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So with the Super Tournament entering the Ro8, I thought it'd be interesting to get opinions on whether the GSL should actually continue with the Super Tournament for next year or would you guys rather see another Code S/A.
I ask this because we saw a lot of Code B players making it to the Ro16 and I really feel that this is sort of detrimental to the whole GSL concept as it delays the progression of better players and rewards players who only managed to get where they are from achievements achieved in 2010, when the game was still very unrefined.
I would admit some genuinely good Code A/B players who are extremely unlucky to miss out on Code S have had their impressive moments and this actually is a really good opportunity for them to earn some big $$$, but I kind of feel that this tournament has actually been rewarding lesser skilled/past their prime players more than genuinely good up and comers in 3 ways:
1. Chance of less skilled players advancing
As we saw with a certain player today and a close miss with another, while the game is a lot less volatile, players are still quite likely to get in through cheese/one-base allins. Yes it's still more likely that the better player wins, and a cheese win is a win, but it's just really strange seeing that one guy who just advanced be there.
2. Delays the natural progression of competition skill level
Think about it, if say Leenock wins the Super Tournament and can't qualify for the next Code A (the qualifications are EXTREMELY tough) for some reason... wouldn't that be strange? If the tournament was replaced with another Code S/A season, we would see him actually have TWO chances to qualify, which is better than just one later. Meanwhile, players like Ensnare, HongUn and Trickster, who haven't impressed lately are still in Code S.
3. Deserving non-Code A/S up and comers miss out a lot
Code B players who are beastly like DongRaeGu, etc miss out on one additional chance to qualify for Code A.
When I first heard about the Super Tournament when it was first announced, I was not really agreeing with it (back when it was still 32 Code A + 32 Code S players). It just doesn't make sense for a Code A/B player to beat a Code S player and it sort of ruins the credibility of the Code S as the premier SC2 league.
Do note that my favourite player is MMA and it's great that he has a chance of winning this tournament. But I feel it's better for him to prove himself by advancing to Code S rather than winning the Super Tournament (although it has a bigger prize pool).
Another alternative for GOM would be to host the Super Tournament right at the end of the season (just before the Final tournament they have with the Top 16(?) players). That way the ranking system would give a better indication of skills.
I have always been a very vocal supporter of the Code S/A format despite a lot of criticism for it. But the Super Tournament just doesn't really make sense to me. I feel they should just get rid of it and redistribute the extra prize pool to the other GSL series or move it to the end of the year where it is more appropriate.
What do you guys think? Hopefully the GOM guys will take the feedback from this thread into consideration for next season.
Poll: What should the GSL do about the Super Tournament?Nothing wrong with it, leave it as it is. (90) 85% Move it to the end of the year before the Final Top 16 tournament (9) 8% Replace it with another Code A/S season and redistribute the additional prize money. (7) 7% 106 total votes Your vote: What should the GSL do about the Super Tournament? (Vote): Nothing wrong with it, leave it as it is.
(Vote): Replace it with another Code A/S season and redistribute the additional prize money.
(Vote): Move it to the end of the year before the Final Top 16 tournament
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The Super Tournament doesn't replace Code S/A, they're always on a two month cycle and there will be a GSL July. It's a nice change, would be a lot better if Wolf wasn't having to solo cast and most of the best players didn't get eliminated at always happens at GSL.
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Its fine, imo it gives those who were knocked to code B a chance to compete against the top dogs, or those who have had problems with up and down matches who are clearly code S material.
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I like the idea of moving to the end of the year so we get more players like DongRaeGu and less Thebest, legalmind, line, etc
Also I think performance in the GSTL should count for GSL rankings.
I think we can all be grateful that bitbybit wasn't invited to the Super Tournament though.
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After seeing TheBest play tonight, i never want to hear his name again
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I dunno that I agree with (1), there have been plenty of times when "less-skilled" players have made it out of group play in Code S.
I do think it might be nice to have Code A qualifiers still go on while the super-tournament is on, though, and just have a "double-sized" code A tournament in the next month.
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I think they should keep the super tourney, but make it so GSTL earn GSL ranking points. With GSTL being a regular 2 times a week next season, this would allow teams to field unknown but good players (=DRG) so they earn points. GOM can calculate so they earn just enough points to take the spots of inactive players like those who were ranked 64-78 for this super tourney, or just a little more for super skilled players.
This would allow the super tourney to be filled with monsters and add a lot of excitement.
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I acutally never got what the "L" in GSL is about.
There were never a real league, only tournaments. I'd really like to see a real league, preferably with teams, but single players would be nice too.
You could see much more diffrent players facing another, playing way more games than a single Bo3/5/7 hell even a Bo1 in the early stages of GSL.
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I think it's the last time we gonna see some players like TheWorst or Legalmind, because they will not get enough point for the next super tournament, so i'm fine with the actual system we just have to wait the new good players replace the bad players.
Maybe give points to the players with the GSTL can be a good idea too.
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On June 08 2011 22:15 Samhax wrote:
I think it's the lasttime we gonna see some players like TheWorst or Legalmind, because they will not get enough point for the next super tournament, so i'm fine with the actual system we just have to wait the new good players replace the bad players.
Maybe give points to the players with the GSTL can be a good idea too.
+ Show Spoiler +Somehow TheBest made it into the Round of 8.
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United States23455 Posts
There is always going to be that one guy who cheeses/all-ins/lucks into a top eight or even semifinal seed.
This time it is TheBest.
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On June 08 2011 22:16 dabom88 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 22:15 Samhax wrote:
I think it's the lasttime we gonna see some players like TheWorst or Legalmind, because they will not get enough point for the next super tournament, so i'm fine with the actual system we just have to wait the new good players replace the bad players.
Maybe give points to the players with the GSTL can be a good idea too. + Show Spoiler +Somehow TheBest made it into the Round of 8.
Yeah but i don't think he will make it to code A again, with the new comers. he just had a lucky bracket in the super tournament.
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On June 08 2011 22:16 dabom88 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2011 22:15 Samhax wrote:
I think it's the lasttime we gonna see some players like TheWorst or Legalmind, because they will not get enough point for the next super tournament, so i'm fine with the actual system we just have to wait the new good players replace the bad players.
Maybe give points to the players with the GSTL can be a good idea too. + Show Spoiler +Somehow TheBest made it into the Round of 8.
Edit double post.
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On June 08 2011 22:17 Fionn wrote:
There is always going to be that one guy who cheeses/all-ins/lucks into a top eight or even semifinal seed.
This time it is TheBest.
Hell we even had Rain cheese/all-in/luck his way into the finals. 
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On June 08 2011 22:02 Blasphemi wrote:
The Super Tournament doesn't replace Code S/A, they're always on a two month cycle and there will be a GSL July. It's a nice change, would be a lot better if Wolf wasn't having to solo cast and most of the best players didn't get eliminated at always happens at GSL.
I do agree that it's a nice change, but the way points were giving favored the players who had been in Code S because of somewhat consistent (although bad Open Season results - see LegalMind and JookTo). I dunno, I guess I prefer continuity than something different. I'd much rather see skill progression than just players leeching off their achievements 1 year ago.
Just wonder why they didn't make this tournament an Open Tournament though. Maybe seed the Top 32 GSL points players and then make the rest Open.
On June 08 2011 22:03 Benjef wrote:
Its fine, imo it gives those who were knocked to code B a chance to compete against the top dogs, or those who have had problems with up and down matches who are clearly code S material.
But if they're going to be stuck in Code A/B, it would be strange if they somehow managed to win and then disappeared completely. Like I said I'm a big MMA fan and I'm hoping he takes it, but I'd much rather see him get Code S than win this.
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I feel like this tournament could use a different format. Perhaps some group play offs at the start, or something? It's very possible for better players to get knocked out in Bo3's, also random luck with brackets may well mean not so good players advancing, which leads to some very boring games. I suppose after a while this kind of a tournament would work even with current rules (once some certain people aren't able to get an invite into it...), but I don't know.
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Feels like this tournament is being rushed.
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I'd like to see more structure with all of their tournaments in general. I feel like there are just so many events, and I think it would be better if they somehow ordered their tournaments rather than having team league, world championship, code s/a, and super tournament all scattered throughout the year. Also, having one big GSL tournament every month kind of makes the whole thing banal for me, and I'd rather have a variety of smaller tournaments played more often, with a large prize pool style GSL played several times a year, and then a really big super tournament, which might feature a loser's bracket as well so that players like MC and Bomber don't get screwed with brackets and knocked out so early ._.
Then again, this tournament style is because Gom has a monopoly on SC2 in korea, and if they can sustain this kind of production quality and prize pool every month, then I'm not really complaining too much. I dunno, it would be cool if SC2 tournament style was like Tennis, where you have a bunch of smaller events in a circuit interspersed with the Big 4 Tournaments, which are hosted by distinct venues. And then there could be a true super tournament by GOM at the end of the year, which would give better prize money to players at all the levels. hmmm just some rambling thoughts @_@
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I really haven't enjoyed Super Tournament at all but there are plenty of reasons for that not necessarily the systems fault. Still on the strength of the experience this season I'd rather watch regular code A/code S. Think about how much of a game changer it would be if the extra prize money got distributed over a year of code A.
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On June 08 2011 22:32 KimJongChill wrote:
I'd like to see more structure with all of their tournaments in general. I feel like there are just so many events, and I think it would be better if they somehow ordered their tournaments rather than having team league, world championship, code s/a, and super tournament all scattered throughout the year. Also, having one big GSL tournament every month kind of makes the whole thing banal for me, and I'd rather have a variety of smaller tournaments played more often, with a large prize pool style GSL played several times a year, and then a really big super tournament, which might feature a loser's bracket as well so that players like MC and Bomber don't get screwed with brackets and knocked out so early ._.
Then again, this tournament style is because Gom has a monopoly on SC2 in korea, and if they can sustain this kind of production quality and prize pool every month, then I'm not really complaining too much. I dunno, it would be cool if SC2 tournament style was like Tennis, where you have a bunch of smaller events in a circuit interspersed with the Big 4 Tournaments, which are hosted by distinct venues. And then there could be a true super tournament by GOM at the end of the year, which would give better prize money to players at all the levels. hmmm just some rambling thoughts @_@
The Super Tournament and the Blizzard Cup (I believe that's what they call the tournament featuring the Top 16 GSL players) I guess are the "big" tournaments which GOM has.
I dunno, I feel like the real "league" aspect of the GSL is its continuity. That's why I'm not such a big fan of the Super Tournament... but actually now that I think about it, the Super Tournament is kind of like the FA Cup to the English Premier League.
Would have made more sense if the qualifications were Open though. And just maybe seeding the Top 32.
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Groups and Seeding(as in 1 plays vs 64, 2 vs 63, etc.) can severely reduce this.
Otherwise there would always be players which get an easier path due to the random selection.
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Is this Super Tournament planned ahead of time, to be scheduled between regular season of GSL May and July? Seems kinda sudden to me. It does make more sense to hold this Super Tournament (along with its very attractive prize pool) at the end of the year or season, kinda like a Grand Finals or Superbowl.
The only thing that felt unfair is how the brackets ended up.... Alicia/MC in Ro64 and Bomber/Nestea in Ro32; while some players (past prime [TheBest] or not [MKP]) "lucked" into Ro8 on their easier brackets. I didn't study the brackets to see if it's completely random or arranged based on ranks or other statistics.
I also have no idea if players knew about their deadline to qualify for this Super Tournament, of if this tourney was sprung on them (and us) in May.
But if they are really going to make a Super Tournament where anyone regardless of rank has a chance to compete against top dogs, then I'm definitely in favor of open qualifications. Nothing based on previous GSL achievement 10 years ago or whatnot. There's really no way of making it 100% fair though. Like Fionn said, there is always going to be that one guy who cheeses/all-ins/lucks into a top eight or even semifinals.
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imho the super tournament is great. It allows for up n' coming players to duke it out with players above them without having to go through several seasons of code s and a.
The attitude that some players are more deserving coz of some percieved difference in skill and thus should get to code s quicker, and hence the super tournament is more a hindrance, is imho silly. They could put the super tournament att he end of the year but you would still have this opininon carried by people and a post like this done because of some player/players still left in that shouldnt deserve the shot at making big money. Sure there are some players in here whom we havent heard of since s2 or s1 even but they went out fast and the one who didnt had actually improved to such an extent that he deserved to move on(or I'm thinking of another tournament all together, hopefully I'm not  ). So that's basically down to opinion if it's too early to have this tournament or not.
1. The player advancing today that sort of didnt deserve it(if you so wanna put it) he still played better in the end. His opponent made a misstake or two which cost him the game. It's as simple as that. I wanted him to win but seeing how he played I actually didnt think he deserved it. In the end he didnt have what it takes to be the champion. If someone wanna argue that the advancing opponent didnt either well then that's a whole different problem isnt it?
2. If leenock were to win the super tournament but didnt qualify for code a next season then that is more telling of his opponent and the raise in skill. nothing strange about it, the game progresses over time. Leenock wouldnt have had two chances to qualify either since the super tournament isnt replacing a code a/s season and personally I wouldnt want one either, there are plenty of them and having the super tournament feels fresh(great players in code a that actually gets to play someone in code s).
Regarding having players in Code S whom you dont think deserves it they performed when it mattered(up n down) and if you watched those games objectively they played better than their opponents(maybe not by much though). Though that might be generalizing, it's more or less true for each and everyone currently in code s.
3. Here I'll be addressing each paragraph.
3.1 The amount of code a/s seasons per year is fixed and as such dongraegu wouldnt have gotten in earlier. If not the super tournament then something else would be taking up this
slot. Of course you could be of the opinion that we should have more seasons of code a/s but that's not what the discussion is about.
3.2 If a code A/B player beats someone in Code S then that is more telling of the player in the lower league and just how good he/she is. If the player in Code S is bad then we would already be aware of it and not something that would change our perception of the current state of code s.
3.3 If my favorite player would win I'd be all "fuck yeah, he won!! good times" not think that he should have gone through code s first. That's really arbitrary and has nothing to do with it since the super tournament is all about players skill getting them money not about what divisions they are placed in and hence what they "deserve" to win.
3.4 Seeing how the GSL goes on and on you would have the super tournament suspended indefinitely. Having it now or in 6 months sure it would give you less of these player we havent heard of in a looong time but in the end that's still very much about opinion than fact and whom deserves to be in it and who doesnt(again with the player from a long time ago having improved). Besides, wouldnt a super tournament and then a Finals tournament directly after be sort of repetitive? 
3.5 And this is what it basically boils down to, you think the money could be better spent on the regular seasons and the GSL Super Tournament in its current state(the players with their points) maybe doesnt give us something that quite lives up to its name. Again, it's opinion and I disagree because overall we have been given good or great games(with some exceptions) with no one player having made it this far(ro16) without actually deserving it based on how they have performed(and todays game if anything proves that neither player deserved to go through, but that's not how it works).
Edit: wall of text, sorry about that. Also just wanna say I'm not angry or anything if I manage to come across that way.
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I dont know, in theory the super tournament sounds great. Who wouldn't want the top 64 players rather than 2 sets of 32 where you know many in code A could beat the code S. However in reality, I found that there are a lot less great games. When they have the 2 leagues going I find that I can watch all of Code S, and the top 16 and onward of Code A. With the super tournament, I cant believe their already in the top 16. I definitely dont feel as if those are the top 16 players that entered the tournament. And the other thing is that if a Code A player does well right now, they wont get to move to Code S. And those Code S players out in the first round or two wont have to go down.
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I don't see a problem with it. I can see where you're coming from with some players not really deserving to be in this tournament, but at the same time we've seen some good play from players like jookTo who would otherwise be long forgotten.
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On June 08 2011 22:13 Kafkaesk wrote:
I acutally never got what the "L" in GSL is about.
There were never a real league, only tournaments. I'd really like to see a real league, preferably with teams, but single players would be nice too.
You could see much more diffrent players facing another, playing way more games than a single Bo3/5/7 hell even a Bo1 in the early stages of GSL.
may i acquaint you with OSL and MSL?
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Blame the game. Ever wonder why players like anypro, rain,hongun,ensnare can stay so long in Code S ? Same happens here, TheBest,Maka,Line,Leenock in ro8 ? I Dont Even
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End of the year would be best I think, so that there's only players who have done well over the course of one whole year. (Like MLG does it)
Doing it after only 3 Code A/Code S seasons made it so that players who got to code S in jan and then fell out of the league asap still got in.
IIrc the original plan was to hold it in september, I wonder why that was changed.
EDIT: Ah nvm, got confused with WC which was originally to be held in september.
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I have to say, as a protoss player, I liked the super tournament for the fact that I would get a sneak peak at players like Bomber, whom I think will win a GSL title in the future. I dont care about all the credibility concerns or the fact that it takes away from another season.
My favorite GOM products so far, in order:
1) GSL world championships
2) GSTL
3) Up and Down matches
4) Code S
5) Super tournament
I wish there was more racial balance in this super tournament, but you cant really control that and how do you even force fix racial distribution in certain tournaments when North American terrans are literally terrible and Korean terrans are unbelievably awesome.... What do you do?
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Favorite players are always going to be knocked out and eliminated, you're just going to have to stomach it and move on. I actually feel like the supertournament gives a chance for lower players to showcase their skills
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On June 08 2011 22:26 Zombie_Velociraptor wrote:
I feel like this tournament could use a different format. Perhaps some group play offs at the start, or something? It's very possible for better players to get knocked out in Bo3's, also random luck with brackets may well mean not so good players advancing, which leads to some very boring games. I suppose after a while this kind of a tournament would work even with current rules (once some certain people aren't able to get an invite into it...), but I don't know.
What? Its very possible for better players to get knocked out in best of 3's and you think Group play is the solution?
I feel that Group play provides much more randomness (unless you make each series between players Best of 3's rather than Bo1's) And to back up my point, i refer you to GSL March. most of the Better players didn't come out of group stages.
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Haven't followed it, but I prefer tournaments with clear brackets such as ST. Don't even bother with code S/A any longer, it's such a mess and basically a glorified endless qualifier, which really doesn't make me interested. Give me a standard tournament with open qualifiers more like MSL/OSL and maybe I'll gain some interest again, it's far easier to follow.
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Actually, I'll be happy if they just replace the Code A/S thing with Super Tournament format every season (with normal prize money of course). Because if anything, the Super Tournament showed that there isn't much of a difference between Code S players and Code A players (and some really good Code B players as well).
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On June 08 2011 22:01 pdd wrote:
I ask this because we saw a lot of Code B players making it to the Ro16 and I really feel that this is sort of detrimental to the whole GSL concept as it delays the progression of better players and rewards players who only managed to get where they are from achievements achieved in 2010, when the game was still very unrefined.
What does a player in Code B making it to Ro16 have to do delaying progression of better players? Should GSL wipe out everything that happened in 2010? At what point was there adequate skill involved in GSL?
I would admit some genuinely good Code A/B players who are extremely unlucky to miss out on Code S have had their impressive moments and this actually is a really good opportunity for them to earn some big $$$, but I kind of feel that this tournament has actually been rewarding lesser skilled/past their prime players more than genuinely good up and comers in 3 ways:
1. Chance of less skilled players advancing
As we saw with a certain player today and a close miss with another, while the game is a lot less volatile, players are still quite likely to get in through cheese/one-base allins. Yes it's still more likely that the better player wins, and a cheese win is a win, but it's just really strange seeing that one guy who just advanced be there.
How is cheese/one-base play exclusive to this tournament? How is this specific tournament rewarding these so called "inferior" players. It just sounds like your upset that someone you didn't like advanced as far as they did.
2. Delays the natural progression of competition skill level
Think about it, if say Leenock wins the Super Tournament and can't qualify for the next Code A (the qualifications are EXTREMELY tough) for some reason... wouldn't that be strange? If the tournament was replaced with another Code S/A season, we would see him actually have TWO chances to qualify, which is better than just one later.
How is this strange at all? This tournament was designed around having a bigger prize pool and a wider range of participants as it's selling point. So far Code S/A seasons are every other month. The last Code S/A was in May so there's no guarantee that there even would be another on in June.
Meanwhile, players like Ensnare, HongUn and Trickster, who haven't impressed lately are still in Code S.
What? This has nothing to do with what you just said but fuck it, just throw it out there. In fact, that entire paragraph is a clusterfuckmess. (Funny side-note: Leenock is one of those players this Super Tournament is "unfairly rewarding". Most of his success game from the 2nd GSL Open Season and since then he's slipped from Code S to Code A to finally Code B.)
3. Deserving non-Code A/S up and comers miss out a lot
Code B players who are beastly like DongRaeGu, etc miss out on one additional chance to qualify for Code A.
Isn't this the same point you were trying to make two sentences ago????
When I first heard about the Super Tournament when it was first announced, I was not really agreeing with it (back when it was still 32 Code A + 32 Code S players). It just doesn't make sense for a Code A/B player to beat a Code S player and it sort of ruins the credibility of the Code S as the premier SC2 league.
HUH??? If the Super Tournament is ruining the credibility of Code S then wouldn't the Up and Down portion of Code S/A tournaments must be straight up skull-fucking it.
Do note that my favourite player is MMA and it's great that he has a chance of winning this tournament. But I feel it's better for him to prove himself by advancing to Code S rather than winning the Super Tournament (although it has a bigger prize pool).
To advance to Code S, MMA would have to beat a Code S player. A Code A player beating a Code S player would ruin the league's credibility. How is MMA suppose to prove himself in a league with no credibility??!!?
--rest of post--
What do you guys think? Hopefully the GOM guys will take the feedback from this thread into consideration for next season.
I think you should consider organizing your thoughts before vomiting them out in thread. I really wanted to say more in response to your post but my brain just wasn't able to process anything you've typed out. I hope the GOM guys don't read your post unless they want to get mindfucked in a bad way.
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EPT
