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On July 13 2011 05:19 svarog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 04:32 OCsurfeR wrote:On July 13 2011 04:24 svarog wrote:On July 13 2011 04:21 OCsurfeR wrote:On July 13 2011 03:21 bbulzibar wrote:
I've read every post in the entire thread, and I too few people supported Xeris's decision to have incontrol and gretorp cast the finals. I absolutely think this was the right move. I would be horrified if I casted the entire regular season, only to be dumped for the finals by people who flew in for a weekend. It doesn't matter if tastosis would have done a better job, you can't treat your people like disposable diapers. Kudos on making the right choice, and treating your casters well!!! Yep, you got it, that is exactly our position and was our reasoning. Well done sir  Sorry for the jab, but can you look Ret in the eyes and say the same? Not sure what Ret has to do with the casters we chose. I talked to Ret several times during the tournament. BTW, Ret stayed for nearly every single second of the Finals after he was eliminated, and was gracious and supportive of the entire event. He's coming back strong next season and is ready to continue his strong competitive position within the NASL. To quote the post to which you replied: "I would be horrified if I casted the entire regular season, only to be dumped for the finals by people who flew in for a weekend." If you do not see the parallel I cannot help you mate. It was a jab after all.
I get the comparison now. In either case, Ret didn't seem concerned whom he lost to as much as he was that he lost in general. If you're going to lose, losing to the guy that ends up winning the whole thing is at least satisfying because you know the guy that beat you beat everyone else too.
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On July 13 2011 05:24 xuanzue wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 05:19 Holcan wrote:On July 13 2011 05:02 xuanzue wrote:
i said it before, a league with swiss format (64 players & 6 rounds) bring 192 matches, instead of the actually 225 matches. it's more easy in the edition, and could bring more NA players. except swiss is the worst format and rewards people for losing, no thanks ! in the swiss-format tournaments that i have seen the top players really take the top spots, it's not like those single elimination tournaments where the runner up takes that spot because a easy bracket. swiss format had good performance in chess belong decades, you need to explain better why it's the worst format.
One problem with the Swiss system: The incentives are often unequal for
"odd" opponents who have different scores, particularly in the last two
rounds. For example, in the last round of a minor tournament (5 rounds, 29
players), I played the only person with a perfect record. Since I won, I
split first place with 5 people (worth $150), and if I had lost or drawn I
would have gotten nothing, whereas my opponent would have had a clear first
place finish ($400) if he had won or drawn, but instead he shared first
place. So, between the two of us, we would get $400 if he won and $300 if I
won. This imbalance means that it would be rational for him to offer me
$200 to resign once I had a winning position; we would both be $50 better
off, and 3 people would be $33 worse off splitting second place. Of course,
in chess, this would result in a double forfeit if caught. In backgammon,
though, players may be used to hedging, and who would fault a player with
no chance of winning money for giving up against an opponent who can while
trailing Crawford 7-away at 2 am? This suggests that one should use a
hybrid system, or make sure that there are at least token incentives for
players not to throw matches in the last round. Of course, the problem is
much smaller for the Swiss system than for a round robin format.
On the logistical side, most people don't have to wait for the last game of
the previous round to finish for the next round of a round robin tournament
to be played, but by some pairing rules for the Swiss system one does have
to wait. Tournament directors seem to look more stressed under the Swiss
system.
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On July 13 2011 05:32 OCsurfeR wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 05:19 svarog wrote:On July 13 2011 04:32 OCsurfeR wrote:On July 13 2011 04:24 svarog wrote:On July 13 2011 04:21 OCsurfeR wrote:On July 13 2011 03:21 bbulzibar wrote:
I've read every post in the entire thread, and I too few people supported Xeris's decision to have incontrol and gretorp cast the finals. I absolutely think this was the right move. I would be horrified if I casted the entire regular season, only to be dumped for the finals by people who flew in for a weekend. It doesn't matter if tastosis would have done a better job, you can't treat your people like disposable diapers. Kudos on making the right choice, and treating your casters well!!! Yep, you got it, that is exactly our position and was our reasoning. Well done sir Sorry for the jab, but can you look Ret in the eyes and say the same? Not sure what Ret has to do with the casters we chose. I talked to Ret several times during the tournament. BTW, Ret stayed for nearly every single second of the Finals after he was eliminated, and was gracious and supportive of the entire event. He's coming back strong next season and is ready to continue his strong competitive position within the NASL. To quote the post to which you replied: "I would be horrified if I casted the entire regular season, only to be dumped for the finals by people who flew in for a weekend." If you do not see the parallel I cannot help you mate. It was a jab after all. I get the comparison now. In either case, Ret didn't seem concerned whom he lost to as much as he was that he lost in general. If you're going to lose, losing to the guy that ends up winning the whole thing is at least satisfying because you know the guy that beat you beat everyone else too.
Yes and no. It's much less satisfying because you
1) Consequently didn't get to make it as far in the tournament.
2) Consequently didn't get as much prize money if he faced someone weaker and had advanced.
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That assumes Ret would have made it further had he faced somebody else. That's not a known outcome.
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On July 13 2011 05:37 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 05:32 OCsurfeR wrote:On July 13 2011 05:19 svarog wrote:On July 13 2011 04:32 OCsurfeR wrote:On July 13 2011 04:24 svarog wrote:On July 13 2011 04:21 OCsurfeR wrote:On July 13 2011 03:21 bbulzibar wrote:
I've read every post in the entire thread, and I too few people supported Xeris's decision to have incontrol and gretorp cast the finals. I absolutely think this was the right move. I would be horrified if I casted the entire regular season, only to be dumped for the finals by people who flew in for a weekend. It doesn't matter if tastosis would have done a better job, you can't treat your people like disposable diapers. Kudos on making the right choice, and treating your casters well!!! Yep, you got it, that is exactly our position and was our reasoning. Well done sir Sorry for the jab, but can you look Ret in the eyes and say the same? Not sure what Ret has to do with the casters we chose. I talked to Ret several times during the tournament. BTW, Ret stayed for nearly every single second of the Finals after he was eliminated, and was gracious and supportive of the entire event. He's coming back strong next season and is ready to continue his strong competitive position within the NASL. To quote the post to which you replied: "I would be horrified if I casted the entire regular season, only to be dumped for the finals by people who flew in for a weekend." If you do not see the parallel I cannot help you mate. It was a jab after all. I get the comparison now. In either case, Ret didn't seem concerned whom he lost to as much as he was that he lost in general. If you're going to lose, losing to the guy that ends up winning the whole thing is at least satisfying because you know the guy that beat you beat everyone else too. Yes and no. It's much less satisfying because you 1) Consequently didn't get to make it as far in the tournament. 2) Consequently didn't get as much prize money if he faced someone weaker and had advanced.
Well, there's no assuming that PuMa would have won. He's a player who literally has no accomplishments and is known for choking in big events. Anyone he played would have been really hard, but it's not like anyone in the Ro16 had an easy opponent.
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Glad to see the NASL is taking these issues to heart. I have very high hopes for season 2 :D
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Anna and Rachel are more than capable of interviewing people well. The problem was a lack of preparation time (for both the interviewer and the interviewee) after the match.
Next time, I would recommend having Artosis, Gretorp or whatever casting team is up their kill time with some post-game analysis. When people say they wish Artosis was doing the interview, I think part of that comes from fans just wanting to hear pro-gamers analyze the game.
This should buy an extra 5-7 minutes for the interviewer, translator and player to relax a bit and get on the same page.
In fact, to kill time between matches, why not have Gretorp or Mr Bitters interview other players at the tournament about the games they just watched?
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On July 13 2011 05:43 OCsurfeR wrote:
That assumes Ret would have made it further had he faced somebody else. That's not a known outcome.
I agree. There's a ton of different variables. But it was in response to saying "if you lose to someone, at least it's satisfying knowing you lost to the person who won." I'm merely saying that if I lost to the person who won, I'd be super bummed, thinking "damn, if only I played someone weaker first I wouldn't have been knocked out so fast, and I would have got more prize money to make the trip more worth it." It'd be a bummer for him considering he was the #1 seed.
Like I said though, I thnk the #1 seed should be able to pick his opponent in the boottm 8, then the #2 seed should pick from the remaining 7, etc. I think that'd be the coolest way and reward players no matter what for getting a higher seed in the top 8 (although, I guess it would make seeds 9-16 useless?).
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On July 13 2011 05:43 OCsurfeR wrote:
That assumes Ret would have made it further had he faced somebody else. That's not a known outcome.
People just feel disproportionately sorry for Ret because he's Ret. He's like the Eeyore of SC2.
I do think there should be a better reward or incentive for placing first in the league, though. The league is so competitive it's actually an amazing accomplishment to be 1st, and it deserves some kind of recognition. Like an extra $500 or something.
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One thing I just can't understand. What is up with the casting teams of two in SC2? Why NO foreign event ever had three? There is so much flexibility with a setup of this kind. You can employ two casters that are fairly used to each other (and have fitting styles - while I understand why you decided to go with Incontrol and Gretorp for the final game - and I respect both a whole lot, they are simply not very good at what they do, or at least don't have a style of casting fitting an event like NASL) and add someone who will drop a comment every now and then, maybe even (an american) player (because it cannot be as lax as homestory). He doesn't have to be a very active participant, but just having a casting trio changes the dynamic of the commentary A LOT.
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On July 13 2011 04:35 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 04:29 Duravi wrote:
Lindsey did a great job for the situation she was in, I have nothing but respect for her. If you watched Weapon of Choice this weekend, djWheat made an excellent point though, why did you hire someone to walk around and do interviews who had no knowledge about the community or game? Why not at least give her a brief education or rundown first if she was your only choice? It was a huge missed opportunity. This seems to be a central theme of NASL, putting people who are not qualified to do what they are doing in a position where they will undoubtedly make mistakes.
The sound issue is another one you dodged most of, the sound was bad all weekend, even up to the finals where we missed two interview questions. Big thumbs up to gunrun for trying to help, but the bigger problem is why would you need the help of an audience member in the first place? Do you think at a concert the sound guy(s) would let or need anyone from the audience to come help? It seems like yet another case of putting someone (infamous "sound guy") who wasn't qualified in a position where they would struggle. It is not fair to the people you are doing this to, or your audience.
Lastly the web-site is atrocious, not just in terms of design but in terms of getting any information out of. It is often not updated until the last minute if at all. There are probably volunteers from the community who would jump to help you and design a website that is 10x better than the one you have now (which I seriously hope you are not paying someone for).
First: Gunrun isn't an audience member. He's an employee at Justin.tv and it's his job to help fix stream issues, which is what he was doing. He was also rotating with Gretorp doing observing of games. We're aware of the sound problems. We're going to be working to fix them so it hopefully won't happen at our next event!
Unless I'm mistaken, it's not his job to observe games for you. Why didn't you follow the lead of many other major tournaments and hire a dedicated observer?
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Audio. God, the audio. You had a huge mixing desk and units everywhere, but the audio was constantly either distorting or not even present. I'd love to see it improved for the next season, as it really did dent the experience of watching the finals.
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Wow very well thought out, I really enjoyed season one, Hope season two will be at least ten times better. :D
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My main advice is: don't fly in a top-caster duo such as Tasteless and Artosis and then proceed to NOT use them for the semi-finals and the finals. That's just grossly wasting money AND potential.
With all due respect to Gretorp and InControl, but they're not even in the same league as Tasteless and Artosis. Noone is. No caster duo has the same amount of experience and chemistry these two have. They've basically been doing it (semi-)professionally for years. If you fly them over all the way from Korea, at least use them. Not using them is basically the same as inviting, say, Robert de Niro to do some small guest part because you want your best friend, who's not nearly as good an actor, to play the lead in your film lest you hurt his feelings. If you've got the available resources, put them to use instead of wasting them.
If you want people to view the NASL as a high-profile tournament instead of a long-spun event by and for friends that just so happens to have a $100,000 prize pool, start treating it as such and hire professionals, no matter how hard it may be for some people's egos (you may have to tell friends that they will be replaced by people who're doing what they do because it's their job instead of their hobby, which is always a hard thing to do).
The whole tournament looked like it had a lot of passion for the game but no business plan at all, which is pretty much obligatory if multiple seasons are planned.
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MURICA15980 Posts
I would like to add that having a group stage at the Finals after the players have just been through a grueling 9 weeks of group stages to qualify for it is not unprecedented. I would like you to look at the World Cup Finals - the single biggest sporting event in the world- as an example.
Because it is held only every 4 years, there is a qualifying campaign that starts as early as 2 years before the competition begins. Yes, two years. And often times this qualification process is brutal and intense, as well as stretching over periods of months and years. And much of the qualifications for most continents are based on group stages where the top-x of the continental divisions advance to the World Cup. But after they get to the World Cup Finals, they play another group stage. Why? Maybe because playing one match and getting eliminated Tennis-style would make the tournament much less attractive for both players and viewers.
I am not saying NASL should use group stages, but I strongly advise the NASL to move away from single-elimination.
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On July 13 2011 06:20 maartendq wrote:
My main advice is: don't fly in a top-caster duo such as Tasteless and Artosis and then proceed to NOT use them for the semi-finals and the finals. That's just grossly wasting money AND potential.
With all due respect to Gretorp and InControl, but they're not even in the same league as Tasteless and Artosis. Noone is. No caster duo has the same amount of experience and chemistry these two have. They've basically been doing it (semi-)professionally for years. If you fly them over all the way from Korea, at least use them. Not using them is basically the same as inviting, say, Robert de Niro to do some small guest part because you want your best friend, who's not nearly as good an actor, to play the lead in your film lest you hurt his feelings. If you've got the available resources, put them to use instead of wasting them.
If you want people to view the NASL as a high-profile tournament instead of a long-spun event by and for friends that just so happens to have a $100,000 prize pool, start treating it as such and hire professionals, no matter how hard it may be for some people's egos (you may have to tell friends that they will be replaced by people who're doing what they do because it's their job instead of their hobby, which is always a hard thing to do).
The whole tournament looked like it had a lot of passion for the game but no business plan at all, which is pretty much obligatory if multiple seasons are planned.
like good actors never make secondary roles...?
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On July 13 2011 06:20 maartendq wrote:
My main advice is: don't fly in a top-caster duo such as Tasteless and Artosis and then proceed to NOT use them for the semi-finals and the finals. That's just grossly wasting money AND potential.
With all due respect to Gretorp and InControl, but they're not even in the same league as Tasteless and Artosis. Noone is. No caster duo has the same amount of experience and chemistry these two have. They've basically been doing it (semi-)professionally for years. If you fly them over all the way from Korea, at least use them. Not using them is basically the same as inviting, say, Robert de Niro to do some small guest part because you want your best friend, who's not nearly as good an actor, to play the lead in your film lest you hurt his feelings. If you've got the available resources, put them to use instead of wasting them.
If you want people to view the NASL as a high-profile tournament instead of a long-spun event by and for friends that just so happens to have a $100,000 prize pool, start treating it as such and hire professionals, no matter how hard it may be for some people's egos (you may have to tell friends that they will be replaced by people who're doing what they do because it's their job instead of their hobby, which is always a hard thing to do).
The whole tournament looked like it had a lot of passion for the game but no business plan at all, which is pretty much obligatory if multiple seasons are planned.
You do know there's lots of movies where actors just do guest apperances for fun? I'm pretty sure Tastosis had a blast just talking to fans and actually watching the final instead of casting it. I think they too feel like the NASL final casting is reserved for Gretorp and Incontrol tbh.
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P.S. I prefer single-elimination. Please keep it. I just hate double elimination because I think it makes the finals MUCH more anti-climactic. You could always make it like NBA/MLB/NHL and have every single series be Bo7! That way tons of games :D.
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On July 13 2011 04:17 ZergFerguson wrote:
On that note, in Puma's interview after the Squirtle match, Anna asked him if it was more important to him to win the money or beat the best players, and he said "I just want more people to know who I am." I think money and fame are the biggest draws for top players. So, make a BIG deal about Puma. Do what you can to make him famous. Produce a high-end video of his highlights with crowds cheering, and end with him holding the check for $50,000 surrounded by booth babes. Put it on YouTube and wherever else your target market spends time. I would make it your goal to make sure EVERYONE who plays Starcraft knows who he is. That is what will keep the big names coming back and ensure the quality of NASL.
This is a really fantastic idea, and I'd love to see something like this.
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You can not pit the top seed from one qualifying process with the top seed from another qualifying process, one that is arguably much harder to win, and pretend to be a legitimate competition. It's hard to imagine a more contemptible situation, but then you gave the runner up from the open tournament a higher seed than the winner; what can I say. I think it's pretty clear MC would have been just as hard an opponent as Puma, but MC is who Ret should have played, the fifteenth seeded player, not the winner of a straight elimination tournament.
If you had had Inctorp cast the finals, that would have been absolutely fine; I wouldn't have watched, but it's totally understandable. To go out and bring in Day9 and Tastosis, 5 casters for a 16 match event, and then dole out a handful of games per caster and decide that Inctorp 'deserved' it more than the talent you brought in to replace them is just baffling. Stand by your casters from the start, don't bait and switch.
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EPT
