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On July 31 2011 14:35 Wren wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2011 14:13 UnknownReclaimer wrote:On July 31 2011 13:57 Chargelot wrote:On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote:
Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing! This is why we can't have nice things. Firstly, I'd like to say that I'm writing this as a fan of yours. I'm probably your biggest fan, and you're going to have to deal with that for the rest of your E-Sports career. ♥ We all want E-Sports to be a successful, booming industry that blows the world away. I think we all forget sometimes that E-Sports is a business. There is no reason for anyone -- including Sundance -- to spend their time and money on something that will not be profitable. Facts: - E-Sports isn't about video games or the players.
- Hospitals aren't about helping people.
- Weapons development companies aren't about securing the nation.
- Oil isn't about getting people from point A to point B.
Businesses, of all types, are about making money. Sundance gave us his goal. Told us what his business plan was. He was... transparent. Like we claim we would like to see others be when it comes to these things. 100,000 subscriptions sounds like a lot. But how many people watch the MLG events in a year? How many more will watch now that the GSL Exchange Program is in place? He wasn't saying " Give us $3,000,000 and we'll make the prize pool higher!" He was saying " I need to know E-Sports is a valid industry, and StarCraft 2 is a valid medium for E-Sports, before we move ahead with our support of it." This same type of goal has most likely been set by the GSL, NASL, and other organizations that offer subscription based services. But they haven't been made public. Also, we haven't been told (I believe) how many subscriptions they have sold. For all we know, we could be half way there, and the membership option hasn't even been around very long. At the end of the day, if you want E-Sports to be a successful industry, it will need to be a profitable one. To mock this, is to mock E-Sports itself. Is his goal of 100,000 people unreasonably high? I suppose we'd need to see MLG's full financial documentation to know. But if E-Sports doesn't have 100,000 consumers that are willing to pay, it will never be successful. Imagine any other industry that appealed to less than 100,000 people. It would fail in a week.
Support E-Sports.
Buy a GOMTV.net subscription.
Buy a NASL Season 2 subscription.
Buy an MLG Gold Pass.Sundance Fighting iNcontroL Fighting MLG Fighting E-Sports Fighting It's things like this that make you one of my favorite posters on here Chargelot. On a side note, I will probably be buying a pass after this MLG. Mostly because I'm curious about how far we are already, and because I haven't gotten next weeks paycheck yet...lol. I've yet to buy a GOMTV pass, but I have for NASL. I'm not normally awake at 4 in the morning so I don't normally get to see the games lol. You should definitely get the GOM, precisely because you aren't awake at 4am. The VOD system they have is phenomenal.
Guess I'll have to check it out. I love Tastosis lol. But not sure how much I'll even get to watch if I get the pass. With watching NASL, the daily, SotG, Inside The Game, Kings of Tin, and trying to train so that one day I can be in an MLG I'm not sure if I'll have time to watch lol. But it'd be worth it just to hear Dad say "poopfeast420" one more time lol.
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To all the people who keep saying things like "the prize pool is shameful!", remember that you also like things like: great quality streams, the best casters available (e.g., flying tastosis from Korea!), nice venues with pretty lighting, booths, stable internet in the value, high production values with flawless sound and screen transitions, a well-run tournament, etc.
The reason MLG can afford to have a smaller prize pool is because, at least for the previous event and the current event, they do everything else so well that players and fans will show up to watch regardless.
MLG is, by far, the best chance for American eSports and SC2 right now. NASL doesn't even come close in terms of sponsorship dollars, venture capital, and organization. But, without the ability to monetize, it isn't going to last.
If you like what you get out of MLG, $30 for a year is virtually nothing. I paid up! =)
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On July 31 2011 14:42 UnknownReclaimer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2011 14:35 Wren wrote:On July 31 2011 14:13 UnknownReclaimer wrote:On July 31 2011 13:57 Chargelot wrote:On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote:
Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing! This is why we can't have nice things. Firstly, I'd like to say that I'm writing this as a fan of yours. I'm probably your biggest fan, and you're going to have to deal with that for the rest of your E-Sports career. ♥ We all want E-Sports to be a successful, booming industry that blows the world away. I think we all forget sometimes that E-Sports is a business. There is no reason for anyone -- including Sundance -- to spend their time and money on something that will not be profitable. Facts: - E-Sports isn't about video games or the players.
- Hospitals aren't about helping people.
- Weapons development companies aren't about securing the nation.
- Oil isn't about getting people from point A to point B.
Businesses, of all types, are about making money. Sundance gave us his goal. Told us what his business plan was. He was... transparent. Like we claim we would like to see others be when it comes to these things. 100,000 subscriptions sounds like a lot. But how many people watch the MLG events in a year? How many more will watch now that the GSL Exchange Program is in place? He wasn't saying " Give us $3,000,000 and we'll make the prize pool higher!" He was saying " I need to know E-Sports is a valid industry, and StarCraft 2 is a valid medium for E-Sports, before we move ahead with our support of it." This same type of goal has most likely been set by the GSL, NASL, and other organizations that offer subscription based services. But they haven't been made public. Also, we haven't been told (I believe) how many subscriptions they have sold. For all we know, we could be half way there, and the membership option hasn't even been around very long. At the end of the day, if you want E-Sports to be a successful industry, it will need to be a profitable one. To mock this, is to mock E-Sports itself. Is his goal of 100,000 people unreasonably high? I suppose we'd need to see MLG's full financial documentation to know. But if E-Sports doesn't have 100,000 consumers that are willing to pay, it will never be successful. Imagine any other industry that appealed to less than 100,000 people. It would fail in a week.
Support E-Sports.
Buy a GOMTV.net subscription.
Buy a NASL Season 2 subscription.
Buy an MLG Gold Pass.Sundance Fighting iNcontroL Fighting MLG Fighting E-Sports Fighting It's things like this that make you one of my favorite posters on here Chargelot. On a side note, I will probably be buying a pass after this MLG. Mostly because I'm curious about how far we are already, and because I haven't gotten next weeks paycheck yet...lol. I've yet to buy a GOMTV pass, but I have for NASL. I'm not normally awake at 4 in the morning so I don't normally get to see the games lol. You should definitely get the GOM, precisely because you aren't awake at 4am. The VOD system they have is phenomenal. Guess I'll have to check it out. I love Tastosis lol. But not sure how much I'll even get to watch if I get the pass. With watching NASL, the daily, SotG, Inside The Game, Kings of Tin, and trying to train so that one day I can be in an MLG I'm not sure if I'll have time to watch lol. But it'd be worth it just to hear Dad say "poopfeast420" one more time lol.
Well, quality is higher than NASL, so... 
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On July 31 2011 13:57 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote:
Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing! This is why we can't have nice things. Firstly, I'd like to say that I'm writing this as a fan of yours. I'm probably your biggest fan, and you're going to have to deal with that for the rest of your E-Sports career. ♥ We all want E-Sports to be a successful, booming industry that blows the world away. I think we all forget sometimes that E-Sports is a business. There is no reason for anyone -- including Sundance -- to spend their time and money on something that will not be profitable. Facts: - E-Sports isn't about video games or the players.
- Hospitals aren't about helping people.
- Weapons development companies aren't about securing the nation.
- Oil isn't about getting people from point A to point B.
Businesses, of all types, are about making money. Sundance gave us his goal. Told us what his business plan was. He was... transparent. Like we claim we would like to see others be when it comes to these things. 100,000 subscriptions sounds like a lot. But how many people watch the MLG events in a year? How many more will watch now that the GSL Exchange Program is in place? He wasn't saying " Give us $3,000,000 and we'll make the prize pool higher!" He was saying " I need to know E-Sports is a valid industry, and StarCraft 2 is a valid medium for E-Sports, before we move ahead with our support of it." This same type of goal has most likely been set by the GSL, NASL, and other organizations that offer subscription based services. But they haven't been made public. Also, we haven't been told (I believe) how many subscriptions they have sold. For all we know, we could be half way there, and the membership option hasn't even been around very long. At the end of the day, if you want E-Sports to be a successful industry, it will need to be a profitable one. To mock this, is to mock E-Sports itself. Is his goal of 100,000 people unreasonably high? I suppose we'd need to see MLG's full financial documentation to know. But if E-Sports doesn't have 100,000 consumers that are willing to pay, it will never be successful. Imagine any other industry that appealed to less than 100,000 people. It would fail in a week.
Support E-Sports.
Buy a GOMTV.net subscription.
Buy a NASL Season 2 subscription.
Buy an MLG Gold Pass.Sundance Fighting iNcontroL Fighting MLG Fighting E-Sports Fighting
I'd like to echo this post and add my own thoughts. MLG has done almost everything they can to improve the spectator experience. Complaints about stream downtime and subpar experiences have been met with the sincerest and humbling apologies. Every iteration of an MLG event since SC2 was added has had a large number of serious technical difficulties, and every next event has seen sweeping changes to address those issues. Sundance has time and time again put his ass on the line to bring us viewers a tremendously awesome experience.
To contrast, NASL gives us half-hearted blogs about "how they learned their lessons," then proceed to complain about viewers demanding too much. They hide behind their esport banner whenever criticism arises and blast the community as a whole when a small group of trolls shows up.
Overall, MLG is probably the most devoted out of all the tournaments to bringing SC2 to the fans.
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On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote:
Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing!
that's why he tweeted it, b/c it's not a big deal. duh!
but then it was made into a big deal, which i don't see why. he said if they make more money they'll spend more money...i don't see what's causing all this ridiculous commotion.
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People should realize that 100,000 subscriptions doesn't just mean the $3,000,000 in profit from us. It's also a major benchmark for the sponsors and advertisements. It means that investing in MLG and in turn MLG investing in SC2 is a prudent venture.
For the SC only purists, know that MLG has supported a lot of friggin games. Like Smash Bros, Gears of War and Rainbow Six. They've taken a decent number of risks in games that led nowhere. The only game to have stuck on the MLG scene is Halo, which is pretty much synonymous with MLG.
SC is their first true break out success since Halo. MLG has been one of the big organizations to promote E sports, and help make the scene what it is today. That may not sound like an important detail but realize that's the reason why we know that MLG is a tourney to keep our eyes on and not the random no name tourney you hear about through SCcasts or check if you're bored. They have name recognition due to their roots and people set aside time to tune into their events, which makes MLG one of the Meccas for pro competition. They're getting a boost from SC but MLG is definitely boosting pro SC's popularity as well.
SC is only 1 game out of 3 that MLG hosts but suffice to say they've done an amazing job with hosting the game, better than many dedicated SC2 tournaments.
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I'm sure someone smarter than me has made this point... and i'm only going to read the first 20 pgs so...
100,000 is probably a 'comfort' number of subscribers to pull in more investors/sponsors... I see how it can be perceived as begging for money or a ploy to get a bunch of cash... but there's no real reason to believe that's the case. He's making it pretty simple. The real issue is 'we need lots more subscribers' so he came up with the idea to give the community a solid number he's looking to reach. He could probably find ways to get that many subs w/o promising prize pool increases... just sayin.
Also, fuck incontrol. Act like a pro. Spend more time practicing so you don't bomb tournies. Pros, who are largely under the light, need to act like fuckin pros. FUCK
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Bosnia-Herzegovina114 Posts
On July 31 2011 08:27 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2011 07:27 greendestiny wrote: Haha, did anyone else notice the subtle undertones in this thread in the vein of "MLG is too big to fail!" and "We must bail it out with our subscriptions!"? I'm reminded of an article over on ArsTechnica, titled (I paraphrase) "Blocking our ads = stealing" where users were kindly asked if they could "Whitelist our site, because you see, we're having financial difficulties, we can't pay salaries to our staff, and besides, we tested blocking users who have ad blocking, it worked, and you don't want us to do it, now do you?" But what truly shocked me were elitistic responses from people who forced themselves to watch ads and tried to present it as something good: "Yeah, man I watch ads, I'm so cool, block the damn freeloaders". I think the same reply I gave there applies here: If your business (MLG in this case) is struggling financially and eventually does fail, it will be because whoever was in charge, made the wrong decisions, over and over again. It will have absolutely nothing with me, you or neighbor next door not paying to watch it. Read and re-read the previous parapgraph until it sinks in. It is not your fault MLG is not making enough profit. And then we have these kinds of posts in this thread: On July 29 2011 14:27 Charger wrote:
If the low quality is terrible as always, they should have no problems :p That's the only reason I paid at least. Dude, you're paying for a service in advance. That's a ripoff in and of itself. Do you have any common sense? Sundance just said they are struggling with subscriptions. Do you know why is that? Their free content sucks. I know because I watch it. Do you know what I get? Low & Medium quality streams with ads and ... That's about it? To me, that says "Pony up the cash or fuck off". How on earth is MLG supposed to become popular outside of hardcore SC2 players pool (which you apparently belong to, since you bought MLG pass) if their free content is crappy quality stream with a gray strip taking top 1/5 of the screen? I don't care that much about quality, as long as video isn't choppy and audio quality is decent, I think I can watch just about anything. In fact, I neither have the hardware nor bandwidth for High quality (720p on Youtube is unwatchable for me, 480p is ok). But for spoiled Westerner, if it isn't 1080p, he won't even bother with it (I'm aware you can see this as possible stereotype, but I think it's generally correct). Imagine some casual player, he never played SC2, but heard of it from his friends, thinking to himself "Hey, MLG, let's see what this is about ... oh nice, free stream ... wtf quality" *closes tab* and never looks back. That's a potential subscriber lost for good. If I were able to make decisions related to MLG, I would make Low & Medium & High & Ultra quality streams available for free, and have premium content for paying subscribers (interviews with players, post-game analysis, mail notifications, VODs whatever). I would forgo short-term profit for long-term advertisement and word of mouth between people who never before played SC saying to one another "Man, they have Ultra quality stream for free, imagine what they have for paying subscribers" or "I have nothing else to do, but I'm gonna watch MLG even though I don't know what this SC is, just because it's free Ultra quality". But, but, but, greendestiny, you live in a fantasy land where money grows on trees. This isn't how businesses work This is how I would make it and may heavens fall. And I'm sure subscription base would explode. Unfortunately thats false. Anything good is built upon sweat tears and suffering. Thankfully during my lifetime i was able to witness it myself during the rise of Mixed Martial Arts. Well false is incorrect. You're right. but without people paying for subpar material, without sundance begging for money, there will be no near future in esports.
I wonder at what point in my post you went 180°: "You're wrong ... well, you're right" :-)
I just read Ghetto_Overlord's latest post and was struck by how similar his conclusions are to mine. It's a lengthy expose on how SC2 came to be what it is:
http://www.the-ghetto.org/content/the-creation-of-battle-net-2-0-part-one
Here's his conclusion:
If these companies cannot get more people to buy their games, then they will grope the wallets of existing customers and see if they can charge those customers more for the same product. And like all entertainment properties that don’t grow their consumer base, they will crash and burn.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina114 Posts
On July 31 2011 08:17 Sd9 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2011 07:27 greendestiny wrote: Haha, did anyone else notice the subtle undertones in this thread in the vein of "MLG is too big to fail!" and "We must bail it out with our subscriptions!"? I'm reminded of an article over on ArsTechnica, titled (I paraphrase) "Blocking our ads = stealing" where users were kindly asked if they could "Whitelist our site, because you see, we're having financial difficulties, we can't pay salaries to our staff, and besides, we tested blocking users who have ad blocking, it worked, and you don't want us to do it, now do you?" But what truly shocked me were elitistic responses from people who forced themselves to watch ads and tried to present it as something good: "Yeah, man I watch ads, I'm so cool, block the damn freeloaders". I think the same reply I gave there applies here: If your business (MLG in this case) is struggling financially and eventually does fail, it will be because whoever was in charge, made the wrong decisions, over and over again. It will have absolutely nothing with me, you or neighbor next door not paying to watch it. Read and re-read the previous parapgraph until it sinks in. It is not your fault MLG is not making enough profit. And then we have these kinds of posts in this thread: On July 29 2011 14:27 Charger wrote:
If the low quality is terrible as always, they should have no problems :p That's the only reason I paid at least. Dude, you're paying for a service in advance. That's a ripoff in and of itself. Do you have any common sense? Sundance just said they are struggling with subscriptions. Do you know why is that? Their free content sucks. I know because I watch it. Do you know what I get? Low & Medium quality streams with ads and ... That's about it? To me, that says "Pony up the cash or fuck off". How on earth is MLG supposed to become popular outside of hardcore SC2 players pool (which you apparently belong to, since you bought MLG pass) if their free content is crappy quality stream with a gray strip taking top 1/5 of the screen? I don't care that much about quality, as long as video isn't choppy and audio quality is decent, I think I can watch just about anything. In fact, I neither have the hardware nor bandwidth for High quality (720p on Youtube is unwatchable for me, 480p is ok). But for spoiled Westerner, if it isn't 1080p, he won't even bother with it (I'm aware you can see this as possible stereotype, but I think it's generally correct). Imagine some casual player, he never played SC2, but heard of it from his friends, thinking to himself "Hey, MLG, let's see what this is about ... oh nice, free stream ... wtf quality" *closes tab* and never looks back. That's a potential subscriber lost for good. If I were able to make decisions related to MLG, I would make Low & Medium & High & Ultra quality streams available for free, and have premium content for paying subscribers (interviews with players, post-game analysis, mail notifications, VODs whatever). I would forgo short-term profit for long-term advertisement and word of mouth between people who never before played SC saying to one another "Man, they have Ultra quality stream for free, imagine what they have for paying subscribers" or "I have nothing else to do, but I'm gonna watch MLG even though I don't know what this SC is, just because it's free Ultra quality". But, but, but, greendestiny, you live in a fantasy land where money grows on trees. This isn't how businesses work This is how I would make it and may heavens fall. And I'm sure subscription base would explode. I like you.
Hey, thanks. You know, it takes me a lot of manhours to provide you with the highest-quality posts, so could you please send me $30? It helps eSports grow :-)
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Bosnia-Herzegovina114 Posts
On July 31 2011 10:28 Teejing wrote:
I do not pay for esports so maybe my opinion does not weight as much, but i think people should consider to put their money elsewhere ( my tip would be homestorycup, because even though the host is goofy, the atmosphere is breathtakingly amazing....offtopic already....)
, because
1) there is so much stuff around the games. MLG pays so much for everything...salaries, fees etc. that i would not be suprised if only >5% end up in the prizepool. Does not look efficient to me
2) MLG is not only Sc2 .... If you enjoy all their games halo, Coh and whatever game comes next then sure go support them, but i guess 90% on TL are only interested in sc2...
TL dr (< no idea what that means) :
sc2 is only 1 of 3 games in mlg and out of your money only >5% ( i guessed out of the blue) goes to the players.
Is it the toureys or players we want to support?
TL;DR stands for 'Too Long; Didn't Read' and is meant as a summary for people with short attention spans.
For example:
<1000 word post>
TL;DR
You are wrong.
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If NASL came out with statements about how they need however many subscribers for them to get a certain amount of production quality Sundance would have come out and called them out on it too. Don't fall for his sob story, he is just being defensive.
The right way to ask for community support:
GSL- Tasteless telling you to get on twitter.
The mediocre way to get community support:
Nasl- Over-hyping and disappointing and then pleading for some spectator patience.
The wrong way to get community support:
MLG- After record breaking viewership at events, tell everyone you will refuse to raise prize pools unless 100,000 people give you $30 each.
Sorry MLG staff but this isn't Halo where you're the only dog on the block. The production, competition, prize pool, and accessibility are all major factors on the legitimacy of a Starcraft 2 tournament. All the major tournaments seem to be lacking at least one of those things, and you guys are lucky, because prize pool has the most obvious fix.
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i actually would pay for mlg, gsl and nasl if i could download the vods...
i know i know i´m a data pack rat... but still, it just seems awful that you actually pay for something you don´t "get".
just my 2cents.
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So many people expect stuff for free these days...for those of us who are adults and with jobs, this is like asking for nothing. $30 for a year of MLG? It costs $30 for my wife and I to got to a 3D movie.
The real question is how many adults with jobs are eSports fans? How many kids who believe entertainment should be free are going to be willing to pay for a ticket?
Also, all publicity is good publicity, so without this thread, I never would have known they were selling these passes...make them more prominent on the MLG home page please. (Actually, even looking for them, I haven't found where to buy).
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On July 31 2011 23:08 -way wrote:
i actually would pay for mlg, gsl and nasl if i could download the vods...
i know i know i´m a data pack rat... but still, it just seems awful that you actually pay for something you don´t "get".
just my 2cents.
The problem is VODs is now you have the content for free everywhere on the web, because people aren't honest.
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On July 31 2011 08:34 Slider954 wrote:
Its amazing how quickly you ready to leap to incontrols defense and completely rationalize his hypocritical behavior at every turn, yet you aren't a white knight??
and BTW now he's 0-4 courtesy of Cruncher.
I think the real issue is Incontrol is right and people are letting an\ perceived hypocrisy distract from that. I think post more articulate than mine have illustrated that the business practice of asking for money after record breaking streams to do what should have already happened is a little off.
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i bought it, great deal. it used to be 10 bucks per event, now it's 30 for a year + bonus stuff.
couldn't be more please to support MLG, a great organization for YEARS.
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This community is so easily spurred to hate by iNcontroL.
Does anyone remember when constantly begged the NASL viewership to buy a membership as well? Why was that suddenly forgotten? And even then, there was constant mediocrity and they blatantly ignored any and all issues brought to their attention by their fans.
MLG improves 10-fold and now provides the best tournament in NA. And when they include a goal for their viewer-base to increase subscriptions and investment potential, they are attacked? Pathetic, guys.
On July 31 2011 23:48 tooPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2011 08:34 Slider954 wrote:
Its amazing how quickly you ready to leap to incontrols defense and completely rationalize his hypocritical behavior at every turn, yet you aren't a white knight??
and BTW now he's 0-4 courtesy of Cruncher. I think the real issue is Incontrol is right and people are letting an\ perceived hypocrisy distract from that. I think post more articulate than mine have illustrated that the business practice of asking for money after record breaking streams to do what should have already happened is a little off.
It's not asking for donations, it's advertisement. For fuck's sake, do you people even understand how businesses work?
It IS hypocrisy. Textbook hypocrisy. And your white knighting is blinding you to that fact.
http://i.imgur.com/OUNUw.jpg
Honestly, it seems iNcontroL simply can't handle that MLG is succeeding where NASL failed miserably. Why else do you think he jumped ship? If it was to practice more... well, we can see how well that went for him.
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On July 29 2011 14:21 MisterFred wrote:No. No it is not. Yes, MLG needs to increase their prize pools to be considered a genuine major in the line up of SC2 tournaments. No, more memberships are not going to give them the desperately needed cash to do that. Prize pools are probably less than 1% of their budget. Miniscule. That tweet is the kind of cynical shit that makes me NOT want to throw money MLG's way. I'd buy a second NASL pass before I'd pay for their stream upgrade. Edit: what InControl said. I'll go further and address Sundance myself: dick move.
Quick math tells me they hand out 570,000 dollars in prizemoney this year. Actually a little more, but thats about it.
So apparently, MLG has a budget of at least 57 million dollars then.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina114 Posts
On July 31 2011 23:27 photomuse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2011 23:08 -way wrote:
i actually would pay for mlg, gsl and nasl if i could download the vods...
i know i know i´m a data pack rat... but still, it just seems awful that you actually pay for something you don´t "get".
just my 2cents. The problem is VODs is now you have the content for free everywhere on the web, because people aren't honest.
Do you think we should be charged for, say, knowing the scores?
"Hey, lets go to MLG site, I wanna know how that game went ..."
*click*
ACCESS DENIED!
PREMIUM MEMBERS AREA ONLY!
CLICK HERE TO FIND OUT MORE!
Why not?
And when you sign up for it, MLG offers ToS where you agree you will not disclose results to anyone.
I feel people expect BW success while having a product with such ridiculous limitations (no LAN, must fill a form for tournaments etc) and on top of that, MLG adding their own barriers.
Edit: Hardcore SC2 fans will forgive anything to MLG, just because they deliver the content, but for the casual player/viewer, which is the untapped market so far, delivery must be near-perfect and no cost should be spared in making the service as good as possible, before even asking for money.
TL;DR
MLG is turtling on one base, soon to be mined out, and complains about low income.
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the brackets are right under the stream, open to all... not sure what you're talking about.
MLG is not a new organization and has shown the ability to evolve as needed. it's not going to die anytime soon.
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EPT
