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If Puma asked to speak to his team first, that's good enough for me. Why would EG go over the top of the player if that was indeed his wish? IMO they didn't act inappropriately besides a minor oversight due to a different cultural mentality.
The bigger this game gets, the more money there is to be had, and the more cutthroat things will become. For better or worse, that's the way the world works. IMO Puma has every right to expect to be paid like a top class player, because he is. There's nothing wrong with wanting to make a comfortable living off SC2. If I'm TSL I'm making sure my players are being compensated appropriately, so the temptation isn't there. Lesson learned, I guess.
And I don't think Milkis deserved to be sorta accused of libel, but at the same time, Alex has a point. This is a major PR problem for EG and they didn't deserve it. It's going to cost them money, and that sucks.
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I never did understand what EG did wrong in the first place. Before going into specifics of the contract they told PuMa to go talk to his coach. Everyone talks about "Legitimizing eSports..." this is what goes on in NBA/NFL every season.
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On July 26 2011 11:41 Vei wrote:
Holy shit, so TSL / Coach Lee is straight up lying? That is _rotten_ and I need to hear his response.
What did they lie about?
On July 26 2011 11:42 GoKu` wrote:
I never did understand what EG did wrong in the first place. Before going into specifics of the contract they told PuMa to go talk to his coach. Everyone talks about "Legitimizing eSports..." this is what goes on in NBA/NFL every season.
And NBA/NFL have a multi-million worldwide audience and more money going around than it even makes sense to have.
When Starcraft - being a fledgling competitive game it is now - gets there, then sure I'll live with businessmen and sports agents and directors and managers.
Legitimizing and growing e-sports doesn't mean we have to take the worst part of professional sports and apply it right now - because it almost certainly won't grow too much if it develops into a predatory business environment.
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On July 26 2011 11:39 taLbuk wrote:
I'm so sick of reading people talking about how EG shouldn't be talking to contracted players in the first place, even Fnatics manager said it's common practice that teams talk to players near end of contract and casually hand them business cards etc etc. Stop saying "EG should have gone to management first before even talking to the player".
exactly. if someone is offering me a better job, i want to hear it. management can completley put u in the dark and control sht like KESPA
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On July 26 2011 11:36 bkrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 11:23 Thrax wrote:On July 26 2011 11:18 Zocat wrote:On July 26 2011 11:16 Micromnky wrote:On July 26 2011 11:04 Taf the Ghost wrote:On July 26 2011 10:52 Thrax wrote:On July 26 2011 10:49 Taf the Ghost wrote:On July 26 2011 10:34 Irave wrote:On July 26 2011 10:32 starcraft2rush wrote:Milkis took this up as a personal crusade to smear EG's reputation in front of the community because he got emotional about the evil American empire stealing away korean talent. Give me a damn break. Milkis should stay out of things he has admitted himself he has no clue about (global esports business dealings). EG did nothing wrong here. If you want to get butt-sore over an American team offering a better deal than a failing Korean team could offer him....then by all means state that as your case instead of masking it behind silly accusations of unethical business dealings. Otherwise suck it up and quit trolling haters.  That's a pretty bold claim to take against Milkis. This guy finds threads that have some relevance or importance to the scene and translates them. To consider this as a crusade to smear EG's reputation makes me think odd things about you. Or perhaps you just aren't very familiar with the scene at all. That discussion started getting off the rails when Milkis got way out of his depth, on the topics at hand. Alex was definitely on an "offensive" going into the discussion, but not directed at Milkis. His business, and his own personal ethics, were being drug through the mud by the anonymous SC2 crowds over effectively a minor miscommunication issue. Everyone responds not the greatest. His big screw up was bringing up the last point. It's not that he was wrong, he has a very legitimate point, but there wasn't any way for it to not come off badly, in that setting. It was an issue of forum & decorum. Truthfully, Milkis did okay, even if he really wasn't up to speed on the topics and wasn't up for matching Alex. Doesn't negate the screw up of bringing up the Journalism topic, but it is what it is. Alex will need to learn to have his Flame Shields on with community stuff. FXOBoSs has run into that problem as well. These guys just aren't used to it, lol. I'm curious to hear Alex's point of view on the journalism issue in more details later. Based on WoC, I probably agree with his general ideas on journalism, but I completely disagree that Milkis was at fault in any way. Milkis was out of his depth. That doesn't mean he was at "fault" for anything. The discussion just went to places he didn't have any ability to speak on. And, let's be clear, Milkis also flubbed a bunch of points on the KeSPA thing pretty badly (doesn't mean he did anything wrong, just that he didn't win that argument). He wasn't going much of anywhere with his thoughts on that. He's definitely not used to discussing topics like this on the fly, which is very definitely a skill set. On the journalism issue, that one is really easy. You could put information in a forum thread here, that gets highlighted, that's false and damaging to a Brand (which EG is). That's technically protected by the First Amendment (in the USA, which the main office of TL is out of, so it has that protection, along with the poster). But, it can still be slanderous or defamatory. This is a *huge* power dynamic issue that the company has little ability to deal with or respond to, before it gets out of hand. That *is* a serious issue and it *will* be a problem. It's more of a problem for Alex than the community, but talking about it with Milkis around was a bad choice of forum. There isn't any way it wouldn't come off as an attack, even if it really wasn't intended to be. This. Posting the article without giving EG a chance to respond first, is sloppy journalism. He translated an article. If EG wants to complain about sloppy journalism they should attack the playxp (?) writer. When TeamLiquid features the post as official news on the front page, I think TL somewhat needs to take responsibility for the post. That means making sure it's fair and accurate. If EG feels the need to attack someone, they should go after TL's policy on news, not Milkis. Milkis did tweet at SirScoots to get a comment, whether that's enough or not is debatable, but I think simply adding to the post "We attempted to contact EG but have not yet received a response" really can go a long way. It was posted in the SC2 section and was then moved to "Community News" - neither of which takes on ANY endorsement of Team Liquid itself; It was breaking news, posted on PlayXP, and then translated onto this website. Your suggestion is that TL staff audit every news post to ensure it is presented in the proper light that suits both parties, even if one party has not made their story/intentions clear; i don't know it just seems like going a bit far for something so irrelevant. If EG had a problem with the post, they could have replied, that is the entire point of a forum? To create discussion and prompt responses; the PR mess up falls on EG's shoulders, not Milkis', Team Liquid or anyone else. Bringing up this whole journalism argument and bringing Milkis into it is a nice distraction for EG, even if AG completely messed up on WoC
I suppose that yes, my point is that spotlighted/community news *should* be endorsed by Team Liquid itself. I felt that was already the case, but it seems it's not.
I totally agree with you on everything else though. EG handled this poorly, they should have simply replied to the thread instead of waiting X hours. They probably could have nipped it in the bud from the start with the right statement, but now they can never take back all the drama that surrounded this.
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I'm sorry to say this, but I don't see a reason for all this shbang...
TSL didn't even had a contract, come on!
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On July 26 2011 11:39 skp wrote:
Why would they talk to the manager first? EG has to know if Puma was even interested AT ALL.
EGAlex: Hi Mr. Lee, I would like to contract PuMa and invite him to our team!
Mr. Lee: No.
EGAlex: Okay =(.
then after they found out that Puma was interested then what? they should've contacted TSL, but did they? no. which is why this whole thing is coming out as shady and EG is at fault
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i dont understand the EG hate, EG did everything right. props to you guys, keep doing what youre doing : ) GL at anaheim, ill be cheering for your entire roster
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The problem for me is it's already been so long I don't really care about EGs side of the story. The story is for all purposes over, both living out its life and being superseded by more news.
Good luck next game.
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On July 26 2011 11:32 sc14s wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 11:25 Fall.182 wrote:On July 26 2011 11:12 starcraft2rush wrote:On July 26 2011 11:07 Shiori wrote:On July 26 2011 11:04 Taf the Ghost wrote:On July 26 2011 10:52 Thrax wrote:On July 26 2011 10:49 Taf the Ghost wrote:On July 26 2011 10:34 Irave wrote:On July 26 2011 10:32 starcraft2rush wrote:Milkis took this up as a personal crusade to smear EG's reputation in front of the community because he got emotional about the evil American empire stealing away korean talent. Give me a damn break. Milkis should stay out of things he has admitted himself he has no clue about (global esports business dealings). EG did nothing wrong here. If you want to get butt-sore over an American team offering a better deal than a failing Korean team could offer him....then by all means state that as your case instead of masking it behind silly accusations of unethical business dealings. Otherwise suck it up and quit trolling haters. That's a pretty bold claim to take against Milkis. This guy finds threads that have some relevance or importance to the scene and translates them. To consider this as a crusade to smear EG's reputation makes me think odd things about you. Or perhaps you just aren't very familiar with the scene at all. That discussion started getting off the rails when Milkis got way out of his depth, on the topics at hand. Alex was definitely on an "offensive" going into the discussion, but not directed at Milkis. His business, and his own personal ethics, were being drug through the mud by the anonymous SC2 crowds over effectively a minor miscommunication issue. Everyone responds not the greatest. His big screw up was bringing up the last point. It's not that he was wrong, he has a very legitimate point, but there wasn't any way for it to not come off badly, in that setting. It was an issue of forum & decorum. Truthfully, Milkis did okay, even if he really wasn't up to speed on the topics and wasn't up for matching Alex. Doesn't negate the screw up of bringing up the Journalism topic, but it is what it is. Alex will need to learn to have his Flame Shields on with community stuff. FXOBoSs has run into that problem as well. These guys just aren't used to it, lol. I'm curious to hear Alex's point of view on the journalism issue in more details later. Based on WoC, I probably agree with his general ideas on journalism, but I completely disagree that Milkis was at fault in any way. Milkis was out of his depth. That doesn't mean he was at "fault" for anything. The discussion just went to places he didn't have any ability to speak on. And, let's be clear, Milkis also flubbed a bunch of points on the KeSPA thing pretty badly (doesn't mean he did anything wrong, just that he didn't win that argument). He wasn't going much of anywhere with his thoughts on that. He's definitely not used to discussing topics like this on the fly, which is very definitely a skill set. On the journalism issue, that one is really easy. You could put information in a forum thread here, that gets highlighted, that's false and damaging to a Brand (which EG is). That's technically protected by the First Amendment (in the USA, which the main office of TL is out of, so it has that protection, along with the poster). But, it can still be slanderous or defamatory. This is a *huge* power dynamic issue that the company has little ability to deal with or respond to, before it gets out of hand. That *is* a serious issue and it *will* be a problem. It's more of a problem for Alex than the community, but talking about it with Milkis around was a bad choice of forum. There isn't any way it wouldn't come off as an attack, even if it really wasn't intended to be. 1) Alex accused him of defaming 2) He did not defame 3) ergo Alex is a pompous idiot lol....you finished? lol you must be an EG fanboy. you must be really dense. this whole situation is EG's fault. i can't believe that you are trying to defend EG and alex. Puma was trained by Coach Lee for almost a year. THAT is why he is at the level he is now. EG should NOT have tried to bribe Puma(in a way) PRIOR to contacting COACH LEE BEFOREHAND because puma is on a team already and was raised by another coach.Tell me this. is it correct adopt a child from an orphanage just because the child isn't officially documented as living in the orphanage? No, of course you would contact the orphanage first. You can't blame Milkis either, all he did was translate for the community and Alex was extremely rude to him. Your earlier comment said that Milkis was trying to go on a personal crusade to hurt EG, i think its you who is going on a personal crusade to flame and hurt the community and milkis. I was actually pretty fond of EG before this event. and now i refuse to think of EG of anything other than a backstabbing shady organization. Good job alex. so tired of emo little kids who think bussiness has ethics, if you want to blame someone blame puma for going about it the wrong way.. but really there is nothing to blame here.. time to move on (im not actually blaming puma, im saying if there is any blame, which there isnt, it would rest on his shoulders for going about it out of the normal style)
Since business ethics don't matter much, why are there university courses based solely on the topic?
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On July 26 2011 11:43 Fall.182 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 11:39 skp wrote:
Why would they talk to the manager first? EG has to know if Puma was even interested AT ALL.
EGAlex: Hi Mr. Lee, I would like to contract PuMa and invite him to our team!
Mr. Lee: No.
EGAlex: Okay =(.
then after they found out that Puma was interested then what? they should've contacted TSL, but did they? no. which is why this whole thing is coming out as shady and EG is at fault
if puma was interested he would just quit the team unless he was under a contract but he wasn't, was he?
puma has every right to be interested and informed. Players should have rights too.
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PuMa was not signed to a contract with TSL;
6 days on and still dont get it
TSL - Puma 'contract' is not on writing but based on common trust for each other
where TSL will support Puma and Puma will do the best that he can to carry TSL flag in competitions.
TSL have fullfill their end of the contract for 1 1/2 years while Puma have only have NASL to show for all of the trust and support that TSL give to him
then suddenly EG come in all gun blazing and keep pointing out that Puma doesnt have a written contract disregarding what TSL have done for Puma for the last 1 1/2 years
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To be honest, I didn't have a problem with the way the recruitment process for PuMa was handled. The bigger issue to me was that EG basically said nothing after the news was leaked, and then Alex lashes out at Milkis for being biased when there was NO response on EG's behalf for so long.
Since EG has racked up a number of shady activities, it also makes it more difficult to believe the sequence of events laid out in this thread are completely accurate.
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Just curious, and I know this won't happen now that PuMa is on EG, but what does PuMa have to say about all of this?
All I hear is management talk a bunch of PR shit, and I personally don't feel like any damage has been mitigated.
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On July 26 2011 11:35 TheSubtleArt wrote:
Lol remember the whole debate about Liquid playing in the EG masters cup? EG simply stated "Liquid was asked to participate and declined", and Tyler called them out on it, stating they misrepresented the situation and made no effort to present Liquid's side of the story. EG's response was that they shouldn't bear responsibility for presenting another side's argument, that was liquid's responsibility.
The situations were reversed now, and EG made a huge deal of it. Definitely speaks to the integrity of the organization.
Except that that was a statement of a straightforward fact, that Liquid was invited and decided not to participate. Sure it would have been nice if EG had presented more information, but it can just as easily be argued that it would be overstepping their bounds to presume to speak for another team.
This was a two-page long interview about how hurt and saddened the coach was by the fact that the evil western corporation had come along and lured his pure-hearted player to the dark side. When you're in such an obviously polarized discussion it's probably a good idea to see if the other side has anything to contribute.
Still, I don't think it's a duty of a translator to look for both sides, it's just polite. With this press release I think we now have the opinions of both sides. EG has a new player, PuMa gets a paycheck, the coach gets his public and personal apology, and we hopefully get some amazing terran games. Win/win/kind of win/win.
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EG rocks quit hating dawgies!
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Thanks a lot for the explanation.
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On July 26 2011 11:47 OldManSenex wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 11:35 TheSubtleArt wrote:
Lol remember the whole debate about Liquid playing in the EG masters cup? EG simply stated "Liquid was asked to participate and declined", and Tyler called them out on it, stating they misrepresented the situation and made no effort to present Liquid's side of the story. EG's response was that they shouldn't bear responsibility for presenting another side's argument, that was liquid's responsibility.
The situations were reversed now, and EG made a huge deal of it. Definitely speaks to the integrity of the organization. Except that that was a statement of a straightforward fact, that Liquid was invited and decided not to participate. Sure it would have been nice if EG had presented more information, but it can just as easily be argued that it would be overstepping their bounds to presume to speak for another team. This was a two-page long interview about how hurt and saddened the coach was by the fact that the evil western corporation had come along and lured his pure-hearted player to the dark side. When you're in such an obviously polarized discussion it's probably a good idea to see if the other side has anything to contribute. Still, I don't think it's a duty of a translator to look for both sides, it's just polite. With this press release I think we now have the opinions of both sides. EG has a new player, PuMa gets a paycheck, the coach gets his public and personal apology, and we hopefully get some amazing terran games. Win/win/kind of win/win.
EG didn't come out with a statement for several days. Milkis could not reasonably have given them that kind of time.
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Haters gonna hate. EGPuma fighting!
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Many teams have partnerships/signs up with Korean players and teams recently. Only EG's kr acquisition caused drama, says alot.
Publicly attacking Milkis was disgusting as well.
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EPT
