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On July 27 2011 01:27 Gamegene wrote:So is Blizzard supposed to wait patiently for the next 10 years, trying to get enough games in to satisfy their needs in order to make a patch or map change? Yes, I understand your concern that "Blizzard is just catering to the noobs" or "Blizzard doesn't care about the community map choices" or even that this asshole on TL is attacking the fucking greatest map ever that is Tal'Darim, but at the very least Blizzard devs are also watching the GSL, NASL, DH all those tournaments, but they have to move slowly and deliberately because it affects the entire system and listening to professional input. And the point I'm trying to get at is that there's no point in assuming that Blizzard is doing everything completely wrong; we have to take the arguments against Blizzard's policy towards multiplayer to the at least half the level Blizzard is experimenting at to even have a good argument.
Well, I really don't think that Tal'Darim is the greatest map there is, but TD might be the only map in which counterattacking is really strong. I'm getting really depressed when I see all those great Progames with their awesome strategies just to realize, that I will never be able to see any of these on the ladder, as the blizzard maps only allow very, very few strategies.
I'm also not saying that blizzard is doing everything wrong, but I don't understand why they are so stubborn to not use tournament maps that have been tested again and again at the highest level of play and instead talk about wannabe pro balancing.
I do understand that the game would be screwed if you had to be as good as MC to play Protoss, or as good as NesTea to play Zerg and else the masterleague stats would be like 80:20. But they aren't. They are 60:40. For one map. (which blizzard leaves in the ladder pool)
So I don't see the point, why the map is such a problem in your eyes, especially considering that other maps go for "statistical overall balance", while some startpositions on them are just terribly imba. On Masterlevel and on Prolevel.
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On July 27 2011 01:31 n.DieJokes wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 01:14 Gamegene wrote:On July 27 2011 01:06 Big J wrote:
Well according to the thread in which blizzard gave the numbers for each matchup, they are taking there stats from MASTER LEAGUE. If this is the highest levels of play from your PoV, then I think you're right in your world, but in my world I really don't think that an average master league player has the slightest chance to win a Bo7 vs a GSL Code A player, played in the most imba MU in the most imba spots on the most imba map according to blizzards masterleague+ stats. If Blizzard takes only tournament games and GM games then there isn't enough data, which goes back to the aforementioned quotes. Not there's almost certainly enough data. 200 GM players per four servers all playing 100+ games is a very good sample size. Split by map and match-up they should still have more than enough games to gauge balance
Per map per matchup I'm not sure they would have enough numbers; (IMO) it seems feasible, but I think the addition of the Masters league (also considering that the MMR values mean there are some masters better than GM) makes the numbers more reliable; at the very least it shouldn't be worthless, because Masters league players aren't worthless.
COMPLETELY SUBJECTIVE.
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On July 27 2011 01:20 Bluerain wrote:
its funny how most of the time, teamliquid members voice the general consensus that blizzard does not know the first thing about balance and many times wrongfully interpret racial win stats which really cant even be used to gauge balance in the first time (which i agree with). But now a lot of the ppl here jus take for granted that meta and taldarim are 60% zerg biased at the "highest level of play" according to blizzard. do you even know what blizz means by that? does the map really feel imbalanced to u? seems like just a bunch of T/P players using it as an excuse for not being able to win on that map. i play Z and im really not that comfortable on the map. it should be pretty balanced especially since blizz added rocks to the third lol
Yep, with the 'feel good reasoning' that so many people practices today then even if the a map had almost perfect balance, say, 51%, all MUs, then some people would still blame their own shortcomings on it. Actually, 51% is just an extreme, people would just find some other more believable reason to blame it on, but the point is that people should thoughen up and stop whineing so much. There's other much more important elements invovled in playing a match than overall win-rates, anyways. But as in all things in life, emotions get the better of people, not intellect, sadly.
Edit: Even if I had a high lose rate on an actual imbalance map then I would still never blame my loses on it as a matter of principle because as long as I could still improve my play I wouldn't need to. It'd just be a challenge and in turn more satisfying when I'd win.
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On July 27 2011 01:39 Big J wrote:
Well, I really don't think that Tal'Darim is the greatest map there is, but TD might be the only map in which counterattacking is really strong. I'm getting really depressed when I see all those great Progames with their awesome strategies just to realize, that I will never be able to see any of these on the ladder, as the blizzard maps only allow very, very few strategies.
I'm also not saying that blizzard is doing everything wrong, but I don't understand why they are so stubborn to not use tournament maps that have been tested again and again at the highest level of play and instead talk about wannabe pro balancing.
I do understand that the game would be screwed if you had to be as good as MC to play Protoss, or as good as NesTea to play Zerg and else the masterleague stats would be like 80:20. But they aren't. They are 60:40. For one map. (which blizzard leaves in the ladder pool)
So I don't see the point, why the map is such a problem in your eyes, especially considering that other maps go for "statistical overall balance", while some startpositions on them are just terribly imba. On Masterlevel and on Prolevel.
Pretty much answered all that with previous posts:
It's just that we can't expect Blizzard to just put in every single community map out there, especially considering they're already having issues with balance on the first one they put in.
...
Anyways, I apologize. I phrased that wrong; it's more like there aren't enough good maps NOTABLE enough for Blizzard to actually pick them up. The community will always make incredible maps, but unless they get enough attention in tournaments they aren't even a possibility to the map devs.
"and Tal’darim Altar, has a heavy (60%+) bias toward zerg at the highest levels of play."
This argument is going in circles now.
I stop this cycle now.
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Do people realy send mails to blizzard and stuff? Or is everyone expecting that blizzard should read TL? Maybe they see battle.net as 'the community'. That would be bad, because the noob count is much higher there. Maybe we should talk about ideas how to communicate with blizzard instead of whining on our 'own' forum.
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On July 27 2011 01:34 Arcanefrost wrote:
Take gsl map pool and stop this madness blizzard...
Take the good GSL maps.
Turn them into a Geology class.
Still better than these maps.
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On July 27 2011 01:46 DoofUndance wrote:
Do people realy send mails to blizzard and stuff? Or is everyone expecting that blizzard should read TL? Maybe they see battle.net as 'the community'. That would be bad, because the noob count is much higher there. Maybe we should talk about ideas how to communicate with blizzard instead of whining on our 'own' forum.
Whining is whining on either forum, the crap that I say and that we all say really doesn't matter in the end, it's just bickering. Maybe TL whining is more valuable that battle.net whining, but again, doesn't matter.
They're already talking to pros, so I think that's already mission accomplished.
If we're going to make a message to Blizzard, it should be listen to pros MORE (and don't listen to IdrA).
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On July 26 2011 14:06 NExt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 14:03 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On July 26 2011 11:48 L3g3nd_ wrote:
^this is a very good point.
the new maps look like 2 base play, impossible to take a 3rd on some Honestly, how is it impossible at all to take a third? is it the distance? or what? Because the thirds are all close. its tough for because of the distance Abyssal Caverns, and its lower ground, as well as defending it opens a path to your nat and main. its just a mess altogether. its a good "looking" map, otherwise is not.. which is good for us two basing races but the other... sad times
Ok, sure, the third on that map is a little weird. But that's just one map. Anyways, if you're "close spawns" then you take the gold of course. If close air, you take the low ground. If cross, you could take either.
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Removed:
Scrap Station (2)
Slag Pits (4)
Delta Quadrant (4)
Metalopolis (4)
Ironically, playing vs. Zerg on Metalopolis is statistically my best matchup. Otherwise, good riddance.
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I can tell you right here that the scorching map is terrible for zerg. Not only is it so dark that I can barely see, but I had no idea where to put my ovies to scout. I'm using my vetoes for everything but the shipyard map, which might be okay.
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They take out Meta and leave Backwater and Typhon in?!?! WTF?!
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The natural in Searing Crater is a fucking deathtrap ZvT. :/
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These new maps just made me not want to ladder. The Antiya Shipyard is pretty good, but the others are bad in my opinion.
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No 3 player maps in the pool is killing esports.
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As terran I hate TVP on searing craters, I really have a hard time dealing with the amount of alleys there are for forcefields, I have to like rush to ghosts every time because I'm just getting forcefield contained every game.. its really annoying, sure TVZ might be a bit easier with the easy natural but I would think ZVP and TVP are nightmares.
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"I heard you like metalopolis, so here is a similar map but more macro oriented. I give you slag pits!!!
So you did not like slag pits huh? It is ok we will remove it and the stupid map that inspired it. Begone Metalopolis!!!!"
lolwut?!
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Metalopolis back, gultch gone please and thankyou. 
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RIP Metalopolis. Other removals are great!
Maybe TL whining is more valuable that battle.net whining, but again, doesn't matter. Hah, the whining and shit of TL is the best of the best from the official forums :p
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On July 27 2011 03:50 Thorakh wrote:RIP Metalopolis. Other removals are great! Show nested quote +Maybe TL whining is more valuable that battle.net whining, but again, doesn't matter. Hah, the whining and shit of TL is the best of the best from the official forums :p
Truly the cream of the crap :p
I must say, that I really like the set-up of where the third is for Antiga Shipyard, if only it didn't butt-up against the other main. The wide open area between it and the natural forms an interesting spot, and I think that positioning in that area will be pivotal in how games play out.
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EPT
