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On July 26 2011 11:57 Fall.182 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 11:54 Crisium wrote:
PuMa went from a clan to a team, what is the problem? TSL should have contracted him. I think EG went above and beyond courtesy by waiting for PuMa to talk to Mr. Lee before signing. By all rights, they could have signed him when they first talked. but TSL raised Puma for a year and a half. Puma decides to go to EG after one offer from 1 tourney. EG even knew that he was uncontracted and took advantage of this. Puma and TSL was contracted on faith, Puma was raised by TSL and Coach Lee and became what he is because of TSL and the coach. and EG took that and smashed that trust into pieces by bribing Puma.
If you go by that logic then eSTRO would be TSL and Sparkys would be EG. Souldn't eSTRO be lauded for their great work raising Puma back in Broodwar. /Liquipedia
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Weeks of negotiations, more hyperbole , just like the claim PuMa was with TSL for 18 months and not 10. This broke out barely after the NASL and they have since contacted Lee, AG said so in the original OP.
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On July 26 2011 09:05 CellTech wrote:Thanks for your side of the story. Although, I believe EG may have indirectly sparked kespa 2.0 Puma was really becoming the Ace of a team that didn't "yet" have enough sponsors to support him as well as EG. imo. This was EG looking at Puma and whispering to themselves "omg, no salary, no contract, he's awesome, let's get him". If EG *really* cared about having top tier players it wouldn't contradict itself with much of it's current roster. Puma hwaiting, and best of luck. Poll: Team EG0 was already a fan and still am (1969) 43% -1 fan (1818) 40% +1 fan (802) 17% 4589 total votes Your vote: Team EG (Vote): +1 fan
(Vote): -1 fan
(Vote): 0 was already a fan and still am
Poll is so unnecessary..
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On July 26 2011 11:52 Fanta_Rules wrote:That's a very cool and interesting story, bro. (1)Of course you were going to arrange a meeting with Mr. Lee! I'm sure you didn't just make this up after reading all the reactions from the community, because that'd be nothing like you. I also agree with you - (2)this whole shitstorm is totally Mr. Lee's fault for lying to the press about what actually happened. I admire you for apologizing to that scum bag regardless of his disrespectful and deceitful behaviour. You are truly a wonderful person and someone to look up to. (3)I appreciate the fact that you repeat yourself a lot in this remarkable story of yours. If you hadn't, we idiots here at TL might have missed the fact that EG did nothing wrong and that TSL is to blame for blowing this thing out of proportions.  Talking to PuMa was only the *first step* in this whole ordeal, after all. (4)I'm sure you wouldn't have went along with signing PuMa if Mr. Lee wasn't okay with it. Now, thanks to you, (5)we know that he actually was okay with it, and can conclude that his statements to the press was simply to get attention. How silly of him! God bless you, Alex, and god bless EG.
(1) Conspiracy theories are worth reading.
(2) Taking something completely reasonable and trying to make it what it was not is not the correct way to go about responding to this PR.
(3) Repeating himself so often because there are many misconceptions in regards to what had actually happened. He also clearly said that EG shares blame in what happened. TSL is to blame for blowing this thing out of proportions.
(4) Are you suggesting that, if PuMa wanted to go to EG but Mr. Lee said no, PuMa did not have the right to change teams? Is Mr. Lee in charge of his life?
(5) This was never fucking said. Why the hell do you continue to try to spin this PR into something it is most clearly was not?
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eg might be able to provide puma with financial support, it's just a shame that that's it. eg's players suck and puma's practice will suffer for it.
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On July 26 2011 11:46 sandyph wrote:6 days on and still dont get it TSL - Puma 'contract' is not on writing but based on common trust for each other where TSL will support Puma and Puma will do the best that he can to carry TSL flag in competitions. TSL have fullfill their end of the contract for 1 1/2 years while Puma have only have NASL to show for all of the trust and support that TSL give to him then suddenly EG come in all gun blazing and keep pointing out that Puma doesnt have a written contract disregarding what TSL have done for Puma for the last 1 1/2 years
He doesn't get it? You don't even know what a contract is -.-'
Puma was not under contract. Period. TSL even said that they regret not having him under contract.
And EG wasn't blazing any guns. And Puma and EG were mutually interested in one another, and it's going to work out for both of them. And that's great, because EG can offer Puma things that TSL clearly couldn't.
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I don't think you guys did anything wrong with the Puma situation and I pretty much disagreed with almost every argument Milkis did bring up (I read up things on some Korean sites as well, so I assume I've read a lot of what Milkis read too), but the way you and djwheat acted on that "show" was atrocious and as someone that didn't really have much of an opinion on the three that participated in that conversation, I was left pretty livid at the end of it. I'll still watch games played by your players, but I refuse to watch or listen to anything that is hosted by djwheat or EG unless it absolutely cannot be helped.
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On July 26 2011 11:59 Swede wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 11:29 ZarMulix wrote:
We have the luxury of having a "sport" in which we decide what is acceptable or not. I think it would be deplorable to deny players rights in order to serve the interests of a team or corporation. Why would you want to mimic a system in which players have limited rights and abilities because of the legal implications instilled by large companies protecting their assets and stock value?
This is a really important point I think. People keep bringing up the way things are done in other professional sports, but the entire argument is based on the assumption that other professional sports are doing it right. I'm not saying anything about the correctness of how other sports approach the situation, only that that argument which everyone here is using is flawed. Personally I think a lot of the EG hatred going on here just comes from the classic 'support the underdog mentality'. Just because there's a kid at school who's big and rich doesn't automatically mean he's an asshole/bully. I can't say that it was wise of EG to wait so long before making a statement, but people seem to be ignoring the fact that time taken to make a statement is not directly related to truthfulness. They're not lying because they took too long to make a statement, and they're not lying because they're big and rich... If they are lying it's because the things they've said aren't true, but not a single person in this thread has pointed out anything incorrect about EG's statement here.
Thank you to both of the quoted posters. I think that these comments are really important if we want to think about this issue from an encapsulating standpoint.
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Here is one thing I do not quite understand:
Many people in this thread talk about the whole thing being rather a cultural rather than a legal issue. To be honest I do not know much about businessdeals in the Korean sc2 scene but it is claimed here that players in, for example TSL are bound by ... "honor", "loyalty" (my apologies for the lack of a better word here) rather than contracts, and that Team EG should have contacted Mr. Lee before negotiating a contract with PuMa himself.
I'm quite sure, PuMa was well aware of those cultural differences between Korea and "the west", yet he decided to accept (or at least strongly considered accepting) Team EG's offer and to talk to Mr. Lee, whom he felt a personal connection with, by himself.
That leaves the impression (imho) that PuMa was not all too loyal towards TSL (which is fine) or at least did not feel bound by this loyalty ( or honor, or whatever).
Finally, if PuMa himself did not feel bound to TSL, why would Team EG talk to TSL officials before making an offer to PuMa?
I'm sorry if I'm missing the point here, but all the talk about cultural differences is, in my opinion, rendered useless by the fact that PuMa (obviously being a member of the culture in question and probably knowing it by heart) did not feel bound to TSL in any way when making his decision - but then why should Team EG?
Correct me if I'm wrong, and apologies for my English, not my mothertongue 
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Makes sense to me.
I'm frankly surprised that even after all that, AND having the consideration to have a tl;dr section --holy crap, that's a smart move btw when posting major news on an internet forum, a simple thing but genius IMO-- that people still have mostly voted -1 fan. I think EG handled the situation very well, albeit perhaps a bit slowly, but I realize too that reacting too fast could have made the situation even worse due to mistranslations.
Also, what is the Milkis bit about? I never heard what happened with him.
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On July 26 2011 12:10 nozh wrote:
eg might be able to provide puma with financial support, it's just a shame that that's it. eg's players suck and puma's practice will suffer for it.
Someone else didn't read the OP? I'm so surprised!
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Still can't get past the fact that this boils down to allowing a 19 year old in a foreign country, immersed in a foreign culture, playing in what is quite possibly biggest event of his life, to negotiate a team switch with what is essentially the largest E-Sports organization in the US, all by himself.
I'm happy for Puma's success and I hope he continues to do well, but I certainly hope people learn to have a little more tact in their business negotiations.
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I don't get all this bullshit pro-team and organization mentality. Fuck TSL. Fuck teams. We, as fans of ESPORTS, should always be 100% player advocates. They're the ones working their asses off trying to make a living by playing the games we love and entertaining us while they're at it. I want players to get the best deals, money, and support they can possibly get. Who cares if a coach who wasn't paying him is mad that he left. I don't. I'm just happy Puma is going to make money now, and that he can go to foreign tournaments, and it doesn't matter to me one bit if the deal is from EG or TL or fnatic. Players first. Always.
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hehe unimportant how things went in reality (its pretty normal that things leak and creat meaningless drama because the persons get the info before the others even have a chance to talk, thanks to the internet and the bored people having to scream out every info everywhere hehe), i guess the mission good relationship to korea failed though for eg, atleast for a few weeks until people will have forgotten about that.
Lets see how things goes, my guess is that puma will drop a bit, hope it won't demotivate him.
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On July 26 2011 12:15 AzurewinD wrote:
Still can't get past the fact that this boils down to allowing a 19 year old in a foreign country, immersed in a foreign culture, playing in what is quite possibly biggest event of his life, to negotiate a team switch with what is essentially the largest E-Sports organization in the US, all by himself.
I'm happy for Puma's success and I hope he continues to do well, but I certainly hope people learn to have a little more tact in their business negotiations.
It would be nice if Puma and other players had agents that were unbiased partners to negotiate in their best interest, but they don't have that luxury.
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+1 fan that was originally pretty bemused at what looked like an underhanded move at first.
You are the Jerry West of SC2!
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I really don't understand the people saying that contacting TSL should be the VERY FIRST step. Maybe I'm just naive about team management, but wouldn't talking to the player to get a sense of whether they are even interested to begin with always be the first step, followed by talking to the team management?
/confused
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On July 26 2011 12:17 tripledoubles wrote:
+1 fan that was originally pretty bemused at what looked like an underhanded move at first.
You are the Jerry West of SC2!
LoL, hold your horses we aint seen a Kobe yet.
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On July 26 2011 12:16 FeyFey wrote:
hehe unimportant how things went in reality (its pretty normal that things leak and creat meaningless drama because the persons get the info before the others even have a chance to talk, thanks to the internet and the bored people having to scream out every info everywhere hehe), i guess the mission good relationship to korea failed though for eg, atleast for a few weeks until people will have forgotten about that.
Lets see how things goes, my guess is that puma will drop a bit, hope it won't demotivate him.
Korea's not gonna forget. All players will probably have contracts before leaving for foreign events now.
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EPT
