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Puma leaves TSL for EG - Page 217

Forum Index > SC2 General
7189 CommentsPost a Reply
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chatuka
Profile Joined July 2011
1351 Posts
July 21 2011 19:32 GMT
#4321
well sponsors , GOM/Blizzard are paying for the GSL prize money. I think TSL will recover, there are hordes of young Koreans out of highschool just dying to get better at SC2. TSl will sign them up. As I said, it's not a big deal. Let Puma do what he wants with his new found cash and fame. the Korean scene will be just fine. I worry more about the Japanese, Chinese scene that Has NOT caught up to the Korean E-sport RTS arena. I can include Europeans to that mix as well.
Lokian
Profile Joined March 2010
United States699 Posts
July 21 2011 19:33 GMT
#4322
So much shitstorm from Puma leaving TSL. Why is TSL blaming EG when they did nothing wrong?

And don't say its because of korean 'traditions.' Obviously TSL manager lost a very valueble asset and is pissed because he didn't have a contract. He's pissed because EG didn't respect his authoriteh, which he never had since his players are contractless. That's the managers job, and now because of this incident, he expresses his pissed self to the media for no reason. All it does is make Puma feel even worse or blame EG for his own fault.
Watch my gaming channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/BedinSpace
Ownos
Profile Joined July 2010
United States2147 Posts
July 21 2011 19:33 GMT
#4323
On July 22 2011 04:18 GreEny K wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 04:17 babylon wrote:
On July 22 2011 04:15 [Atomic]Peace wrote:
On July 22 2011 04:14 TheRPGAddict wrote:
On July 22 2011 04:11 Lokian wrote:
yeah i wonder why tester/fruitdealer didn't piss the coach off? is it all because of appraoching the coach instead of the player? is that really pissworthy? just freedom of speech
I am sure it was a more upfront and negotiating oriented deal rather than a surprise shitstorm like this was.

The fact that Puma went to a foreign team and not another Korean team could be a factor as well.

Doubt it. Rain went to Fnatic, and nobody's feelings were hurt. FXO just bought fOu and nobody's feelings were hurt.

They're protesting more about the manner in which the switch happened than the fact that it happened.


Rain was already off the team before Fnatic picked him up. FXO didn't buy fOu, fOu approached them with the offer.


And what about Phoenix? Pretty sure he was still on MVP.
...deeper and deeper into the bowels of El Diablo
Grantiere
Profile Joined March 2011
United States129 Posts
July 21 2011 19:34 GMT
#4324
On July 22 2011 04:29 Wuster wrote:
Likewise, the first part is always going to be controversial. Just last year, when LeBron (who *was* a free agent) chose Miami over Cleveland a ton of people (outside Cleveland, who shouldn't have cared) raged day and night about him going for the money/better team.


This is a misread. Much like in the EG situation, people didn't rage about the outcome so much as about the way it was handled and presented. And, btw, unlike Puma, Lebron went for less money to a higher performing team; Puma's going to a team with worse players for more financial stability.
TheButtonmen
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada1403 Posts
July 21 2011 19:34 GMT
#4325
On July 22 2011 04:29 chatuka wrote:
i don't know what the big deal is. Yes TSL shoud've had a written contract with Puma. So, EG could pay TSL for the transfer of PUma for serious money. I don't know who is funding EG, my guess is Blizzard or some big corporate honcho.

It's just a game, it's not like this game is taking away your bread money.


A) No contract means EG owes TSL nothing.
B) EG isn't funded by anyone (lol Blizzard what?) EG has been around a hell of a lot longer then WoW / SC2 and has teams for a lot more then just Blizzard titles. EG is sponsored but it's really quite simple to find out who those are had you bothered to do anything more then just hit the post button.
C) EG and TSL are businesses, this isn't a game for them nor is it bread money this is their livelihoods.
BeeNu
Profile Joined June 2011
615 Posts
July 21 2011 19:34 GMT
#4326
Pimps up, hoes down

User was warned for this post
Zinnwaldite
Profile Joined August 2010
Norway1567 Posts
July 21 2011 19:34 GMT
#4327
On July 22 2011 04:32 PHC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 04:27 StatikKhaos wrote:
On July 22 2011 04:25 PHC wrote:
On July 22 2011 04:24 Sein wrote:
EG, what do you say to TSL's accusation that you lied? Where is your secondary damage control team for the damage control team?



What bothers me the most are the tweets coming from EG's team manager:

SirScoots SirScoots
I see esports journalism continues its fine tradition of no fact checking! Bravo! Bravo! /me rolls eyes
11 hours ago

@thedevilshorse @OrangeMilkis Actually, I was not talking about them either...everyone assumes to "know" everything these days.
11 hours ago

@thirnaz umadbro?
9 hours ago

@ZinZio what does laughing at your comment do then?
3 hours ago

@ZinZio Then you should not be so quick to judge without hearing all the facts eh? Just a thought or take jabs and hate instead I guess.
3 hours ago


Lol there we go with one sidedness, did you read what thimaz said? you can't just post one side of a conversation



Yes, I did.

thirnaz adam
@SirScoots you have yo be the biggest fucking joke of all time within esports; such a sad character you are.
10 hours ago

ZinZio Zach
@SirScoots Your response to @thirnaz just goes to show how professional EG has become..
3 hours ago

The fact that he's not addressing the issue and is replying to hateful comments with "umadbro?" with millions of SC fans around the world watching and hundreds of Korean progaming careers are affected because of his behavior....



why would he do that on twitter though? people should wait for the inevitable public statement from EG instead of acting like morons. Answers will come..
We promise with a view to hope, but the reason to "accomplish" what we promised would be fear.
sekritzzz
Profile Joined December 2010
1515 Posts
July 21 2011 19:34 GMT
#4328
On July 22 2011 04:32 Sprouter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 04:29 JWD wrote:
On July 22 2011 04:26 Milkis wrote:
On July 22 2011 04:23 JWD wrote:
On July 22 2011 04:22 [Atomic]Peace wrote:
On July 22 2011 04:19 LegendaryZ wrote:
I'm concerned about the effects this event is going to have. Some people seem to believe that this kind of thing is somehow positive for eSports and will help it grow because players will have more power to guarantee themselves better conditions. I disagree with this and believe that it may very well negatively affect the eSports scene.

Up until this point, the Starcraft 2 scene has largely been run on trust and cooperation. This is what has allowed for the relative lack of regulation within teams and across leagues. EG in this instance has essentially abused that trust and taken advantage of it by poaching a player at a foreign event. You can certainly fault TSL for lacking foresight and not mandating a contract, but this type of naivete is pretty much what many people praised about the SC2 scene. We like to bash KeSPA for its heavy regulations and control over players, but that's exactly what people faulting TSL are arguing should be the norm while at the same time not wanting such a regulatory body to come into fruition.

I'm afraid that a KeSPA-like organization or at least that type of atmosphere is going to be created in response to this, effectively forcing players into contracts and heavily regulating their freedoms in an effort for teams to ensure the protection of their investments. While what EG has done here isn't necessarily wrong, it can't be denied that they've effectively "changed the game" as far as the way teams and players interact goes and the statement that Manager Lee made about measures being put into place in order to prevent this from happening in the future is an immediate indicator of that. The sweet and innocent SC2 scene that we've known so far has all of a sudden become serious business with all of the atmosphere of distrust that comes with it.

It may make the scene more legitimate and closer to the real sports leagues that we see today, but I wonder if that's what we really want for SC2. After all, KeSPA was undeniably an effective organization whose methods, while somewhat ruthless, are tried and true in the business sense (EG would have never been able to pull this on one of their teams or players). Honestly though, when you consider this, don't we want teams to be a little bit more naive and trusting if only for the sake of the players?

KeSPA2 will only happen in the players themselves accept it. And I think they wont, given the treatment of players under KeSPA.

What's your basis for the bolded statement (I'm legitimately curious; not a knock)? I haven't ever heard that KeSPA was created or ever promulgated rules with the consent of the players. My understanding is that KeSPA is an organization founded and controlled by the Korean government and the team sponsors, not the players.


Kespa has nothing to do with korean government wtf.

KeSPA originally started the same way as SC2 kespa did fyi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_e-Sports_Players_Association

That article says that KeSPA was formed with the approval of the Korean Ministry of Culture, Sports and Tourism, and that the Ministry is KeSPA's "Parent Organization". That comports with my understanding of KeSPA. Am I and the article both incorrect?

I would love to get more information on this.
I'm pretty sure that Kespa is subsidized by the govt, there was a post that was concerned that korean esports would be cut in a govt budget cut a while back.

Subsidies means the govt supports it not controls it.
JWD
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States12607 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-21 19:35:39
July 21 2011 19:34 GMT
#4329
On July 22 2011 04:32 Sprouter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 04:29 JWD wrote:
On July 22 2011 04:26 Milkis wrote:
On July 22 2011 04:23 JWD wrote:
On July 22 2011 04:22 [Atomic]Peace wrote:
On July 22 2011 04:19 LegendaryZ wrote:
I'm concerned about the effects this event is going to have. Some people seem to believe that this kind of thing is somehow positive for eSports and will help it grow because players will have more power to guarantee themselves better conditions. I disagree with this and believe that it may very well negatively affect the eSports scene.

Up until this point, the Starcraft 2 scene has largely been run on trust and cooperation. This is what has allowed for the relative lack of regulation within teams and across leagues. EG in this instance has essentially abused that trust and taken advantage of it by poaching a player at a foreign event. You can certainly fault TSL for lacking foresight and not mandating a contract, but this type of naivete is pretty much what many people praised about the SC2 scene. We like to bash KeSPA for its heavy regulations and control over players, but that's exactly what people faulting TSL are arguing should be the norm while at the same time not wanting such a regulatory body to come into fruition.

I'm afraid that a KeSPA-like organization or at least that type of atmosphere is going to be created in response to this, effectively forcing players into contracts and heavily regulating their freedoms in an effort for teams to ensure the protection of their investments. While what EG has done here isn't necessarily wrong, it can't be denied that they've effectively "changed the game" as far as the way teams and players interact goes and the statement that Manager Lee made about measures being put into place in order to prevent this from happening in the future is an immediate indicator of that. The sweet and innocent SC2 scene that we've known so far has all of a sudden become serious business with all of the atmosphere of distrust that comes with it.

It may make the scene more legitimate and closer to the real sports leagues that we see today, but I wonder if that's what we really want for SC2. After all, KeSPA was undeniably an effective organization whose methods, while somewhat ruthless, are tried and true in the business sense (EG would have never been able to pull this on one of their teams or players). Honestly though, when you consider this, don't we want teams to be a little bit more naive and trusting if only for the sake of the players?

KeSPA2 will only happen in the players themselves accept it. And I think they wont, given the treatment of players under KeSPA.

What's your basis for the bolded statement (I'm legitimately curious; not a knock)? I haven't ever heard that KeSPA was created or ever promulgated rules with the consent of the players. My understanding is that KeSPA is an organization founded and controlled by the Korean government and the team sponsors, not the players.


Kespa has nothing to do with korean government wtf.

KeSPA originally started the same way as SC2 kespa did fyi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_e-Sports_Players_Association

That article says that KeSPA was formed with the approval of the Korean Ministry of Culture, Sports and Tourism, and that the Ministry is KeSPA's "Parent Organization". That comports with my understanding of KeSPA. Am I and the article both incorrect?

I would love to get more information on this.
I'm pretty sure that Kespa is subsidized by the govt, there was a post that was concerned that korean esports would be cut in a govt budget cut a while back.

Ah yes thank you, I did vaguely remember something like this as well (though not well enough to be able to find the news post ). If our memories are correct, there definitely is some ongoing connection between KeSPA and the Korean government.

Hopefully Milkis can help us figure this out since he is a knowledgeable guy and seemed pretty convinced that KeSPA has nothing to do with the government.
✌
Amui
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada10567 Posts
July 21 2011 19:35 GMT
#4330
Even without a contract, it's extremely unprofessional to contact a player without talking to their coach/team managers first. This is my opinion, but Puma must've been mistreated or is just the majOr of korea because if TSL provided 10 months of food, board and training, he should at least have the decency to stick around and ask his coach, and try and get some sort of compensation from EG rather than leaving immediately.
Porouscloud - NA LoL
sylverfyre
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8298 Posts
July 21 2011 19:35 GMT
#4331
I really think there's something going on behind the scenes with TSL that players aren't wanting to stay - this isn't exactly the first time one of their big names has left.
natey-nate
Profile Joined June 2011
United States20 Posts
July 21 2011 19:35 GMT
#4332
On July 22 2011 04:29 Wuster wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 04:22 shawster wrote:
On July 22 2011 04:20 GreEny K wrote:
On July 22 2011 04:18 shawster wrote:
so i'm in the middle of the shitstorm but i gotta ask something, i can't really form an opinion

so from what i've read so far, puma was approached by eg directly and this was questionable.

but why is giving a player a lucrative contract in any way stealing a player? why couldn't the korean team give him a offer that matches EG's offer? if TSL wasn't able to match it and puma went to EG that wouldn't be unethical or anything, it's just one team wanting a player more than another team.

unless the shitstorm is about how the management could've stopped puma from leaving and they weren't able to. maybe it's my western state of mind that tells me that if one team pays more the team should get it.


You came in really late to this argument, this has already been discussed multiple times. People can't agree on if it is right or wrong to do something like that.


oh so people are arguing over whether it's right for a player to go where the money is? or is it about how foreign teams shouldn't confront the player without talking to the team?

still kinda lost


More about the second part. Xeris posted that EG was approached a bunch of players at NASL about joining EG, including Sen. The morality of what happened is going to be argued about for the end of time. This situation is controversial even in America (so it's not the norm in America for those who are assuming otherwise), for example I think Howard Stern spent about a week slamming Leno on his radio show when he hired away one of Stern's guys without talking to him first or at all during the processes.

Likewise, the first part is always going to be controversial. Just last year, when LeBron (who *was* a free agent) chose Miami over Cleveland a ton of people (outside Cleveland, who shouldn't have cared) raged day and night about him going for the money/better team.


iirc Cleveland was offering Lebron MORE money than Miami (who had to reduce his salary to afford him, wade, and bosh all together). People were more upset with him because it made his whole free agency a gigantic spectacle culminating in an hour-long special just to announce what team he was choosing.

Puma did win the NASL, but he is nowhere near the icon of SC2 as Lebron is to basketball. I don't really see the comparison between those 2 situations.
farnham
Profile Joined January 2011
1378 Posts
July 21 2011 19:36 GMT
#4333
On July 22 2011 04:31 FairForever wrote:
I'm not familiar with antitrust law in Korea (if it even exists)... in America you could definitely get blasted for that though. I'm genuinely curious to know how KeSPA exists.

what does antitrust law have to do anything with employment contracts
ReaperX
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Hong Kong1758 Posts
July 21 2011 19:36 GMT
#4334
MajOr left ROOT just like QXC left. No sponsors. He'll be in SJ for a long time.
Artosis : Clide. idrA : Shut up.
befek
Profile Joined September 2010
Poland413 Posts
July 21 2011 19:36 GMT
#4335
So basicly its like:
EG: sup we have some money for you, interested?
Puma: sure
TSL: ARGH we havent been paying him, but we thought he is fine with what he had (losing uprising star)

I dont see how EG did smth wrong, its just how things are in esport.
Dan "Artosis" Stark: Roaches are coming, Game of Drones begins!
legaton
Profile Joined December 2010
France1763 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-21 19:37:35
July 21 2011 19:36 GMT
#4336
Liquid - oGs: partnership. Everyone is happy about it.

SK Gaming - oGs: sponsorship for Nada and MC in foreign tournaments. Everyones happy about it

Fanatic - Rain: recruitment of a new player. Some critics against Rain for leaving GSL so abruptly. No critics to Fanatic.

FXO - Fou : buy-out after friendly negotiation. Everyone is happy about it.

EG - TSL/Puma: recruitment of a player behind his team's back, lies about Puma contacting them first. TSL/Korean community is pissed off.

People can claim "that's how capitalism work" all they want. Doesn't change the fact it is a shitty argument. Fanatic, Liquid, FXO, Sk Gaming are all pro structures working under free market conditions (aka capitalism). They had no problem negotiating their way through koreans team and players and founding acceptable agreements for all parties involved. What EG did just shows they have a short-sighted management and poor PR.
No GG, No Skill - Jaedong <3
Nastiness
Profile Joined February 2011
Sweden275 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-21 19:38:23
July 21 2011 19:37 GMT
#4337
On July 22 2011 03:31 DBOWNIZZ wrote:
My god, IF PUMA HAD A CONTRACT HE WOULD NOT BE ALOUD TO LEAVE TSL....THATS THE WHOLE FUCKING POINT OF A CONTRACT, DUHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

User was warned for this post


They break contracts all the time in counter-strike, with little to none aftermath.

Esport is sucha phoony joke

so i dont see any change even if contracts would come in use.. since the business is run by average joes
There is no rest in the dark realm.
chatuka
Profile Joined July 2011
1351 Posts
July 21 2011 19:37 GMT
#4338
On July 22 2011 04:33 Lokian wrote:
So much shitstorm from Puma leaving TSL. Why is TSL blaming EG when they did nothing wrong?

And don't say its because of korean 'traditions.' Obviously TSL manager lost a very valueble asset and is pissed because he didn't have a contract. He's pissed because EG didn't respect his authoriteh, which he never had since his players are contractless. That's the managers job, and now because of this incident, he expresses his pissed self to the media for no reason. All it does is make Puma feel even worse or blame EG for his own fault.


TSL made a mistake by not writing a written contract. Lee coached him, housed him, saw his you know bathroom deeds. they were like a clan, family. You get ATTACHED or bonded to people or creatures. that is nature. But business will overcome bonding, if that means living a MUCH better lifestyle than a previous one. That is why Millions of tribal Altaic Chinese people and Altaic Russians renounced their culture for better economic life of the communist states. Pure Economic necessity to have indoor plumbing, steady food source. Puma did exactly that, can not blame him.. Neither can you blame EG., can not root for them, since I don't care much for EG.
farnham
Profile Joined January 2011
1378 Posts
July 21 2011 19:37 GMT
#4339
On July 22 2011 04:32 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 04:17 Teejing wrote:
Good for PUMA, all the power to the players ! We dont need Kespa-slavemasters !

Rofl. Ironically enough, this incident will cause contracts to occur, thanks to Puma's actions. Someone didn't read the OP.

contracts and kespa are not related in anyway

you can have contracts within the teams and not have a strict organization that regulates everything
1oo
Profile Joined April 2011
Portugal876 Posts
July 21 2011 19:37 GMT
#4340
it was lame in sc1, its still lame in sc2.
At the top of the game, we play by diferent rules.
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