Production values where quite terrible, so much dead air and silence and bad camera work thankfully the games where ok.
Needs music/atmosphere. Clear graphics not tiny text for synosis's Better stage, looked so basic and dull.
Format was quite a waste for what time it took up. Felt worse then most daily tourneys on so many levels.
Great ideas in this tourney but execution was very disappointing.
Interviews where quite quite bad, seems to be aiming for something mainstream in the execution of a lot of things but the overall feel was not SC2 feely. Homestory, or normal daily tourneys have a lot more feeling to them.
Does anyone know when they are planning to have the day1 vods up? I was hoping to see a few of the games before todays stream came back on. Probably no time now but an eta would still be good.
I'm sorry guys, Yesterday I was in the dark about what has been going as much as you guys. I am not not at the event and the people I get my information and updates from were busy all day at the event trying to fix things and running the show. Right after the event finished I passed out because I did not get any sleep the night before so I did not get the chance to talk to anyone till this morning.
Basically what happened yesterday is as follows: The night before the event started we were doing some testing and preparing the rightmost projector suffered catastrophic failure and was unusable. We immediately overnight a replacement that arrived first thing in this morning. Installation took extensive time and thus caused a hour delay to the premiere. Additionally, this last minute projector replacement meant we did not have an opportunity to extensively test the projection system. As it turns out, the venue projection fails to hook up to the stream output. As a last minute solution we placed the stream system on follow to the stream observer. There are feedbacks regarding this caused jerky camera motion, so we changed to a dedicated observer for rest of the cast. Throughout the day they also worked with some Justin.TV people(Gunrun and some others) to help optimize the stream quality and to fix the audio.
As for stream and audio interviews, the projectors there were not cooperating very well so there had to be two separate streams, One for the In-house stream and one for the online one. The audio for the in-house stream got fixed and balanced but there is something going on between the upstream and jtv stream which is causing the issues. We think the problem is something about the FMLE not liking using the AAC codec for audio on the stream output which is causing the imbalance. The crew pulled a all nighter to try to fix and improve everything. Hopefully everything will be great today and I will try to keep you guys updated more~
On July 10 2011 00:35 aristarchus wrote: [quote] No, 4 computers would be enough for a substantial speed increase. It means that the players for match 3 set up their equipment during match 2. That means less transition time. (Of course, that assumes that the player equipment setup was a limiting factor, and that there weren't other production issues that required a long wait anyway.) Yes, there will still be downtime, but it'd be substantially reduced. (Having 4 booths might not at all be reasonable expense-wise, but if you don't think it would give some speedup, you're not understanding something. And as long as it's just one match being played at a time, you don't really need a computer per player, just the 4 booths plus whatever warmup computers are needed off stage.)
4 computers wouldn't help. How do you envision this working?
2 sets of booths? What are we supposed to roll the first set of booths off the stage and roll on the next set right after so we can start immediately? Are we supposed to have 2 stages, each with booths so that we can just cut to the next stage? Do you have any idea how much it would cost to get a venue big enough and build 2 stages just for the purpose?
4 computers with 1 set of booths? We're supposed to take the first set of computers out of the booths (that takes probably 5-10 minutes), and set up another set of computers in the booths that have the next players' settings already set up? Do you have any idea how long that process would take. It would take even longer than what we do.
Did you watch Blizzcon? Were you there? Because they tried that and it didn't work.
Why not 4 booths on the one stage, seems to work great for GSL every day of the week
Because GSL is a multi-million dollar company that can afford to do that?
2 more booths than the 2 you already have is going to break your bank? doesn't sound like a sustainable business venture
GSL can afford to put 1+ million into prize pool alone in a year. We're not at the level where we can do that yet, sorry.
It's one thing if you just can't afford the two more booths. But what you said before is that they wouldn't help even if you had them... which is just wrong.
Given our stage layout, having 2 more booths wouldn't help. It would help if we had a bigger stage, but we don't.
Well what bout the fact that the players didn't start to setup their stuff until after all the preview videos were over, you could have knocked an hour or so off the cast if they were in there getting there settings done while that stuff was playing and it wouldn't have made the downtime seem as bad.
We actually plugged in all their gear while the videos were going on, except Moon, who refused to let anyone touch his mouse+keyboard.
We had several lame problems later in the day, for example... Boxer accidentally hit the power cord with his foot and shut the computer off... MC wanted a long cord for his headphones, Moon mandated that he set his stuff up himself, aLive lost internet briefly on the computer because he accidentally unplugged the ethernet cable, DarkForcE was trying to install some very specific mouse driver and was having problems, White-Ra had a broken headphone and couldn't get sound so we had to change for a new one...
You guys don't know what goes on behind the scenes
This is true.... but it seems odd that all of these things happen to you guys and not the GSL and other tourneys.
Trust me, we listen to all constructive feedback. We've made strides of improvement throughout the season, and we will do so for this event... and all future events.
Anywho. It's been nice chatting with you guys! I hope you all enjoy the event today, we've been working quite hard all night and this morning to make some changes to make things better.
On July 10 2011 01:40 xXFireandIceXx wrote: I think the BO3 isn't all that atrocious. Look at the NFL, the playoff games are BO1s and along with the Super Bowl as well. I mean, either you make it or you don't. AFter all, they are seeding the players which is supposedly going to thin out the herd, although some of the top seeded players ended up losing T.T
On July 10 2011 01:55 beat farm wrote: why are we asking for double elimination for nasl when in mlg all we do is complain about it.
People complain about the extended series, not double elimination. Personally, I agree with everything Jibba said. People need to step up or be replaced.
On July 10 2011 01:40 xXFireandIceXx wrote: I think the BO3 isn't all that atrocious. Look at the NFL, the playoff games are BO1s and along with the Super Bowl as well. I mean, either you make it or you don't. AFter all, they are seeding the players which is supposedly going to thin out the herd, although some of the top seeded players ended up losing T.T
yes but the NFL games cant be over in 10 minutes
Tru tru, but the principle is there. Some things, you don't really get second chances. If you mess up in that crucial moment, then it's really unforgiving. Personally, I would like a different format, but the format NASL is using so far isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Still sad to see Boxer and Ret go so early though.
Apart from a few audio problems and the camera that was showing the casters shaking. I think the even is really good. Fix some minor issues and NASL will be amazing, really top notch.
Also; Double Elim or atleast Bo5. But I bet if it was Bo5 people would still complain and ask for double elim so, I think the best choice would be to go for Double Elimination, it's the fairest method anyhow.
Thanks for putting on a great event overall and can't wait for season 2 after this one finishes! :D
On July 10 2011 01:55 beat farm wrote: why are we asking for double elimination for nasl when in mlg all we do is complain about it.
Because the fans of (insert random player x) always feel that their guy got screwed over by the tournament instead of his own play. There will always be bitching about the tournament format, doesn't matter if its GSL, MLG, NASL, Dreamhack, whatever.
Simple fact is that in order to win a tournament, you have to beat everyone and any seeding system has it's flaws (look at tennis). You can't make everyone happy.
Just looking at the OP, it seems like the majority of things on the list are just personal gripes as opposed to actual problems. If you're going to start a thread like this, please try to not seem so biased. The booths aren't as aesthetically appealing as they should be? You have got to be kidding me.
Anyway, the audio was the only thing that I really had a problem with, not being able to hear interviews (Squirtle's comes to mind) was definitely an issue, but I think if that could be fixed the whole production value would increase by a lot.
Just to long wait for games.. Girl's who make interviews are hot everyone knows that. But maby they need to learn nicks etc ? Camera is shaking.. camera man must drink or something..
Ps.. just someone tell Moon to next time make more banes plsss :D
On July 10 2011 00:35 aristarchus wrote: [quote] No, 4 computers would be enough for a substantial speed increase. It means that the players for match 3 set up their equipment during match 2. That means less transition time. (Of course, that assumes that the player equipment setup was a limiting factor, and that there weren't other production issues that required a long wait anyway.) Yes, there will still be downtime, but it'd be substantially reduced. (Having 4 booths might not at all be reasonable expense-wise, but if you don't think it would give some speedup, you're not understanding something. And as long as it's just one match being played at a time, you don't really need a computer per player, just the 4 booths plus whatever warmup computers are needed off stage.)
4 computers wouldn't help. How do you envision this working?
2 sets of booths? What are we supposed to roll the first set of booths off the stage and roll on the next set right after so we can start immediately? Are we supposed to have 2 stages, each with booths so that we can just cut to the next stage? Do you have any idea how much it would cost to get a venue big enough and build 2 stages just for the purpose?
4 computers with 1 set of booths? We're supposed to take the first set of computers out of the booths (that takes probably 5-10 minutes), and set up another set of computers in the booths that have the next players' settings already set up? Do you have any idea how long that process would take. It would take even longer than what we do.
Did you watch Blizzcon? Were you there? Because they tried that and it didn't work.
Why not 4 booths on the one stage, seems to work great for GSL every day of the week
Because GSL is a multi-million dollar company that can afford to do that?
2 more booths than the 2 you already have is going to break your bank? doesn't sound like a sustainable business venture
GSL can afford to put 1+ million into prize pool alone in a year. We're not at the level where we can do that yet, sorry.
It's one thing if you just can't afford the two more booths. But what you said before is that they wouldn't help even if you had them... which is just wrong.
Given our stage layout, having 2 more booths wouldn't help. It would help if we had a bigger stage, but we don't.
Well what bout the fact that the players didn't start to setup their stuff until after all the preview videos were over, you could have knocked an hour or so off the cast if they were in there getting there settings done while that stuff was playing and it wouldn't have made the downtime seem as bad.
You guys don't know what goes on behind the scenes
I am sorry but i have to comment a little on this. Maybe you guy are just misunderstood, but i always see some sort of "justification, not our fault, for us is different, etc" comments coming from you. It's not like you are doing some ground braking stuff that no one in the world knows how to do. There are tons of tournaments out there that have been doing this for years, so the "it's hard, bear with us" argument falls flat for me. We are not in the "dark" era of organising events anymore. The standard is high, especially for a pay per view (vods) event/ competition.
It is incredibly hard to make/ design a car, even a very shity one. Do the buyers actually care how hard it is to make? obviously not. They will just shit on it and go and buy another, better brand.
My point is that i do not understand the public attitude of the league. A serious company will acknowledge the short comings and promise to fix them(and fixes them ex: MLG), not ignoring them/ find excuses. It gives the impression that you are ... content... with how things are going thus far. This is what i find discouraging about NASL. It has been this way since the very first broadcast.
I know to this day incontrol must just regret ever having been excited and express his excitement about the league. That has been held against him, and the NASL by all the haters from day one. "BUT INCONTROL SAID THIS WAS GOING TO BE AWESOME!!!!" Ya, he's also said Pizza is awesome, so what. You've never talked up anything in your life? Regardless of the hype I had reasonable expectations just knowing the fact that they were basically running a 3 hour daily TV show for 9 weeks, and basically building it up from the ground level. That is not an easy task, long hours, little pay, all to try to do something cool. I never fault people when I know the effort is there. If they were lazy or didn't care it is one thing, but CLEARLY this isn't the case.
So now, to conclude my long post because I'm tired of reading about complaints the last 24 hours,stating things over and over that we all agree with, NASL agrees with and recognizes(They have listened to the viewers and their comments EVERY STEP OF THE WAY, they aren't ignoring the fans), and that I personally also hope they improve on as well, I'm going to type out a list of stuff I liked about the NASL this season :
1 - I like the league setup and the weekly games. It reminds me of a regular season of a sporting event. I could tune in when I wanted to see my favorite players or chose to not watch that day. They were generally always on time, and I feel the longer format really allowed the cream to rise to the top. I liked that if I had something to do or missed games I could see that player the next week or tune in the next day. A more relaxed viewer approach than say an MLG weekend where I'm trying to sit around the computer for 48 straight hours.
2 - I liked that the longer format allowed me to get to know some players throughout the league. There are players I became a fan of because it was fun to watch them do well week after week and hear the interviews right after. You don't get that in online tournaments or quick weekend LAN events all the time, and it was cool. I also thought the long format allowed talented players to rise to the top, and the players that knew how to prepare each week for their opponents did well and that was cool to see and hear how players prepared each week(some a lot, some not at all).
3 - I liked the pregame they did before the matches when there were players involved I wanted to hear about. It was cool to do a "pregame" event just like they do for other sports. Some people hated this, I never understood why people didn't just tune in 30 minutes after the "start" time. Everything the NASL does tries to mimic what is done in an ACTUAL sports league, if people didn't pick up on that.
4 - The last 2 weeks of the league following the playoff scenarios, who was trying to get in for next year, who was on the bubble of getting knocked out was all really cool. It made each game that didn't seem as important really matter, and again reminded me of any other sports league.
5 - I like that the playoffs is a very cutthroat winner take all system. Sorry, I don't want to see Double Elimination all the time. I want to see win and move on, lose and go home. Whether it should be BO3/5/7 etc, that is up for debate and I think has a lot to do with working within time constraints that exist. But I'm sorry, the BS over double elimination... just don't lose and it doesn't matter. How many other sports do double elimination playoffs? World cup? NFL? NBA? NHL? Maybe a cricket league somewhere? I don't feel bad for the players either who get to take an awesome trip to California, play video games, sign autographs, and chill with other pro gamers. If you were to tell me I could get a $500 stipend, have a chance to play for $50k, and go to California I'm there but I might have to put up a bit of my own cash.... Hell I'd go to that if it was a single elimination BO1 rock/paper/scissor contest.
I ALWAYS FIND IT IRONIC WHEN FANS CALL SOMETHING UNFAIR THAT THE PLAYERS KNOW ABOUT AND DON'T COMPLAIN ABOUT BEING UNFAIR. The players knew the format and have no issues with it, I think people need to get a better understanding of what unfair actually is. Unfair would be all zergs have to win 1 game to win the series, and protoss and terran have to win 3.
6 - Things they did right at the finals so far : Although the game booths need some decoration, they at least have them. Remember MLG without them? "That's just Halo..." The casters are great and there is a variety of them. Mixing up all of them that are there is great, and it was awesome they got tastosis[9] involved and didn't get lazy and just have gretorp/incontrol on stage but brought in the big hitters. I think once the mic's were fixed Anna's interviews are good, kindof reminds me of the halftime NFL sideline reporter interviews. I liked the hype-up videos before each match including their youtube entry to get into the league(SEN LOL), perhaps just cut them down a bit but the idea is pretty cool and I liked being reminded of how the players got there and who they beat throughout the league. Again this is no different than how other sports do it, where you spend the week before the finals of a sporting event hearing about who the teams beat to get there. The Darkforce games were as entertaining as any SC2 I've seen to date. Those complaining about Double Elimination, that series was as epic as it was because you knew it was a foreign player trying to send a Korean home, not just to the losers bracket. Thought that was great. It's funny because most of the BO3/Single Elimination complaint are coming from the viewers, yet the players aren't complaining about it at all. Music they had going throughout was great.
Do I think there is plenty to work on? Sure. Just go read the last pages of this thread and the first 500 of NASL Day 1. But I also think the people who are doing this are working hard, they are trying to put together something great for eSports, they have assembled great players from around the world with a sick prize pool that is there for 3 more seasons, and at some point I think just crapping on someone over and over especially when they know about it is pointless. There is good here with this league and potential, sometimes you just have to step back, take a deep breath, and be reminded of what did go well and was enjoyable because there was plenty of it. If you had the option of taking the NASL as it was over the past few months or not having it at all I know I'd rather have enjoyed watching great games, some really funny moments, and an organization that wouldn't be doing this if they didn't want to try to add to SC2 and eSports.
Just wanted to try to sprinkle some positive in the middle of everything else.
Yeh, best of 3 seemed silly at this point. Thanks for travelling from Korea and Europe guys....
The biggest suggestion I would make is introduce the players to the crowd and have them enter their booths to set up and while playing the intro videos. Then reintroduce them when its time to go. This would tighten things up big-time.
NASL, looks like its failing due to nepotism. These are the type of problems when you hire audio and production people based upon who they know and not what they know. I personally will not be paying for NASL until it gets it act together. This is an embarassment for E-sports and honestly, I think its good for tournaments with poor production to fail. NASL doesn't deserve our wellfare and should go the way of the dodo bird. The idea they can fix these problems and improve is silly, considering the problems are rooted deep in the organization itself. The audio, production and organization are just symptoms of a larger problem. My advice is don't hire your friends, hire your people based upon knowledge and experience.
On July 10 2011 01:54 Xeris wrote: Trust me, we listen to all constructive feedback. We've made strides of improvement throughout the season, and we will do so for this event... and all future events.
Anywho. It's been nice chatting with you guys! I hope you all enjoy the event today, we've been working quite hard all night and this morning to make some changes to make things better.
If you had people who knew what they were doing most of those strides wouldn't have needed to be taken. It's good that you listen to feedback and you have shown throughout the season that you do listen by some of the improvements made but the quality of the show for the group stages was just barely scraping into par after 9 weeks.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Af7oD.jpg)
everyone knows that. But maby they need to learn nicks etc ?
