that's not balance So balance is only fine when Protoss casting Time Warp on their own Nexus or failing 2-bases colo against unstimmed bio still reach RO16? Did I say that?Are you for real? Saying that a 25% advancement rate is balanced is just a biased opinion...that's all I said so don't put words into my mouth I never try to claim that the game was balanced before
Dude, the protosses that got eliminated are def not all code s level and were only benefiting from the first half of the year's ridiiculous balance issues. The top protosses were able to prove that they still belong. The others show their true colors as well.
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Well not enough time has passed yet. You cannot say 5-5-5 advance and this is why the game is balanced. We are coming from (and still are in) a state of terran under representation and therefore barely more terrans could have advanced yet than those who did.
Lets see how it develops further. In tournament wins anway terran was never behind. It was just representation on the level below tournament winners.
Anyway when all the 1 year+ terran whiners in this thread say the game is balanced, it obviously is terran favoured. :p
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I think the reason for seeing more zerg all-ins and semi all-ins is because of the new 2-2 roach hydra build coming into favor. It's such a strong push if not disrupted, but if the timing gets off it's dismantled. I think it might be why people are seeing more of these games. I think we're starting to see some more varied type of play occurring out of zergs because there are a couple of solid all-in threats.
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EPT
