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On August 14 2011 12:20 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 12:10 Moa wrote:
Calling people who disagree with you the vocal minority or trolls is just silly. How many applications do you have?
Having the resources of vVv behind someone who can't afford lans would be excellent, its too bad people in the academy won't have those resources? Actually that is the whole issue. It's pretty obvious there is a group of people trolling this thread. Exploitation for offering people the chance to be a member of an organization like vVv and potentially become sponsored? On what planet is that not trolling?
This planet, because for most people "trolling" has a very specific definition. Having a (what you consider) extreme opinion and deliberately being a dick to elicit strong reactions are two different things.
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On August 14 2011 12:31 pyaar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 12:20 SugarBear wrote:On August 14 2011 12:10 Moa wrote:
Calling people who disagree with you the vocal minority or trolls is just silly. How many applications do you have?
Having the resources of vVv behind someone who can't afford lans would be excellent, its too bad people in the academy won't have those resources? Actually that is the whole issue. It's pretty obvious there is a group of people trolling this thread. Exploitation for offering people the chance to be a member of an organization like vVv and potentially become sponsored? On what planet is that not trolling? This planet, because for most people "trolling" has a very specific definition. Having a (what you consider) extreme opinion and deliberately being a dick to elicit strong reactions are two different things.
No. I can accept that someone would prefer a model like complexity offers, but to go so far as calling it exploitation to give an opportunity to people is trolling.
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On August 14 2011 12:40 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 12:31 pyaar wrote:On August 14 2011 12:20 SugarBear wrote:On August 14 2011 12:10 Moa wrote:
Calling people who disagree with you the vocal minority or trolls is just silly. How many applications do you have?
Having the resources of vVv behind someone who can't afford lans would be excellent, its too bad people in the academy won't have those resources? Actually that is the whole issue. It's pretty obvious there is a group of people trolling this thread. Exploitation for offering people the chance to be a member of an organization like vVv and potentially become sponsored? On what planet is that not trolling? This planet, because for most people "trolling" has a very specific definition. Having a (what you consider) extreme opinion and deliberately being a dick to elicit strong reactions are two different things. No. I can accept that someone would prefer a model like complexity offers, but to go so far as calling it exploitation to give an opportunity to people is trolling.
I dont understand what the opportunity is here? Sure i guess some extra training with VVV academy but beyond that, there isnt really any, i mean you guys are saying that after a player attends some lans IF he places well he will get financial support from VVV, but if a player pays for himself to go to LANS just by himself and places well, he wouldnt need financial support fromm VVV he would be getting offers from any numerous amount of teams. It just seems like a sneaky way to secure a player with potential to a sub par team after he puts all the risks up (financially) himself.
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You guys are mistaken if you think TL is a terrible community, if anyone in this thread was trolling they would have been warned/banned.
Basically, what nearly everyone in this thread has been saying is that your supposed requirements regarding lans are unreasonable, and this is reflected in your lack of applicants.
The response to this has been telling us that we are stupid, not the best PR there.
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how do ppl expect these guys to go to major lans with no help? MLG is the only feasible one, and even then 1 MLG can cost up to $700-800 to attend.
The europe trips are not even worth considering. and the incentive is steelseries gear? are you joking. they could spend the money that they spent to attend major lans on their own gear and have hundreds left over.
no offense but this is not really worth anyones commitment. you can find our own practice partners elsewhere and do just fine.
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Regardless of whether or not the academy is exploitation the fact that so many people would honestly see it that way shows that there is something wrong with the way the academy is being implemented.
Would you consider changing the policy, it seems unnecessary that one would need to go to lans to show that they can play with the big boys. Would it be impossible for someone to get through the academy simply by out performing the current roster online?
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On August 14 2011 12:51 duk3 wrote:
You guys are mistaken if you think TL is a terrible community, if anyone in this thread was trolling they would have been warned/banned.
Basically, what nearly everyone in this thread has been saying is that your supposed requirements regarding lans are unreasonable, and this is reflected in your lack of applicants.
The response to this has been telling us that we are stupid, not the best PR there.
agreed , if anyone had really been trolling they would have been banned/ warned quite promptly
I should know (not a very clean TL record, im trying though!)
There is a clear difference between being criticial of something and trolling.
If you guys didnt want your academy to be subject to scrutiny you should have just posted it on your own website, not on a forum.
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On August 14 2011 12:40 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 12:31 pyaar wrote:On August 14 2011 12:20 SugarBear wrote:On August 14 2011 12:10 Moa wrote:
Calling people who disagree with you the vocal minority or trolls is just silly. How many applications do you have?
Having the resources of vVv behind someone who can't afford lans would be excellent, its too bad people in the academy won't have those resources? Actually that is the whole issue. It's pretty obvious there is a group of people trolling this thread. Exploitation for offering people the chance to be a member of an organization like vVv and potentially become sponsored? On what planet is that not trolling? This planet, because for most people "trolling" has a very specific definition. Having a (what you consider) extreme opinion and deliberately being a dick to elicit strong reactions are two different things. No. I can accept that someone would prefer a model like complexity offers, but to go so far as calling it exploitation to give an opportunity to people is trolling.
Honestly though, is there a single person that wouldnt prefer complexity's model. I dont think anyone would prefer to pay to go to their own lans by choice.
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On August 14 2011 12:51 duk3 wrote:
You guys are mistaken if you think TL is a terrible community, if anyone in this thread was trolling they would have been warned/banned.
Basically, what nearly everyone in this thread has been saying is that your supposed requirements regarding lans are unreasonable, and this is reflected in your lack of applicants.
The response to this has been telling us that we are stupid, not the best PR there.
I NEVER said TL is a terrible community. I did say the trolls outnumber the quality posters, but that is a far different statement. Please stop trying to derail the thread with these types of poorly thought-out comments.
The response has not been telling you that you are stupid. I feel that I have addressed as well as possible the attendance requirement. It's an OPTION to drop you if you have low attendance. By no means is it a guarantee that you spend thousands of dollars traveling around the world to every major LAN, nor is it a rejection of an application for someone who might need a little help making it to an event.
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SugarBear, the OP implies that if you do not (or cannot) attend major LAN events (and Sweep implied it again later) you will be dropped from the Academy (not even the team). If that's not true, then maybe you should tell Sweep to edit his post. If it is true, you're requiring a huge financial commitment that's going to be unacceptable for a lot of people, even the ones who would have otherwise been completely dedicated.
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On August 14 2011 12:56 Moa wrote:
Regardless of whether or not the academy is exploitation the fact that so many people would honestly see it that way shows that there is something wrong with the way the academy is being implemented.
Would you consider changing the policy, it seems unnecessary that one would need to go to lans to show that they can play with the big boys. Would it be impossible for someone to get through the academy simply by out performing the current roster online?
Given the highly negative feedback it's possible we might end up changing the policy, however, as I said above it is only an OPTION and not a guarantee you will be dropped. Some redefinition of what it means to be active may need to be considered instead of just a blanket "don't miss two major events".
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On August 14 2011 09:56 vVvSweep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:17 rei wrote:
ok, let's think about this with logic,
1) vVv wants a good team a group of smart players, smart enough to get into GrandMasters, and have a chance in taking a game off the big names out there.
2) "vVv-gaming is a very large organization." meaning they are well financed.
3) people who are smart enough to get in to grand masters are smart enough to realize vVv is "a very large organization" and that would have no problem paying for their basic traveling expenses.
Therefore, 4) it makes no common senses for vVv to expect someone smart enough to get good at starcraft but not smart enough to realize their expenses can easily be paid by a sponsor that they represents.
5) vVv is good in nature, and will not take advantage of people in order to promote their logo.
6) base on premise 1,2,3,4,5, vVv will pay for the expenses of their recruits who puts in hard works and train together in order to get better together, because vVv is good in nature, and will not attempt to insult their recruits' intelligence by taking advantage of smart people who are smart enough to get into Grand master in order to promote their logo for free. 1) We are not expecting academy members to take games off "big names". 2) I will not discuss finances, but unless you have ever owned your own business it would be pointless to even try. 3) you are obviously not one of those people. You think that because company X sells $500,000 worth of product in a month that they are rich... Chances are they would be lucky to bring in $5,000 a month. Go ask Sundance how much profit hes pulling in after selling thousands and thousands of tickets to MLGs. (you don't need to, ill answer it, hes still in debt) 4) see 3 5) Thank you. Our logo is spread out enough, we don't need to try and use people for free advertising. 6) Did you really need 2,3,4,5,6 to say the same thing? If you are going to try and be rude and a smart ass I would highly encourage you to ask an adult about what it is like to own a business so you can come across a little more intelligent. As it stands you stated 5 times that you know nothing about business.
Pretty sure he called me immature and stupid in this post. But that might be just me, because i'm pretty stupid, and might not able to fully gasp vVv.Sweep's masterful illustration of his mastery in English.
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Maybe then the OP should be worded differently.
It seems like you guys are willing to provide gear and community financial assistance (like room sharing) for the most dedicated members of the academy. The opening post should reflect possible cost sharing between members.
It's an OPTION to drop you if you have low attendance.
How low are we talking about? I haven't seen any vVv members at Dreamhack or Assembly or WCG yet, so why is it being asked for of the academy members?
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You told rei that he should be more intelligent, that sounds like calling someone stupid.
Any community where trolls outnumber the good posters isn't a good community, fortunately, TL isn't one of those.
Maybe you should have worded the original post better to avoid all these unfortunate misunderstandings.
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So I looked up VVV on TLPD. Only 3 out of 15 members went to MLG Anaheim. None of them made it out of the open bracket, or even the playoff to get out of the open bracket. None of them has placed highly at any MLG/IEM/Dreamhack. Most of them have only placed top3 in maybe 1 or 2 Go42 cups in the past year. Or less.
Not sure why you have higher expectations for your Academy B team players. 100% of your A team doesn't meet those standards. (unless you consider dropping out in Round 4 of loser's bracket performing "well") The top30 of MLG Anaheim were players already on sponsered teams that do reimburse traveling costs.
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On August 14 2011 13:09 RoboBob wrote:
So I looked up VVV on TLPD. Only 3 out of 15 members went to MLG Anaheim. None of them made it out of the open bracket, or even the playoff to get out of the open bracket. None of them has placed highly at any MLG/IEM/Dreamhack. Most of them have only placed top3 in maybe 1 or 2 Go42 cups in the past year. Or less.
Not sure why you have higher expectations for your Academy B team players. 100% of your A team doesn't meet those standards. (unless you consider dropping out in Round 4 of loser's bracket performing "well") The top30 of MLG Anaheim were players already on sponsered teams that do reimburse traveling costs.
This was the point i was trying to make. If they are paying for members of their team to go to tournaments but have higher expectations of academy members but dont offer financial assistance then what the hell is the point.
If a player has to pay for his own travel costs anyways he may as well just go there himself and if he places well in MLG a more prestigious team will likely pick him up pretty quick, one that will likely pay your travel expenses at the drop of a hat.
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Clearly what vVv guy is missing is that if someone is good enough to crush it at MLG or these other live events they will already be sponsored by a real team who pays for their players.
If someone isn't at that level yet they will grind online until they are good enough to get a sponsor who will send them to those events.
If the player doesn't practice enough he will be wasting his money because he will lose and not gain the sponsorship, and if he has practiced enough he will be wasting his money because he could be sponsored by a team who pays his fees.
One last thought:
The people in this thread who say "if you don't think it is a good deal then don't apply, but stop criticizing" are kind of a joke. This is a public forum, in a forum someone posts something to the readership and those people give their thoughts on the matter. Some may apply, some may say it is great, and some may say they think it is stupid, but that is the point.
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On August 14 2011 13:05 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 12:56 Moa wrote:
Regardless of whether or not the academy is exploitation the fact that so many people would honestly see it that way shows that there is something wrong with the way the academy is being implemented.
Would you consider changing the policy, it seems unnecessary that one would need to go to lans to show that they can play with the big boys. Would it be impossible for someone to get through the academy simply by out performing the current roster online?
Given the highly negative feedback it's possible we might end up changing the policy, however, as I said above it is only an OPTION and not a guarantee you will be dropped. Some redefinition of what it means to be active may need to be considered instead of just a blanket "don't miss two major events".
It is good that you would show flexibility even though I am sure this thread is the culmination of a ton of planning.
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On August 14 2011 13:07 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:56 vVvSweep wrote:On August 14 2011 09:17 rei wrote:
ok, let's think about this with logic,
1) vVv wants a good team a group of smart players, smart enough to get into GrandMasters, and have a chance in taking a game off the big names out there.
2) "vVv-gaming is a very large organization." meaning they are well financed.
3) people who are smart enough to get in to grand masters are smart enough to realize vVv is "a very large organization" and that would have no problem paying for their basic traveling expenses.
Therefore, 4) it makes no common senses for vVv to expect someone smart enough to get good at starcraft but not smart enough to realize their expenses can easily be paid by a sponsor that they represents.
5) vVv is good in nature, and will not take advantage of people in order to promote their logo.
6) base on premise 1,2,3,4,5, vVv will pay for the expenses of their recruits who puts in hard works and train together in order to get better together, because vVv is good in nature, and will not attempt to insult their recruits' intelligence by taking advantage of smart people who are smart enough to get into Grand master in order to promote their logo for free. 1) We are not expecting academy members to take games off "big names". 2) I will not discuss finances, but unless you have ever owned your own business it would be pointless to even try. 3) you are obviously not one of those people. You think that because company X sells $500,000 worth of product in a month that they are rich... Chances are they would be lucky to bring in $5,000 a month. Go ask Sundance how much profit hes pulling in after selling thousands and thousands of tickets to MLGs. (you don't need to, ill answer it, hes still in debt) 4) see 3 5) Thank you. Our logo is spread out enough, we don't need to try and use people for free advertising. 6) Did you really need 2,3,4,5,6 to say the same thing? If you are going to try and be rude and a smart ass I would highly encourage you to ask an adult about what it is like to own a business so you can come across a little more intelligent. As it stands you stated 5 times that you know nothing about business. Pretty sure he called me immature and stupid in this post. But that might be just me, because i'm pretty stupid, and might not able to fully gasp vVv.Sweep's masterful illustration of his mastery in English.
I apologize on behalf of sweep for that. The trolls in this thread were getting to him and he must have mistaken your post as an attack on vVv.
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I think this is just shocking.
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EPT
