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On July 26 2011 10:55 Liudo wrote:
On July 26 2011 09:04 EGalex wrote:
EG first spoke with PuMa at NASL, prior to the round of 8 matches.... I want to make it very clear that we approached him... I simply let him know (via a translator) that EG was looking to support a Korean player, and asked him if he had any interest on a general level. In the weeks following NASL, PuMa and EG continued our discussion. As of last Wednesday, there was very serious mutual interest in having PuMa on EG; serious enough that he brought the issue up to Mr. Lee, the coach of TSL, as EG and PuMa had agreed would happen.
In the case of TSL, the only reason we did not speak with Mr. Lee first is that it was established between EG and PuMa, in our very first conversation, that - if he eventually decided he was interested in joining EG - he felt that the best first step (read: *first* step) to take would be for him to personally bring the issue to his coach.
Nice first step: weeks of secret conversations, "very serious mutual interest" established (read: a decision was reached that Puma would join EG), and not even then did EG speak with the TSL coach... but instead a 19 year old kid would be in charge of starting the negotiations with his coach? And all because of some translated agreement reached at the NASL weeks previously? How many steps is that really, before the "very first step"?
1) Fishing conversations at NASL.
2) A weird agreement made with a player not to discuss the prospects of leaving their team with their coach.
3) Weeks of secret talks.
4) Serious mutual interest established.
5) Potentially delicate negotiations between a 19 year old and a person in authority over him are entrusted at least initially to that 19 year old
Helluva first step. Each one of these "steps" seems questionable.
Very shady.
What the f*k is the point of going through the effort of talking to management before you are going to work out a deal?bout.
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If Milkis held off posting the entire article, including Mr. Lee's statement, that would have been severe bias towards EG.
He posted everything as it was available, which is how it is done without bias.
The fact that Alex thinks that despite Mr. Lee's statement should not be reported until he makes his statement and every journalist should sit around waiting on him like he is some kind of god is idiotic.
Alex didn't viciously attack Milkis for being bias against him, he attacked Milkis for not being biased in his favor.
This entire PR write-up was just that, an obviously fake, obviously retroactively saving face write-up. The apology to Milkis will be no different.
Were Alex in any real, respectable organization, he would be stepping down after absolutely botching this entire situation, and then following it up by attacking anyone who isn't biased in your favor.
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IF EG did snipe puma Lets say. WHo cares? He wasn't on a contract. ANd form what i read from TSL. There wasn't one planned for him! At this time. Puma Had to do the best for him! EG is a busniess. There job is to Branch to companys. WIn tourments. Get sponors Support there players. I think TSL was lucky they got contacted because there was NO direct need for it. With Puma not being on a contract. He repestions TSL but not contracted. EG. Thank you for giving your facts. I learned alot reading this message. I leanred more about team EG. and Hopefully Down the road i will be opening to you. because am Starting a busniess and it opens in two weeks.  Thank you. Have a nice day. KICK some butt EG!
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On July 26 2011 11:23 MCDayC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 11:18 Zocat wrote:On July 26 2011 11:16 Micromnky wrote:On July 26 2011 11:04 Taf the Ghost wrote:On July 26 2011 10:52 Thrax wrote:On July 26 2011 10:49 Taf the Ghost wrote:On July 26 2011 10:34 Irave wrote:On July 26 2011 10:32 starcraft2rush wrote:Milkis took this up as a personal crusade to smear EG's reputation in front of the community because he got emotional about the evil American empire stealing away korean talent. Give me a damn break. Milkis should stay out of things he has admitted himself he has no clue about (global esports business dealings). EG did nothing wrong here. If you want to get butt-sore over an American team offering a better deal than a failing Korean team could offer him....then by all means state that as your case instead of masking it behind silly accusations of unethical business dealings. Otherwise suck it up and quit trolling haters.  That's a pretty bold claim to take against Milkis. This guy finds threads that have some relevance or importance to the scene and translates them. To consider this as a crusade to smear EG's reputation makes me think odd things about you. Or perhaps you just aren't very familiar with the scene at all. That discussion started getting off the rails when Milkis got way out of his depth, on the topics at hand. Alex was definitely on an "offensive" going into the discussion, but not directed at Milkis. His business, and his own personal ethics, were being drug through the mud by the anonymous SC2 crowds over effectively a minor miscommunication issue. Everyone responds not the greatest. His big screw up was bringing up the last point. It's not that he was wrong, he has a very legitimate point, but there wasn't any way for it to not come off badly, in that setting. It was an issue of forum & decorum. Truthfully, Milkis did okay, even if he really wasn't up to speed on the topics and wasn't up for matching Alex. Doesn't negate the screw up of bringing up the Journalism topic, but it is what it is. Alex will need to learn to have his Flame Shields on with community stuff. FXOBoSs has run into that problem as well. These guys just aren't used to it, lol. I'm curious to hear Alex's point of view on the journalism issue in more details later. Based on WoC, I probably agree with his general ideas on journalism, but I completely disagree that Milkis was at fault in any way. Milkis was out of his depth. That doesn't mean he was at "fault" for anything. The discussion just went to places he didn't have any ability to speak on. And, let's be clear, Milkis also flubbed a bunch of points on the KeSPA thing pretty badly (doesn't mean he did anything wrong, just that he didn't win that argument). He wasn't going much of anywhere with his thoughts on that. He's definitely not used to discussing topics like this on the fly, which is very definitely a skill set. On the journalism issue, that one is really easy. You could put information in a forum thread here, that gets highlighted, that's false and damaging to a Brand (which EG is). That's technically protected by the First Amendment (in the USA, which the main office of TL is out of, so it has that protection, along with the poster). But, it can still be slanderous or defamatory. This is a *huge* power dynamic issue that the company has little ability to deal with or respond to, before it gets out of hand. That *is* a serious issue and it *will* be a problem. It's more of a problem for Alex than the community, but talking about it with Milkis around was a bad choice of forum. There isn't any way it wouldn't come off as an attack, even if it really wasn't intended to be. This. Posting the article without giving EG a chance to respond first, is sloppy journalism. He translated an article. If EG wants to complain about sloppy journalism they should attack the playxp (?) writer. Cept for the bit where he got a quote from the TSL coach, and gave no EG perspective. Not entirely a bad thing, but still only an article from 1 perspective. Now that EG has written up their (admittedly far too delayed) official statement, people are shitting on it, and some are accusing them of outright lies.
Lol remember the whole debate about Liquid playing in the EG masters cup? EG simply stated "Liquid was asked to participate and declined", and Tyler called them out on it, stating they misrepresented the situation and made no effort to present Liquid's side of the story. EG's response was that they shouldn't bear responsibility for presenting another side's argument, that was liquid's responsibility.
The situations were reversed now, and EG made a huge deal of it. Definitely speaks to the integrity of the organization.
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Australia8532 Posts
On July 26 2011 11:23 Thrax wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 11:18 Zocat wrote:On July 26 2011 11:16 Micromnky wrote:On July 26 2011 11:04 Taf the Ghost wrote:On July 26 2011 10:52 Thrax wrote:On July 26 2011 10:49 Taf the Ghost wrote:On July 26 2011 10:34 Irave wrote:On July 26 2011 10:32 starcraft2rush wrote:Milkis took this up as a personal crusade to smear EG's reputation in front of the community because he got emotional about the evil American empire stealing away korean talent. Give me a damn break. Milkis should stay out of things he has admitted himself he has no clue about (global esports business dealings). EG did nothing wrong here. If you want to get butt-sore over an American team offering a better deal than a failing Korean team could offer him....then by all means state that as your case instead of masking it behind silly accusations of unethical business dealings. Otherwise suck it up and quit trolling haters. That's a pretty bold claim to take against Milkis. This guy finds threads that have some relevance or importance to the scene and translates them. To consider this as a crusade to smear EG's reputation makes me think odd things about you. Or perhaps you just aren't very familiar with the scene at all. That discussion started getting off the rails when Milkis got way out of his depth, on the topics at hand. Alex was definitely on an "offensive" going into the discussion, but not directed at Milkis. His business, and his own personal ethics, were being drug through the mud by the anonymous SC2 crowds over effectively a minor miscommunication issue. Everyone responds not the greatest. His big screw up was bringing up the last point. It's not that he was wrong, he has a very legitimate point, but there wasn't any way for it to not come off badly, in that setting. It was an issue of forum & decorum. Truthfully, Milkis did okay, even if he really wasn't up to speed on the topics and wasn't up for matching Alex. Doesn't negate the screw up of bringing up the Journalism topic, but it is what it is. Alex will need to learn to have his Flame Shields on with community stuff. FXOBoSs has run into that problem as well. These guys just aren't used to it, lol. I'm curious to hear Alex's point of view on the journalism issue in more details later. Based on WoC, I probably agree with his general ideas on journalism, but I completely disagree that Milkis was at fault in any way. Milkis was out of his depth. That doesn't mean he was at "fault" for anything. The discussion just went to places he didn't have any ability to speak on. And, let's be clear, Milkis also flubbed a bunch of points on the KeSPA thing pretty badly (doesn't mean he did anything wrong, just that he didn't win that argument). He wasn't going much of anywhere with his thoughts on that. He's definitely not used to discussing topics like this on the fly, which is very definitely a skill set. On the journalism issue, that one is really easy. You could put information in a forum thread here, that gets highlighted, that's false and damaging to a Brand (which EG is). That's technically protected by the First Amendment (in the USA, which the main office of TL is out of, so it has that protection, along with the poster). But, it can still be slanderous or defamatory. This is a *huge* power dynamic issue that the company has little ability to deal with or respond to, before it gets out of hand. That *is* a serious issue and it *will* be a problem. It's more of a problem for Alex than the community, but talking about it with Milkis around was a bad choice of forum. There isn't any way it wouldn't come off as an attack, even if it really wasn't intended to be. This. Posting the article without giving EG a chance to respond first, is sloppy journalism. He translated an article. If EG wants to complain about sloppy journalism they should attack the playxp (?) writer. When TeamLiquid features the post as official news on the front page, I think TL somewhat needs to take responsibility for the post. That means making sure it's fair and accurate. If EG feels the need to attack someone, they should go after TL's policy on news, not Milkis. Milkis did tweet at SirScoots to get a comment, whether that's enough or not is debatable, but I think simply adding to the post "We attempted to contact EG but have not yet received a response" really can go a long way.
It was posted in the SC2 section and was then moved to "Community News" - neither of which takes on ANY endorsement of Team Liquid itself; It was breaking news, posted on PlayXP, and then translated onto this website. Your suggestion is that TL staff audit every news post to ensure it is presented in the proper light that suits both parties, even if one party has not made their story/intentions clear; i don't know it just seems like going a bit far for something so irrelevant. If EG had a problem with the post, they could have replied, that is the entire point of a forum? To create discussion and prompt responses; the PR mess up falls on EG's shoulders, not Milkis', Team Liquid or anyone else.
Bringing up this whole journalism argument and bringing Milkis into it is a nice distraction for EG, even if AG completely messed up on WoC
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So... where was the apology to Milkis?
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On July 26 2011 11:22 AlissyXOXO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 11:20 theDragoon wrote:On July 26 2011 10:59 AlissyXOXO wrote:
I have no idea what EG said about Milkis during that WoC cast or w/e, but I don't understand why so many people are defending him. He did things badly and it blew out of proportion in the western community because of the way he did it and obviously EG are gonna be pretty pissed, public image is everything when getting sponsors and they apparently didn't even know what was going on with Puma or whether they were going to talk to Coach Lee to negotiate things further.
First thing for good journalism is to get both sides of the story FIRST (seems like a recurring theme) before posting something that will reflect negatively on a gaming organization to keep relations between two organizations good, as Milkis is representing Team Liquid (he's a translator here after all). But he translated the article straight away, then demanded a response from SirScoots quite aggressively and rudely (at least in my opinion) over twitter, saying "We're waiting for your side of the story". Surely he could've waited 30 minutes more, given a rough translation to the article to SirScoots/EG and asked for his side of the story before publishing.
It was unprofessional, either way and he should be a big boy. He's representing a global gaming organization now, that is the face of SC2 for the western community. Maybe it's time some of the staff picked it up a notch and became a bit more professional lol, really? You want someone to post a translation of a published article after getting both sides of the story? Sure why not? Being delayed 1 hour to hear both sides of the story isn't going to magically put you behind of the scene. What harm does it do? (Hint: The answer is none) On the other hand, publishing it like this does do harm to some people
It was a published article that everyone can access, we can all use google translate to find out what it was about if we wanted to. The fact that it was already published means the translator isn't at fault for not including both sides of the story. My point is that Milkis isn't responsible for getting EG's side of the story for a translation.
Delayed an hour? Please, it took Alex a week to speak about it, WoC doesn't count because that would never have happened if it wasn't for the translation.
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On July 26 2011 11:35 TheSubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 11:23 MCDayC wrote:On July 26 2011 11:18 Zocat wrote:On July 26 2011 11:16 Micromnky wrote:On July 26 2011 11:04 Taf the Ghost wrote:On July 26 2011 10:52 Thrax wrote:On July 26 2011 10:49 Taf the Ghost wrote:On July 26 2011 10:34 Irave wrote:On July 26 2011 10:32 starcraft2rush wrote:Milkis took this up as a personal crusade to smear EG's reputation in front of the community because he got emotional about the evil American empire stealing away korean talent. Give me a damn break. Milkis should stay out of things he has admitted himself he has no clue about (global esports business dealings). EG did nothing wrong here. If you want to get butt-sore over an American team offering a better deal than a failing Korean team could offer him....then by all means state that as your case instead of masking it behind silly accusations of unethical business dealings. Otherwise suck it up and quit trolling haters. That's a pretty bold claim to take against Milkis. This guy finds threads that have some relevance or importance to the scene and translates them. To consider this as a crusade to smear EG's reputation makes me think odd things about you. Or perhaps you just aren't very familiar with the scene at all. That discussion started getting off the rails when Milkis got way out of his depth, on the topics at hand. Alex was definitely on an "offensive" going into the discussion, but not directed at Milkis. His business, and his own personal ethics, were being drug through the mud by the anonymous SC2 crowds over effectively a minor miscommunication issue. Everyone responds not the greatest. His big screw up was bringing up the last point. It's not that he was wrong, he has a very legitimate point, but there wasn't any way for it to not come off badly, in that setting. It was an issue of forum & decorum. Truthfully, Milkis did okay, even if he really wasn't up to speed on the topics and wasn't up for matching Alex. Doesn't negate the screw up of bringing up the Journalism topic, but it is what it is. Alex will need to learn to have his Flame Shields on with community stuff. FXOBoSs has run into that problem as well. These guys just aren't used to it, lol. I'm curious to hear Alex's point of view on the journalism issue in more details later. Based on WoC, I probably agree with his general ideas on journalism, but I completely disagree that Milkis was at fault in any way. Milkis was out of his depth. That doesn't mean he was at "fault" for anything. The discussion just went to places he didn't have any ability to speak on. And, let's be clear, Milkis also flubbed a bunch of points on the KeSPA thing pretty badly (doesn't mean he did anything wrong, just that he didn't win that argument). He wasn't going much of anywhere with his thoughts on that. He's definitely not used to discussing topics like this on the fly, which is very definitely a skill set. On the journalism issue, that one is really easy. You could put information in a forum thread here, that gets highlighted, that's false and damaging to a Brand (which EG is). That's technically protected by the First Amendment (in the USA, which the main office of TL is out of, so it has that protection, along with the poster). But, it can still be slanderous or defamatory. This is a *huge* power dynamic issue that the company has little ability to deal with or respond to, before it gets out of hand. That *is* a serious issue and it *will* be a problem. It's more of a problem for Alex than the community, but talking about it with Milkis around was a bad choice of forum. There isn't any way it wouldn't come off as an attack, even if it really wasn't intended to be. This. Posting the article without giving EG a chance to respond first, is sloppy journalism. He translated an article. If EG wants to complain about sloppy journalism they should attack the playxp (?) writer. Cept for the bit where he got a quote from the TSL coach, and gave no EG perspective. Not entirely a bad thing, but still only an article from 1 perspective. Now that EG has written up their (admittedly far too delayed) official statement, people are shitting on it, and some are accusing them of outright lies. Lol remember the whole debate about Liquid playing in the EG masters cup? EG simply stated "Liquid was asked to participate and declined", and Tyler called them out on it, stating they misrepresented the situation and made no effort to present Liquid's side of the story. EG's response was that they shouldn't bear responsibility for presenting another side's argument, that was liquid's responsibility. The situations were reversed now, and EG made a huge deal of it. Definitely speaks to the integrity of the organization.
you cant really take that example as a good reversal of the situation. There wasn't anything at stake like there is here like an organizations reputation that runs off of having a good reputation as opposed to something that didnt affect anything in the long run (TL refusing to go to eg master cup)
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The apology to milkis was on air and apparently in a PM. EGalex had an interesting point to make, but the way he approached to making it backfired because the timing and target were inappropriate.
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On July 26 2011 09:10 Hawker wrote:
This could of been avoided if you just would of said something on twitter right away when the news broke.
Could also have been avoided if the Mr. Lee and EG handled this correctly, which both sides failed at.
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Why would they talk to the manager first? EG has to know if Puma was even interested AT ALL.
EGAlex: Hi Mr. Lee, I would like to contract PuMa and invite him to our team!
Mr. Lee: No.
EGAlex: Okay =(.
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I'm so sick of reading people talking about how EG shouldn't be talking to contracted players in the first place, even Fnatics manager said it's common practice that teams talk to players near end of contract and casually hand them business cards etc etc. Stop saying "EG should have gone to management first before even talking to the player".
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the OP editted in that there will be seperate apology to milkis since this thread is about puma and TSL
u guys keep asking for no reason
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On July 26 2011 11:32 Thrax wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 11:26 Talin wrote:On July 26 2011 11:23 Thrax wrote:On July 26 2011 11:18 Zocat wrote:On July 26 2011 11:16 Micromnky wrote:On July 26 2011 11:04 Taf the Ghost wrote:On July 26 2011 10:52 Thrax wrote:On July 26 2011 10:49 Taf the Ghost wrote:On July 26 2011 10:34 Irave wrote:On July 26 2011 10:32 starcraft2rush wrote:Milkis took this up as a personal crusade to smear EG's reputation in front of the community because he got emotional about the evil American empire stealing away korean talent. Give me a damn break. Milkis should stay out of things he has admitted himself he has no clue about (global esports business dealings). EG did nothing wrong here. If you want to get butt-sore over an American team offering a better deal than a failing Korean team could offer him....then by all means state that as your case instead of masking it behind silly accusations of unethical business dealings. Otherwise suck it up and quit trolling haters. That's a pretty bold claim to take against Milkis. This guy finds threads that have some relevance or importance to the scene and translates them. To consider this as a crusade to smear EG's reputation makes me think odd things about you. Or perhaps you just aren't very familiar with the scene at all. That discussion started getting off the rails when Milkis got way out of his depth, on the topics at hand. Alex was definitely on an "offensive" going into the discussion, but not directed at Milkis. His business, and his own personal ethics, were being drug through the mud by the anonymous SC2 crowds over effectively a minor miscommunication issue. Everyone responds not the greatest. His big screw up was bringing up the last point. It's not that he was wrong, he has a very legitimate point, but there wasn't any way for it to not come off badly, in that setting. It was an issue of forum & decorum. Truthfully, Milkis did okay, even if he really wasn't up to speed on the topics and wasn't up for matching Alex. Doesn't negate the screw up of bringing up the Journalism topic, but it is what it is. Alex will need to learn to have his Flame Shields on with community stuff. FXOBoSs has run into that problem as well. These guys just aren't used to it, lol. I'm curious to hear Alex's point of view on the journalism issue in more details later. Based on WoC, I probably agree with his general ideas on journalism, but I completely disagree that Milkis was at fault in any way. Milkis was out of his depth. That doesn't mean he was at "fault" for anything. The discussion just went to places he didn't have any ability to speak on. And, let's be clear, Milkis also flubbed a bunch of points on the KeSPA thing pretty badly (doesn't mean he did anything wrong, just that he didn't win that argument). He wasn't going much of anywhere with his thoughts on that. He's definitely not used to discussing topics like this on the fly, which is very definitely a skill set. On the journalism issue, that one is really easy. You could put information in a forum thread here, that gets highlighted, that's false and damaging to a Brand (which EG is). That's technically protected by the First Amendment (in the USA, which the main office of TL is out of, so it has that protection, along with the poster). But, it can still be slanderous or defamatory. This is a *huge* power dynamic issue that the company has little ability to deal with or respond to, before it gets out of hand. That *is* a serious issue and it *will* be a problem. It's more of a problem for Alex than the community, but talking about it with Milkis around was a bad choice of forum. There isn't any way it wouldn't come off as an attack, even if it really wasn't intended to be. This. Posting the article without giving EG a chance to respond first, is sloppy journalism. He translated an article. If EG wants to complain about sloppy journalism they should attack the playxp (?) writer. When TeamLiquid features the post as official news on the front page, I think TL somewhat needs to take responsibility for the post. That means making sure it's fair and accurate. If EG feels the need to attack someone, they should go after TL's policy on news, not Milkis. But it was fair and accurate. It was spotlighted as a translation, it was (I believe) initially spotlighted as Lee's statement too. If you say it was fair and accurate because it was meant as a translation and as a statement by Coach Lee, and that's what it was - that's fine but then it's not news, it's just a TSL press release. The translation was accurate I'm sure, Milkis is an awesome translator and he cares a lot about translating the subtleties properly, but the original article was found to be wrong on specific points. (And of course, EG's side was not included at all)
Honestly, the amount of attention the issue would get even without being spotlighted as News would be just about the same. It's really a minor difference as far as consequences go.
TL spotlighted it because it's a hot ongoing issue, and an important one for the scene (as well for our relationship with the Korean scene). EG decided to give a written statement several days after Lee (with this thread), and this thread got spotlighted as well.
It's the same principle. Asking TL to do it differently would mean staff basically getting themselves involved in the issue, it's not TL's place to change the ordering of events and decide when to release somebody's statement. The way TL functions is quite simple - important and relevant information gets out - it gets translated and/or spotlighted so that people have access to it and can make up their own minds.
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I think it is unfair for people to immediately assume the worst of EG because of the "mega Corp" stigma associated with them. It's good to see that their view is still supported by a portion of the community! :D
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I never thought EG did anything wrong.
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Man you people need to grow some thicker skin if something like this upsets you so damn much. You're certainly going to hate where sc2 is growing to as well.
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Holy shit, so TSL / Coach Lee is straight up lying? That is _rotten_ and I need to hear his response.
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On July 26 2011 11:31 gosu86 wrote:
why is everyone so angry
really what is the best for puma and what makes him happy counts
u work a job and someone offers you a better job well if you like it you take it and if you dont than you dont simple
quit bashing eg
EG needs to be bashed because they are at fault in this case. Of course Puma is important, but are you going to let something big as this just pass by? EG not at fault at all? I smell EG fanboy
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Interesting choice to stir this back up after all this was almost over. In any case, while I said early on that I felt you were probably in the right based on the pure business of it, I'm discouraged by your treatment of Milkis and the extreme lateness of this statement. It almost seems like EG does subscribe to the notion that "any publicity is good publicity" and is just trying to prolong its time in the spotlight at this point.
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EPT
