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On July 22 2011 16:49 jorge_the_awesome wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:09 PHC wrote:On July 22 2011 12:30 Invoker wrote:I like Koreans a lot. And I respect their culture and customs without holding any preconceived notions of how they should act. On July 22 2011 12:03 k!llua wrote:
Anything purporting to be "professional" cannot exist on a system of handshakes and verbal agreements.
But I also completely agree with this quote. This is what every employer should know. The biggest issue that needs to be addressed, which Milkis touched on, was that right now in 2011, is similar to what KeSPA did in the BW scene in 2003. They wanted to provide contracts for the players. But look where they are now - KeSPA has an iron-grip on the players & coaches to almost slave like conditions in their contracts and a free agency where the pro is stripped of his license if the deal falls through. When Koreans decided to form a player's association for SC2, it was huge precedence - they elected a member/player/coach to represent the players' own interests. It is well documented that SC2 is not thriving in a BW-dominated Korea (with teams like fOu struggling "to find their next meal" according to FXOBoSs), and the teams have a collected mentality that they will get the big sponsors in due time. If what Coach Lee has said is true, then what EG has essentially done is force the SC2 Players Association to have contracts (things the Korean SC2 proteams wanted to avoid due to KeSPA-like conditions) this early in the growth of the Korean SC2 scene. And if history repeats itself the Player's Association for SC2 will become KeSPA 2."Worst" case scenario is, which is relative depending on the viewpoint, is that the majority of Korean SC2 Pros get contracted by foreign teams. This could very well snowball into Korean SC2 Teams disappearing due to lack of players, which means less viewers for GSL, which means GSL/GSTL disappears due to lack of money/interest, which ultimately will lead to a nonexistent SC2 scene in Korea and Brood War lives on. Perhaps I am completely off on my assessment of the situation, but as a longtime Brood War fan that followed the Korean ESPORTS scene, am I being overly paranoid or is there at least some cause for concern for the dark path this is leading the Koreans? What is the point of the "license" system anyways? If a player is good enough to compete, he has to be a professionals, and if he's not good enough to compete, why do tournament organizers care? The license system is also part of the problem and would also not be good for sc2.
The license system that's in effect under KeSPA requires teams, players, coaches to pay THEM. It's a membership and one of the ways KeSPA gets $$. The winner of the grueling 128 man Courage tournament for BW awards amateurs a progaming license so they can get picked up by one of the professional teams.
I pray that the SC2 Player's Association won't be headed in that direction.
EDIT: I agree that the license system would be a problem for SC2, but it was also a way to weed out the pros and amateurs from being able to play regularly on broadcasted TV.
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On July 22 2011 17:50 Blitz Beat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 17:45 Obant wrote:
Very well written original post and a good read.
The part about Cricket in k!llua's original post was very intriguing; I think a big mistake people keep making is that we keep comparing eSports to professional sports organizations like the NHL or the NFL (USA examples). The US Major league sports contract players/teams and those players can play and compete only for that specific league. where as there iS no unified league system in SC2.
GOM and MLG are taking steps towards a unified, highly professional league in their region, but they don't contract and forbid players from other leagues/tournaments like Major league sports do. Doing so would kill the growth of our game in my eyes, and I'm sure theirs as well.
Since SC2 is largely a solo sport, other options on how to globally 'professionalize' the sc2 industry need to be looked into. I do not know much about cricket, but the model they have seems interesting. I'd like to take a look into how companies/teams in solo 'eXtreme' sports such as skateboarding or other leagues similar to cricket contact new prospects and handle contracts. Right now, there's more money outside of Korea. However, if Kespa ever comes into the equation and brings all their sponsors with them, there will most definately be more money in Korea. If Kespa demands that their players play exclusively for them, it will be done. Korean sc2 scene will be just fine. The biggest fear I have is that what EG does, and if other foreigner teams do in the future, offends the Korean people as a whole (coaches, teams, players, fans, netizens), the foreigners may actually push the Korean scene into accepting a Kespa or Kespa like organization from taking sc2. If such an event ever happens (and its becoming more likely as Blizzard and Kespa becomes more friendly) then you can kiss korean players playing outside of korea goodbye. sc2 outside of korea can't compete with the money of sc2 in korea.
Totally agree. Then the only foreigners you see playing SC2 competitively will be the ones at WCG. There's a ton of reason to be worried here folks.
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It's getting to the point where if Hot_Bid got possessed by Satan there would enough drama for the TL forums to become a soap opera.
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On July 22 2011 22:44 VGhost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 16:42 IslandLife wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 22 2011 15:15 Dayrlan wrote:(This will be somewhat long. Please choose to read it all before responding to any piece of it.) I think this article/post makes many excellent points, but it ignores one significant piece: The display of international business ethics (or in my opinion, lack thereof) from Evil Geniuses. Indeed, if you re-watch the recent Weapon of Choice episode and trace the conversation, it is easily to notice that the conversation originally was a debate over TSL Coach Lee Won Jae's anger at EG's behavior. The salient observation is that after Milkis (convincingly) made the point that EG's behavior was extremely rude and improper by Korean cultural standards, Mr. Garfield of EG changed the entire direction of the conversation towards his insinuation that Milkis was at fault for damaging EG. Indeed, as a previous poster points out, Mr. Garfield has significant experience and skill with PR compared to Milkis, and in my opinion, he specifically leveraged this advantage to deflect the fact that Evil Geniuses blatantly disrespected Team TSL (at least, we can all presumably agree: "by Korean standards"). So while the OP brings up a number of "lessons" from this whole event (highlighted in bold), allow me to claim another: As Starcraft 2 ESPORTS grows to a global scale, managers and other ESPORTS agents must strive to be aware of and (reasonably) sensitive to individual countries' cultural values.And a corollary: If you ignore or disregard a culture's values, you're digging your own grave.[[For the next chunk, I'm going to make an assumption about international business ethics that I believe is true, but I'll briefly address "if you believe something else" right afterward. Look after the first set of dashes separating sections for that.]] From the perspective of an international businessman interested in signing a player in Korea, you have to take the (general) perspective that you're a non-native purchasing an asset in a foreign country. Necessarily, this is going to involve some type of interaction with the people of that country. After all, you're entering another country in order to do business. Thought experiment time: Imagine that a foreign company enters your country to do business and sets up a factory a mile from your hometown. Then suppose they dump all types of industrial pollutants into the environment, including toxic waste into a river that supplies your town with drinking water. As a result, many of your friends become sick. Your mother comes down with a severe fever and must go to the hospital for two weeks to recover. Obviously, this company is in the ethical wrong, yes? Of course if your country has domestic environmental policy laws forbidding this behavior, the company would be in the legal wrong too. But let's even suppose that no such laws exist. Still -- What would your reaction be? (Feel free to insert alternate culturally/ethically offensive behavior by this hypothetical company as desired.) I think you'd be pissed. I think you'd be mad as hell. I think you'd be right. No one's argued with the fact that it's a cultural expectation in Korea that if a team is interested in recruiting the player, that the manager of that team speak with the manager of the player's team directly. In my opinion, EG blatantly violated this, a cultural value of Korea, in allowing the negotiations regarding Puma to go as far as they did before contacting TSL management directly. --- On the other hand, there's the tacit response: "Look. This is Business; stop being so naive. Business is a cut-throat, no-holds-barred, cold-hearted thing, where money talks, and that's that." So hey, let's throw ethics entirely out the window (or, perhaps, just disagree with me about whether it's Korea's ethics that should be respected (despite the fact that, well, this is a Korean player previously on a Korean team we're discussing)). What's the bare-bones utilitarian outcome of this entire thing? Frankly, even if EG profits considerably by adding Puma to their roster (even with all of this dramatic ado), they've still seriously damaged their relationship with Coach Lee Woon Jae, their relationship with Team TSL, and their reputation in the eyes of some (if not many) Korean fans. A clear consequence is that EG cannot continue behaving this way repeatedly. If they do, they risk alienating a greater and greater segment of the SC2 community. Cut off one friend. Cut off another. Eventually, you won't have any friends. ( This means you, EG.) --- That all said, I tend to agree with djWHEAT's commentary at the end of the Weapon of Choice episode (as well as the general theme of the OP): Despite everything going on here, Puma should end up ahead, and that's a GOOD thing. But importantly, don't let that distract you from the fact that there's a possible world out there, where EG behaves more appropriately, TSL's coach keeps his dignity, and Puma still gets the same great outcome in the end. Saying it is a cultural expectation that you talk with the coach first is ludicrous. I haven't read the whole thing, but I don't think eSports is mentioned in the "Analects of Confucius". Tell you what, set up a poll and ask all the employees over at Samsung if they think it'd be cool to, just, you know, hang out and work without a contract so they can sleep on a 요 and eat 만두 and 냉면 all summer. Mmmmm 냉면. To tell you the truth, I think EG will be one of the few teams to survive as this scene becomes more and more popular. At least they have an inkling of business sense. Consider: 1) In the NFL, MLB, etc. we routinely get media drama when another team's management has allegedly been talking to a player without anybody telling his current team. So even going by the standards of (American) pro sports, EG was out of line here (assuming for the sake of argument that everything went down as TSL alleges). 2) From what I know of Korean culture, the "community" reigns supreme, whether that "community" is the country, the business you work for, your school, church, etc. - and especially given the esports model Korea is used to TSL clearly would have expected any negotiations to go through them even if Puma wasn't under a formal contract. So the long and the short of it is that EG screwed up on a politeness/PR standpoint, even though they didn't do anything illegal or even underhanded (from what I know now). On the other hand, TSL has been repeatedly in the news do to player dissatisfaction, leading several times to players leaving, so I'm inclined to doubt that the screw-ups are all on EG's side.
1) Well yeah, that's because those players are under contract. This is like a team complaining that someone "stole" the water boy who happened to get in the fourth quarter after a bunch of injuries and throw a winning touchdown pass. Just doesn't add up.
2) Yes, you are absolutely correct that there is a large emphasis on the "community", but it doesn't apply in this case. There is no such thing as talking with a potential employee's boss/manager when hiring in Korea. The potential employee doesn't have to say anything, and could put in their notice for any reason (scary thing is it's very common for Korean bosses to immediately fire people who give notice). If you have good rapport with your boss, though, he/she is very likely to beat the offer of the other company if they wish to keep you. It isn't seen as a betrayal or insult.
If you really want to run with the "community" thing, why in the world would that coach say anything before that poor kid signed with EG? Can you even imagine what Puma is going through in his head? Listen, I've dealt with enough Korean bosses to see this as a guy who was angry with himself for not having money to sign Puma, and he lashed out without considering Puma's feelings or future for even a second. Doubt Puma has even gone through mandatory military service yet. With all that in my mind at that age I would crack!
I mentioned this in a post in another thread, but it's applicable here, too. Go look up the history of iPhone releases in Korea and I think you'll see the general Korean response to foreign competition.
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Wow, this post and the one about Puma has made me realize something. The gears are churning, and in a year E-sports will not be the same. Things are changing all around us, and this may very well be the start of E-sport's growth into worldwide recognition. We could be on the verge. Guys, remember this day, because this is when you will think back while watching a starcraft tournament game in AMERICA with most of america watching, you will think "oh yeah, that is when it all began"
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On July 23 2011 00:16 IslandLife wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 22:44 VGhost wrote:On July 22 2011 16:42 IslandLife wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 22 2011 15:15 Dayrlan wrote:(This will be somewhat long. Please choose to read it all before responding to any piece of it.) I think this article/post makes many excellent points, but it ignores one significant piece: The display of international business ethics (or in my opinion, lack thereof) from Evil Geniuses. Indeed, if you re-watch the recent Weapon of Choice episode and trace the conversation, it is easily to notice that the conversation originally was a debate over TSL Coach Lee Won Jae's anger at EG's behavior. The salient observation is that after Milkis (convincingly) made the point that EG's behavior was extremely rude and improper by Korean cultural standards, Mr. Garfield of EG changed the entire direction of the conversation towards his insinuation that Milkis was at fault for damaging EG. Indeed, as a previous poster points out, Mr. Garfield has significant experience and skill with PR compared to Milkis, and in my opinion, he specifically leveraged this advantage to deflect the fact that Evil Geniuses blatantly disrespected Team TSL (at least, we can all presumably agree: "by Korean standards"). So while the OP brings up a number of "lessons" from this whole event (highlighted in bold), allow me to claim another: As Starcraft 2 ESPORTS grows to a global scale, managers and other ESPORTS agents must strive to be aware of and (reasonably) sensitive to individual countries' cultural values.And a corollary: If you ignore or disregard a culture's values, you're digging your own grave.[[For the next chunk, I'm going to make an assumption about international business ethics that I believe is true, but I'll briefly address "if you believe something else" right afterward. Look after the first set of dashes separating sections for that.]] From the perspective of an international businessman interested in signing a player in Korea, you have to take the (general) perspective that you're a non-native purchasing an asset in a foreign country. Necessarily, this is going to involve some type of interaction with the people of that country. After all, you're entering another country in order to do business. Thought experiment time: Imagine that a foreign company enters your country to do business and sets up a factory a mile from your hometown. Then suppose they dump all types of industrial pollutants into the environment, including toxic waste into a river that supplies your town with drinking water. As a result, many of your friends become sick. Your mother comes down with a severe fever and must go to the hospital for two weeks to recover. Obviously, this company is in the ethical wrong, yes? Of course if your country has domestic environmental policy laws forbidding this behavior, the company would be in the legal wrong too. But let's even suppose that no such laws exist. Still -- What would your reaction be? (Feel free to insert alternate culturally/ethically offensive behavior by this hypothetical company as desired.) I think you'd be pissed. I think you'd be mad as hell. I think you'd be right. No one's argued with the fact that it's a cultural expectation in Korea that if a team is interested in recruiting the player, that the manager of that team speak with the manager of the player's team directly. In my opinion, EG blatantly violated this, a cultural value of Korea, in allowing the negotiations regarding Puma to go as far as they did before contacting TSL management directly. --- On the other hand, there's the tacit response: "Look. This is Business; stop being so naive. Business is a cut-throat, no-holds-barred, cold-hearted thing, where money talks, and that's that." So hey, let's throw ethics entirely out the window (or, perhaps, just disagree with me about whether it's Korea's ethics that should be respected (despite the fact that, well, this is a Korean player previously on a Korean team we're discussing)). What's the bare-bones utilitarian outcome of this entire thing? Frankly, even if EG profits considerably by adding Puma to their roster (even with all of this dramatic ado), they've still seriously damaged their relationship with Coach Lee Woon Jae, their relationship with Team TSL, and their reputation in the eyes of some (if not many) Korean fans. A clear consequence is that EG cannot continue behaving this way repeatedly. If they do, they risk alienating a greater and greater segment of the SC2 community. Cut off one friend. Cut off another. Eventually, you won't have any friends. ( This means you, EG.) --- That all said, I tend to agree with djWHEAT's commentary at the end of the Weapon of Choice episode (as well as the general theme of the OP): Despite everything going on here, Puma should end up ahead, and that's a GOOD thing. But importantly, don't let that distract you from the fact that there's a possible world out there, where EG behaves more appropriately, TSL's coach keeps his dignity, and Puma still gets the same great outcome in the end. Saying it is a cultural expectation that you talk with the coach first is ludicrous. I haven't read the whole thing, but I don't think eSports is mentioned in the "Analects of Confucius". Tell you what, set up a poll and ask all the employees over at Samsung if they think it'd be cool to, just, you know, hang out and work without a contract so they can sleep on a 요 and eat 만두 and 냉면 all summer. Mmmmm 냉면. To tell you the truth, I think EG will be one of the few teams to survive as this scene becomes more and more popular. At least they have an inkling of business sense. Consider: 1) In the NFL, MLB, etc. we routinely get media drama when another team's management has allegedly been talking to a player without anybody telling his current team. So even going by the standards of (American) pro sports, EG was out of line here (assuming for the sake of argument that everything went down as TSL alleges). 2) From what I know of Korean culture, the "community" reigns supreme, whether that "community" is the country, the business you work for, your school, church, etc. - and especially given the esports model Korea is used to TSL clearly would have expected any negotiations to go through them even if Puma wasn't under a formal contract. So the long and the short of it is that EG screwed up on a politeness/PR standpoint, even though they didn't do anything illegal or even underhanded (from what I know now). On the other hand, TSL has been repeatedly in the news do to player dissatisfaction, leading several times to players leaving, so I'm inclined to doubt that the screw-ups are all on EG's side. I mentioned this in a post in another thread, but it's applicable here, too. Go look up the history of iPhone releases in Korea and I think you'll see the general Korean response to foreign competition.
Like...
"A major assault against Apple has come from the Korean press, which promotes the Galaxy S as the "iPhone killer." An article about alleged service problems with the iPhone was headlined "Tasting Apple's bitter fruit." After Jobs suggested that government bureaucracy slowed the release of the iPhone 4 here, one paper ran the headline "Jobs lied, didn't he?"
Industry watchers acknowledge that Samsung, one of the nation's most powerful advertisers, might be behind the stories. "It may be true that they released some misleading news," said Kim Ji-hyun, the author of a book on South Korean telecommunications. "But this kind of marketing did work domestically."
At the end of the day, in regards to Korea, the issue is their culture lends itself to being self sufficient, thus they are perfectly content letting things run the course they've always ran. Why should Korea bother with change when this has always worked? But the international scene has grown exponentially and as it stands has a much broader range of coverage with SC2 than what Korea can offer.
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Part of the issue in how this arose, is that for the foreign community, Milkis is perhaps the ONLY source of korean information. Milkis represents korea, even if he doesn't wish to. Until there is a way to better spread information from the one culture to the other, this same issue will exist.
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I think a big argument that's been beaten to death is the status of contracted vs. uncontracted players in Korean SC2.
If they wanted to stay contracted they could have stuck with their status as B-team practice partners in BW and never switched to SC2 in the first place.
Coach Lee lashing out was the worst thing that could have happened for international esports. Korean-foreign relations for SC2 were extremely good up to this point, and now 95% of the Korean community is wary and it may trigger the end of competitive SC2 as we know it.
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On July 23 2011 00:37 PHC wrote:
I think a big argument that's been beaten to death is the status of contracted vs. uncontracted players in Korean SC2.
If they wanted to stay contracted they could have stuck with their status as B-team practice partners in BW and never switched to SC2 in the first place.
Coach Lee lashing out was the worst thing that could have happened for international esports. Korean-foreign relations for SC2 were extremely good up to this point, and now 95% of the Korean community is wary and it may trigger the end of competitive SC2 as we know it.
Wow these past few days TL forums just went from bearable to FUCKING AWFUL. Come on mods, you got to do something about it. First there was 1 thread about that topic, then 2, then 3, I mean, this shit spreads like cancer, I'm tired of reading speculation, assumptions and bias bullshit.
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On July 23 2011 00:34 DarkKiwi wrote:
Part of the issue in how this arose, is that for the foreign community, Milkis is perhaps the ONLY source of korean information. Milkis represents korea, even if he doesn't wish to. Until there is a way to better spread information from the one culture to the other, this same issue will exist.
He's not. If he hadn't done it, somebody else would have. It would've been one of the many translators on this site: GTR, Roffles, AltaiR_, CanucksJC, Carnivorous Sheep, dinki0825, l10f, Lyriene, Milkis, mrmin123, rotinegg, Selith, Smix, Waxangel. Or one of the many reddit users.
NASL was 2 weeks ago when they approached Puma. Please don't even try to buy into that EG snake's crap thinking that it's Milkis's fault for translating news on playxp 2 weeks after things were set in motion.
EG still hasn't made an official statement more than 24 hours after the news was broken. It sounded like the head of EG never wanted/planned to speak to the team/management of TSL since day 1 honestly.
EDIT: Changed "response" to "official statement" to make it less misleading. I watched yesterday's Weapon of Choice.
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Is it just me, or does Alex Garfield have absolutely no idea what defamation actually is in a legal context? I think it's very difficult for both sides of this conflict to understand each other primarily because of cultural leanings. Americans are, at least in the private sector, in love with lassaiz-faire capitalism, and have devised a hilarious field of 'business ethics' to justify things that, in the public sector, would be considered shady. Conversely, in Korea, there seems to be a lot more emphasis on familial relations. I notice this as a trend in Asian countries in general. A company is treated much like a family, even if there are contracts involved. This problem stems from the importance of the 'family business' in these countries.
Personally, I think EG is utterly in the wrong from any moral perspective imaginable (Alex probably thinks I'm defaming him, hah) but, from a legal point of view, they haven't really done anything wrong. I'm sort of sick of people trying to talk as if EG is immune to any sort of moral or honour code simply because "it's business' and businesses are expected to fuck with each other as much as possible. This is a fundamentally American idea, and it's hardly perfect. Just because businesses do fuck with each other doesn't mean we can't look down on them as being slaves to money and putting said money ahead of respect for their industry.
I'd invite all of you to consider why most leagues have governing bodies. It's because, deep down, everyone knows that the dealings of apathetic businesses aren't reflective of how people want the entertainment industry to play out on an everyday basis. Take a look at football. Everybody hates the Premier League's (e.g. MU) moneygrubbing, but at the very least there's measures in place to stop them from simply buying every player.
So yeah, you can harp on and on about how EG is doing what businesses do, but don't for a second pretend that a widespread extension of those sorts of actions would culminate in an enjoyable eSports experience. It would result in a monopoly of talent doled out to those who entered the game with the most money. And we certainly don't want that. Perhaps it took this event to get teams to realize that contracts are essential when dealing with American organizations (who thrive on capitalism, not respect--EG in particular is especially fond of this) which, by and large, have extremely humble origins (founded by kids with credit cards, essentially).
So, should we have any respect for EG's management? Honestly, not really. Perhaps you can commend them for their excellent business sense, in a coldly financial way, but nobody, I repeat, nobody, can pretend any longer that EG cares about the future of competitive Starcraft 2 except as a means to the end of making them money. Before I get lambasted for suggesting that businesses shouldn't care about money, let me state that my critique is a little different: EG ONLY cares about making money from SC2. They don't care about furthering the game for its own sake. It's possible to do both. I expect that every business wishes to keep itself afloat by bringing in money. That's not to say, however, that they can't at the same time care about the sport or enterprise itself.
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On July 23 2011 00:37 PHC wrote:
I think a big argument that's been beaten to death is the status of contracted vs. uncontracted players in Korean SC2.
If they wanted to stay contracted they could have stuck with their status as B-team practice partners in BW and never switched to SC2 in the first place.
Coach Lee lashing out was the worst thing that could have happened for international esports. Korean-foreign relations for SC2 were extremely good up to this point, and now 95% of the Korean community is wary and it may trigger the end of competitive SC2 as we know it.
If Korea closes their doors to the world in regards to SC2, they're dooming the game in their market. Korea alone in it's current system cannot survive with only itself. Instead of this crazy Korea vs. The World madness that seems to be accepted, they should also consider globalizing (like the rest of the world). SC2 will exist competively with or without Korea's hostility towards the global scene. The competitive scene would be better with Korea, obviously. Just as Korea's scene is stronger with foreign interest also driving it. Ending the competitive SC2 as we know it, may be a good thing if you consider the progress that could be made if it progresses.
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On July 23 2011 00:44 AlBundy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 00:37 PHC wrote:
I think a big argument that's been beaten to death is the status of contracted vs. uncontracted players in Korean SC2.
If they wanted to stay contracted they could have stuck with their status as B-team practice partners in BW and never switched to SC2 in the first place.
Coach Lee lashing out was the worst thing that could have happened for international esports. Korean-foreign relations for SC2 were extremely good up to this point, and now 95% of the Korean community is wary and it may trigger the end of competitive SC2 as we know it.
Wow these past few days TL forums just went from bearable to FUCKING AWFUL. Come on mods, you got to do something about it. First there was 1 thread about that topic, then 2, then 3, I mean, this shit spreads like cancer, I'm tired of reading speculation, assumptions and bias bullshit.
It's none of those things you said.
It's called perspective.
Your mindset generally is why E-Sports, in particular SC2, is going to struggling progressing to the next tier of it's potential.
People really need to stop posting about this specific EG/Puma situation and realize that is only a very small representation of a much bigger issue. And this post outlines the bigger issue, while using the Puma situation as an anecdotal reference point that is still fresh in our minds.
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On July 23 2011 00:44 AlBundy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 00:37 PHC wrote:
I think a big argument that's been beaten to death is the status of contracted vs. uncontracted players in Korean SC2.
If they wanted to stay contracted they could have stuck with their status as B-team practice partners in BW and never switched to SC2 in the first place.
Coach Lee lashing out was the worst thing that could have happened for international esports. Korean-foreign relations for SC2 were extremely good up to this point, and now 95% of the Korean community is wary and it may trigger the end of competitive SC2 as we know it.
Wow these past few days TL forums just went from bearable to FUCKING AWFUL. Come on mods, you got to do something about it. First there was 1 thread about that topic, then 2, then 3, I mean, this shit spreads like cancer, I'm tired of reading speculation, assumptions and bias bullshit.
Have you read the entire thread dude? I know it's easy to just read a single post and jump to conclusions, but why don't you add to the discussion? I gave many reasons on why the situation is troublesome.
There's absolutely no need to become aggressive. If you're "tired of reading speculation, assumptions, and bias bullshit" either don't read or progress the discussion in a civilized manner. What is wrong with you?
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On July 22 2011 12:49 ComusLoM wrote:What I took most offense too was this: Show nested quote +I'm not using the word defamation lightly here. In essence, Garfield was insinuating that Milkis was partially responsible for the damage caused to EG by translating content without doing proper justice to the "facts". Basically he was telling Milkis to do EG's work for them, and that's ridiculous, let's not forget this is the team that only represented their point of view (with intentional misinformation) regarding why TL was not participating in their team league. Now they're saying these kinds of threads on TL are damaging and should be done better.
Thank you soo much for posting this, because that's my opinion as well.
EG is releasing a statement without representing TL's side.
Milkis is translating/releasing a statement without representing EG's side.
One is ok - the other is not? I could understand that Alex's angry if their was an EG statement out and Milkis didnt include / link to this in his translation. But that wasnt the case.
On July 22 2011 12:49 ComusLoM wrote:
The thing is, I can only see this going badly for Puma, without TSL he won't have the coaches, the practice partners and the training schedule that allowed him to fully harness his skills that allowed him to win the NASL. EG say this is good for Korean esports and that the SK deal is bad:
The SK deal benefits all of oGs and is a far better way forward than acquiring a single player.
1. Foreign Teams get represented in foreign markets by Korean players
2. Korean players don't lose skill outside of general lack of practice during travel since they keep their support structure
3. Korean teams get more money to spend on gaining sponsorship, adding more players or sending other players to international events (they no longer have to pay for MC or Nada's travel although I believe MC contributed a bit to his own travel too)
Now in an ideal world player acquisitions (permanent) on foreign teams should result in the player being brought into the foreign practice house (currently non-existent) with a head coach and suitable practice partners in the form of similarly skilled teammates (also non-existent).
Compare this to:
1. Buy Player disregarding the players native culture
2. Either leave him in Korea or bring him to an incomplete team house without coaching or suitably skilled practice partners (eg says they have something planned not sure what)
3. Have player represent you either in Korea (good luck) or foreign events where he will be beaten by Koreans on real teams.
I just don't understand what EG is thinking with this kind of move Puma will be terrible in 3 months if he stays outside of the Korean practice ethos with coach and partners. And they'll be left where they started.
EG isnt stupid. The way he hinted at "something" and "we have working for this for the last 12-14 months" EG certainly has something planned.
My personal speculation would be, since he said they approached all Top4 players, that they did approach other Koreans as well (outside of NASL). So maybe the Korean EG house after all? Filled with Koreans acquired from other teams?
But the ball is currently in the hands of the Korean teams.
Emergency SC2 Association meeting. Everyone agrees to have their players signed immediately ("or find your own EG right now!" - which might play into EG's hands, since the doubting players might switch to EG then).
Team transfers to other members of the SC2 Association or "allowed" teams is ok. Transfers to teams outside of that circle is prohibited by contract aka: it's the team's decision (with player consent & a transfer sum).
"Loaning" players, like MC / Nada to foreign teams still allowed (aka team decision).
Then we have a mini Kespa. They could even force GOM to exclude players "marked" from their association ("or we will all pull our teams out") for example denying Puma a GSL entry.
That's how I would do it 
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On July 23 2011 00:50 Grimsong wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 00:37 PHC wrote:
I think a big argument that's been beaten to death is the status of contracted vs. uncontracted players in Korean SC2.
If they wanted to stay contracted they could have stuck with their status as B-team practice partners in BW and never switched to SC2 in the first place.
Coach Lee lashing out was the worst thing that could have happened for international esports. Korean-foreign relations for SC2 were extremely good up to this point, and now 95% of the Korean community is wary and it may trigger the end of competitive SC2 as we know it.
If Korea closes their doors to the world in regards to SC2, they're dooming the game in their market. Korea alone in it's current system cannot survive with only itself. Instead of this crazy Korea vs. The World madness that seems to be accepted, they should also consider globalizing (like the rest of the world). SC2 will exist competively with or without Korea's hostility towards the global scene. The competitive scene would be better with Korea, obviously. Just as Korea's scene is stronger with foreign interest also driving it. Ending the competitive SC2 as we know it, may be a good thing if you consider the progress that could be made if it progresses.
Korea can close the door to foreigners. They have the SC2 association which can put tremendeous pressure onto GOM.
Can the world close the door to Koreans? What if EG says "MLG/IEM/DH/NASL dont invite Koreans or we dont come" will teams like TL/mout/dignitas/Empire join that notion? I doubt it.
Look at EG's master cup. TL said "We dont join" and nothing changed.
The tournament organizers have to decide "EG or Koreans"? - I'd say the Koreans bring more fans.
The foreign scene is divided heavily. The Korean scene is united. Therefore they have more leverage.
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On July 23 2011 01:08 Zocat wrote:But the ball is currently in the hands of the Korean teams. Emergency SC2 Association meeting. Everyone agrees to have their players signed immediately ("or find your own EG right now!" - which might play into EG's hands, since the doubting players might switch to EG then). Team transfers to other members of the SC2 Association or "allowed" teams is ok. Transfers to teams outside of that circle is prohibited by contract aka: it's the team's decision (with player consent & a transfer sum). "Loaning" players, like MC / Nada to foreign teams still allowed (aka team decision). Then we have a mini Kespa. They could even force GOM to exclude players "marked" from their association ("or we will all pull our teams out") for example denying Puma a GSL entry. That's how I would do it
Why would you do it that way? Why would you promote restrictions in a market that wants to mix and match everyone on a global level? Korea creating a system to protect Korea? It seems to be stunting the growth/health of pushing E-Sports to the next level.
As a whole, it would be best bi-passing this whole Korean BW mindset.
It's not 2000 anymore, and SC2 isn't a booming product in Korea. Time to move on.
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On July 23 2011 01:15 Zocat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 00:50 Grimsong wrote:On July 23 2011 00:37 PHC wrote:
I think a big argument that's been beaten to death is the status of contracted vs. uncontracted players in Korean SC2.
If they wanted to stay contracted they could have stuck with their status as B-team practice partners in BW and never switched to SC2 in the first place.
Coach Lee lashing out was the worst thing that could have happened for international esports. Korean-foreign relations for SC2 were extremely good up to this point, and now 95% of the Korean community is wary and it may trigger the end of competitive SC2 as we know it.
If Korea closes their doors to the world in regards to SC2, they're dooming the game in their market. Korea alone in it's current system cannot survive with only itself. Instead of this crazy Korea vs. The World madness that seems to be accepted, they should also consider globalizing (like the rest of the world). SC2 will exist competively with or without Korea's hostility towards the global scene. The competitive scene would be better with Korea, obviously. Just as Korea's scene is stronger with foreign interest also driving it. Ending the competitive SC2 as we know it, may be a good thing if you consider the progress that could be made if it progresses. Korea can close the door to foreigners. They have the SC2 association which can put tremendeous pressure onto GOM. Can the world close the door to Koreans? What if EG says "MLG/IEM/DH/NASL dont invite Koreans or we dont come" will teams like TL/mout/dignitas/Empire join that notion? I doubt it. Look at EG's master cup. TL said "We dont join" and nothing changed. The tournament organizers have to decide "EG or Koreans"? - I'd say the Koreans bring more fans. The foreign scene is divided heavily. The Korean scene is united. Therefore they have more leverage.
The Korean scene is divided - Between BW and SC2.
The SC2 scene in Korea isn't what it is elsewhere, and isn't even a shadow of the popularity it had when it was all BW.
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On July 23 2011 00:59 PHC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 00:44 AlBundy wrote:On July 23 2011 00:37 PHC wrote:
I think a big argument that's been beaten to death is the status of contracted vs. uncontracted players in Korean SC2.
If they wanted to stay contracted they could have stuck with their status as B-team practice partners in BW and never switched to SC2 in the first place.
Coach Lee lashing out was the worst thing that could have happened for international esports. Korean-foreign relations for SC2 were extremely good up to this point, and now 95% of the Korean community is wary and it may trigger the end of competitive SC2 as we know it.
Wow these past few days TL forums just went from bearable to FUCKING AWFUL. Come on mods, you got to do something about it. First there was 1 thread about that topic, then 2, then 3, I mean, this shit spreads like cancer, I'm tired of reading speculation, assumptions and bias bullshit. Have you read the entire thread dude? I know it's easy to just read a single post and jump to conclusions, but why don't you add to the discussion? I gave many reasons on why the situation is troublesome. There's absolutely no need to become aggressive. If you're "tired of reading speculation, assumptions, and bias bullshit" either don't read or progress the discussion in a civilized manner. What is wrong with you?
Dude there's nothing personal; I read this thread, I read the "Puma leaves TSL for EG" thread (300 pages), the "weapon of choice" thread (and I watched the show), the "problem with korea" threads, the coach lee interview, anyway I know what I'm talking about. Can't have a civilized discussion when half the posts are misleading.
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On July 22 2011 12:03 k!llua wrote:
People are getting butthurt about the transfer of Puma, but let's keep in mind this is all to the benefit of Puma; whatever happens, he is going to benefit.
Where is Puma going to practice from now on? If anything, recent competitions have shown that you have to practice in a Korean pro house to get anywhere. I don't think this move is going to benefit him as a player at all.
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EPT
