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Archons have generally been a slightly weak unit for their cost. This was a conscious design decision that we made since we wanted Morph to Archon to be a "recycle" ability
As game designers, they can choose between two scenarios:
1. The archon is a unit you might want to make, so you as the player have to decide whether you want to merge one now or keep your templar around for later.
2. The archon is kinda bad, so you really don't want to make them until there's nothing left to do with your templar.
Blizzard consciously chose scenario #2 . . .
the relationship between the zealot- and archon-based strategies vs. the more standard robo-tech builds were proving to be fun
But giving the player a meaningful choice turned out to make the game fun.
We feel ghost EMP is a vital tool at the highest skill levels, and we didn’t like how players had to choose between ghosts or something else
If EMP is so vital, why does anyone choose anything else :o
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I'm a protoss player and I played some games against a terran that went mass thors frequently and when i say mass, i mean MASS!...It is quite strong. Like 20+ thors and and maybe a couple of marines and vikings. He would just sit on 2 base and deny scouting by putting up turrets around his base, then just roll out with this unstoppable army, just stomping everything in its way. It was quite funny haha.
The only thing that i found to work quite effectively was zealot/dark templar, but you have to have a ton of zealots and dts to stop this army, thors with strike cannon just absolutely destroy immortals/colossi and even own phoenix and void rays with repair support. Even with zealot dark templar compositions, you also have to have a ton of gateways to reinforce your army en masse because thors just have insane dps and dont die easily.
IMO the thor change was necessary and very welcome.
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a terran can die to one banshee that will simply kill all the marines that are being build lol. Atleast a queen can deal damage to a banshee without a 100/100 upgrade from a tech lab  .
And if you die to 4 phoenix as a zerg you probably only got 1 queen, which is like a terran that only got 2 marines XD.
Well zerg doesn't seem to aprreciate what they can do, i guess its okay to tell Blizzard that they should allow terran and toss to be able to produce workers from raks and gates, and remove that for the zerg, so they can produce 1 worker per hatch and can use the larva for fighting units only. So they never have to decide if they want to build workers or not. I would like that as a terran . Though i would probably die alot to the super production of the zerg XD
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On May 14 2011 01:50 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 01:39 Effay wrote:On May 14 2011 01:37 TimeSpiral wrote:On May 14 2011 01:34 TheGreenBee wrote: If a zerg player is totally unprepared, we don't mind them just outright losing the game. I find something terribly wrong with this statement.. Why? That's a pretty obvious and fundamental principal. It's a good principle except it's basically impossible for zerg to be properly prepared without sacrificing significant amounts of economy. Another myth ... If your opponent launches a potentially killing-blow attack, and you are "totally unprepared" then you losing the game outright is an acceptable and probable outcome. This principle is fundamental in that it affects everyone who plays the game, regardless of race. I remember IdrA during a recent SotG asking "what is the all-purpose Zerg defense for early game?" and when he got his response, from Day9, he rejected it. To put it simply, hatchery tech. To put it even more simply, and to specifically address anti-air, Queens & Spores. Zerg essentially starts the game with the ability to produce a larva and gas independent all-purpose attack macro caster unit. Stop complaining. People think that Terran and Protoss just haphazardly build marines and stalkers in early game. Give your opponents a little bit of credit, and respect. Each unit is built for a reason. If you surprise Terran or Protoss with a beefy air attack you can cause major damage or outright win the game. A random, or paltry number of Marines and Stalkers will not cut it.
Except air attacks are not the only things that kill zergs outright though. There are several builds in ZvT that will kill the zerg outright if unprepared, all requiring extremely different defenses. Air builds are just one of several all-in possibilities that terrans can do. Without scouting, there is really no way to play safe without falling economically behind dramatically.
Yes Queens are great, but there if I make a bunch of queens as a zerg player, are you really scared of any kind of attack anytime soon? No, they completely give up map control and any threat of attack
Your statements do not address the issue IdrA was talking about.
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I wish they stop trying to eliminate strategies and forcing certain compositions in strategies. Just let the players come up with strategies and counter strategies.
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On May 13 2011 22:24 XenoX101 wrote:
Guys this isn't supreme commander, mass thor shouldn't be as viable a strat as it was before. Besides, you can still go mass thor, it's just an appropriately risky strat now rather than a braindead "lets mass tier 3" with an insta hard counter to its hard counter immortals.
if it was supreme commander all matchups would involve only marines, marauders, reapers, zerglings, banelings, roaches, zealots, sentries and stalkers unless the game went on past 20 minutes.
(ex-supcom player here )
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As a side note, we don't feel the same way about spine crawlers, as there are being plenty of other anti-ground units zerg players can use along with the spine crawlers from the beginning of the game.
hahaha omg that just made me laugh sooo hard ..........
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On May 14 2011 02:29 butter wrote:
If EMP is so vital, why does anyone choose anything else :o
Because ghosts are very gas intensive. If a Terran wanted a ghost, they would not be able to afford say, a raven or a tank. This makes it very difficult to determine how you want your unit composition to look like because of the limited resources. While EMP is vital, at least in TvP, it's not something you want to over produce because then you can't finish the army due to lacking in your main army but at the same time you want enough to be able to do maximum damage. Comparing this to archons, it's more of a matter of deciding to make the archon or not after you've already spent the resources on templar.
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On May 14 2011 02:44 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 01:50 TimeSpiral wrote:On May 14 2011 01:39 Effay wrote:On May 14 2011 01:37 TimeSpiral wrote:On May 14 2011 01:34 TheGreenBee wrote: If a zerg player is totally unprepared, we don't mind them just outright losing the game. I find something terribly wrong with this statement.. Why? That's a pretty obvious and fundamental principal. It's a good principle except it's basically impossible for zerg to be properly prepared without sacrificing significant amounts of economy. Another myth ... If your opponent launches a potentially killing-blow attack, and you are "totally unprepared" then you losing the game outright is an acceptable and probable outcome. This principle is fundamental in that it affects everyone who plays the game, regardless of race. I remember IdrA during a recent SotG asking "what is the all-purpose Zerg defense for early game?" and when he got his response, from Day9, he rejected it. To put it simply, hatchery tech. To put it even more simply, and to specifically address anti-air, Queens & Spores. Zerg essentially starts the game with the ability to produce a larva and gas independent all-purpose attack macro caster unit. Stop complaining. People think that Terran and Protoss just haphazardly build marines and stalkers in early game. Give your opponents a little bit of credit, and respect. Each unit is built for a reason. If you surprise Terran or Protoss with a beefy air attack you can cause major damage or outright win the game. A random, or paltry number of Marines and Stalkers will not cut it. Except air attacks are not the only things that kill zergs outright though. There are several builds in ZvT that will kill the zerg outright if unprepared, all requiring extremely different defenses. Air builds are just one of several all-in possibilities that terrans can do. Without scouting, there is really no way to play safe without falling economically behind dramatically. Yes Queens are great, but there if I make a bunch of queens as a zerg player, are you really scared of any kind of attack anytime soon? No, they completely give up map control and any threat of attack Your statements do not address the issue IdrA was talking about.
You can't be greedy... you can't have it all. You can't be aggressive AND be safe AND have the econ advantage at the same time. You have to give up at least one of those things. Zerg players want all three. Build queens and you get safety and economy. Two out of the three is pretty good.
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On May 14 2011 02:44 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 01:50 TimeSpiral wrote:On May 14 2011 01:39 Effay wrote:On May 14 2011 01:37 TimeSpiral wrote:On May 14 2011 01:34 TheGreenBee wrote: If a zerg player is totally unprepared, we don't mind them just outright losing the game. I find something terribly wrong with this statement.. Why? That's a pretty obvious and fundamental principal. It's a good principle except it's basically impossible for zerg to be properly prepared without sacrificing significant amounts of economy. Another myth ... If your opponent launches a potentially killing-blow attack, and you are "totally unprepared" then you losing the game outright is an acceptable and probable outcome. This principle is fundamental in that it affects everyone who plays the game, regardless of race. I remember IdrA during a recent SotG asking "what is the all-purpose Zerg defense for early game?" and when he got his response, from Day9, he rejected it. To put it simply, hatchery tech. To put it even more simply, and to specifically address anti-air, Queens & Spores. Zerg essentially starts the game with the ability to produce a larva and gas independent all-purpose attack macro caster unit. Stop complaining. People think that Terran and Protoss just haphazardly build marines and stalkers in early game. Give your opponents a little bit of credit, and respect. Each unit is built for a reason. If you surprise Terran or Protoss with a beefy air attack you can cause major damage or outright win the game. A random, or paltry number of Marines and Stalkers will not cut it. Except air attacks are not the only things that kill zergs outright though. There are several builds in ZvT that will kill the zerg outright if unprepared, all requiring extremely different defenses. Air builds are just one of several all-in possibilities that terrans can do. Without scouting, there is really no way to play safe without falling economically behind dramatically. Yes Queens are great, but there if I make a bunch of queens as a zerg player, are you really scared of any kind of attack anytime soon? No, they completely give up map control and any threat of attack Your statements do not address the issue IdrA was talking about.
Exactly what are these buids though?
Hellion- Build Queens,Spread Creep
Air Atk- Build Queens,Spread Creep
Drop-Build Queens,Spread Creep
AnyType of Frontal attack- Roaches and Lings
And Zerg isn't the only race that has to deal with this crap. Every Race does. Its only that people don't want to Build Queens,Spread Creep. They get 1 queen per hatch and to them its the end of the line. I see so many Zergs scout an air attack and only stick to 1 queen. I remember a game with dimaga he scouted an air attack. And all he did was Build Queens and Drone, Queens and drones.
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On May 14 2011 03:02 randplaty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 02:44 DoubleReed wrote:On May 14 2011 01:50 TimeSpiral wrote:On May 14 2011 01:39 Effay wrote:On May 14 2011 01:37 TimeSpiral wrote:On May 14 2011 01:34 TheGreenBee wrote: If a zerg player is totally unprepared, we don't mind them just outright losing the game. I find something terribly wrong with this statement.. Why? That's a pretty obvious and fundamental principal. It's a good principle except it's basically impossible for zerg to be properly prepared without sacrificing significant amounts of economy. Another myth ... If your opponent launches a potentially killing-blow attack, and you are "totally unprepared" then you losing the game outright is an acceptable and probable outcome. This principle is fundamental in that it affects everyone who plays the game, regardless of race. I remember IdrA during a recent SotG asking "what is the all-purpose Zerg defense for early game?" and when he got his response, from Day9, he rejected it. To put it simply, hatchery tech. To put it even more simply, and to specifically address anti-air, Queens & Spores. Zerg essentially starts the game with the ability to produce a larva and gas independent all-purpose attack macro caster unit. Stop complaining. People think that Terran and Protoss just haphazardly build marines and stalkers in early game. Give your opponents a little bit of credit, and respect. Each unit is built for a reason. If you surprise Terran or Protoss with a beefy air attack you can cause major damage or outright win the game. A random, or paltry number of Marines and Stalkers will not cut it. Except air attacks are not the only things that kill zergs outright though. There are several builds in ZvT that will kill the zerg outright if unprepared, all requiring extremely different defenses. Air builds are just one of several all-in possibilities that terrans can do. Without scouting, there is really no way to play safe without falling economically behind dramatically. Yes Queens are great, but there if I make a bunch of queens as a zerg player, are you really scared of any kind of attack anytime soon? No, they completely give up map control and any threat of attack Your statements do not address the issue IdrA was talking about. You can't be greedy... you can't have it all. You can't be aggressive AND be safe AND have the econ advantage at the same time. You have to give up at least one of those things. Zerg players want all three. Build queens and you get safety and economy. Two out of the three is pretty good.
You read my mind. This exactly. Zergs want all three. Sadly you can only have 2.
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On May 14 2011 03:02 randplaty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 02:44 DoubleReed wrote:On May 14 2011 01:50 TimeSpiral wrote:On May 14 2011 01:39 Effay wrote:On May 14 2011 01:37 TimeSpiral wrote:On May 14 2011 01:34 TheGreenBee wrote: If a zerg player is totally unprepared, we don't mind them just outright losing the game. I find something terribly wrong with this statement.. Why? That's a pretty obvious and fundamental principal. It's a good principle except it's basically impossible for zerg to be properly prepared without sacrificing significant amounts of economy. Another myth ... If your opponent launches a potentially killing-blow attack, and you are "totally unprepared" then you losing the game outright is an acceptable and probable outcome. This principle is fundamental in that it affects everyone who plays the game, regardless of race. I remember IdrA during a recent SotG asking "what is the all-purpose Zerg defense for early game?" and when he got his response, from Day9, he rejected it. To put it simply, hatchery tech. To put it even more simply, and to specifically address anti-air, Queens & Spores. Zerg essentially starts the game with the ability to produce a larva and gas independent all-purpose attack macro caster unit. Stop complaining. People think that Terran and Protoss just haphazardly build marines and stalkers in early game. Give your opponents a little bit of credit, and respect. Each unit is built for a reason. If you surprise Terran or Protoss with a beefy air attack you can cause major damage or outright win the game. A random, or paltry number of Marines and Stalkers will not cut it. Except air attacks are not the only things that kill zergs outright though. There are several builds in ZvT that will kill the zerg outright if unprepared, all requiring extremely different defenses. Air builds are just one of several all-in possibilities that terrans can do. Without scouting, there is really no way to play safe without falling economically behind dramatically. Yes Queens are great, but there if I make a bunch of queens as a zerg player, are you really scared of any kind of attack anytime soon? No, they completely give up map control and any threat of attack Your statements do not address the issue IdrA was talking about. You can't be greedy... you can't have it all. You can't be aggressive AND be safe AND have the econ advantage at the same time. You have to give up at least one of those things. Zerg players want all three. Build queens and you get safety and economy. Two out of the three is pretty good.
The zerg responses in this thread are pretty hilarious.
WHAT!? WE'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO LOSE NO MATTER WHAT! YOU ARE RIDICULOUS BLIZZARD LOLOLOLOLOL.
I'm not sure if it's the Idra-ness rubbing off on them or worse.
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On May 14 2011 03:02 randplaty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 02:44 DoubleReed wrote:On May 14 2011 01:50 TimeSpiral wrote:On May 14 2011 01:39 Effay wrote:On May 14 2011 01:37 TimeSpiral wrote:On May 14 2011 01:34 TheGreenBee wrote: If a zerg player is totally unprepared, we don't mind them just outright losing the game. I find something terribly wrong with this statement.. Why? That's a pretty obvious and fundamental principal. It's a good principle except it's basically impossible for zerg to be properly prepared without sacrificing significant amounts of economy. Another myth ... If your opponent launches a potentially killing-blow attack, and you are "totally unprepared" then you losing the game outright is an acceptable and probable outcome. This principle is fundamental in that it affects everyone who plays the game, regardless of race. I remember IdrA during a recent SotG asking "what is the all-purpose Zerg defense for early game?" and when he got his response, from Day9, he rejected it. To put it simply, hatchery tech. To put it even more simply, and to specifically address anti-air, Queens & Spores. Zerg essentially starts the game with the ability to produce a larva and gas independent all-purpose attack macro caster unit. Stop complaining. People think that Terran and Protoss just haphazardly build marines and stalkers in early game. Give your opponents a little bit of credit, and respect. Each unit is built for a reason. If you surprise Terran or Protoss with a beefy air attack you can cause major damage or outright win the game. A random, or paltry number of Marines and Stalkers will not cut it. Except air attacks are not the only things that kill zergs outright though. There are several builds in ZvT that will kill the zerg outright if unprepared, all requiring extremely different defenses. Air builds are just one of several all-in possibilities that terrans can do. Without scouting, there is really no way to play safe without falling economically behind dramatically. Yes Queens are great, but there if I make a bunch of queens as a zerg player, are you really scared of any kind of attack anytime soon? No, they completely give up map control and any threat of attack Your statements do not address the issue IdrA was talking about. You can't be greedy... you can't have it all. You can't be aggressive AND be safe AND have the econ advantage at the same time. You have to give up at least one of those things. Zerg players want all three. Build queens and you get safety and economy. Two out of the three is pretty good.
but right now, if we choose safety (spine crawlers, queens) and possibility of aggression (zergling speed), we end up with an econ disadvantage... if we choose safety and econ (spanishiwa style) then we get out-econ'd by greedy players, and if we choose econ and possibility of aggression (no spines, less queens, no blind units, zergling speed) then we have no safety and die to allins. and since no race has good scouting atm we can't even choose in an educated manner, we have to blind guess which two we need.
zergs dont want a "gimme an advantage in everything build" we want a "allow me to stay even with my opponent without taking huge risks" build and that build currently doesn't exist.
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On May 14 2011 03:02 randplaty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 02:44 DoubleReed wrote:On May 14 2011 01:50 TimeSpiral wrote:On May 14 2011 01:39 Effay wrote:On May 14 2011 01:37 TimeSpiral wrote:On May 14 2011 01:34 TheGreenBee wrote: If a zerg player is totally unprepared, we don't mind them just outright losing the game. I find something terribly wrong with this statement.. Why? That's a pretty obvious and fundamental principal. It's a good principle except it's basically impossible for zerg to be properly prepared without sacrificing significant amounts of economy. Another myth ... If your opponent launches a potentially killing-blow attack, and you are "totally unprepared" then you losing the game outright is an acceptable and probable outcome. This principle is fundamental in that it affects everyone who plays the game, regardless of race. I remember IdrA during a recent SotG asking "what is the all-purpose Zerg defense for early game?" and when he got his response, from Day9, he rejected it. To put it simply, hatchery tech. To put it even more simply, and to specifically address anti-air, Queens & Spores. Zerg essentially starts the game with the ability to produce a larva and gas independent all-purpose attack macro caster unit. Stop complaining. People think that Terran and Protoss just haphazardly build marines and stalkers in early game. Give your opponents a little bit of credit, and respect. Each unit is built for a reason. If you surprise Terran or Protoss with a beefy air attack you can cause major damage or outright win the game. A random, or paltry number of Marines and Stalkers will not cut it. Except air attacks are not the only things that kill zergs outright though. There are several builds in ZvT that will kill the zerg outright if unprepared, all requiring extremely different defenses. Air builds are just one of several all-in possibilities that terrans can do. Without scouting, there is really no way to play safe without falling economically behind dramatically. Yes Queens are great, but there if I make a bunch of queens as a zerg player, are you really scared of any kind of attack anytime soon? No, they completely give up map control and any threat of attack Your statements do not address the issue IdrA was talking about. You can't be greedy... you can't have it all. You can't be aggressive AND be safe AND have the econ advantage at the same time. You have to give up at least one of those things. Zerg players want all three. Build queens and you get safety and economy. Two out of the three is pretty good.
You do not get economy from building lots of Queens. Spanishiwa is weak to economic play. You're building lots of all-purpose defense. It sounds to me like you have to give up both economy and aggression for safety...
On May 14 2011 03:07 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 02:44 DoubleReed wrote:On May 14 2011 01:50 TimeSpiral wrote:On May 14 2011 01:39 Effay wrote:On May 14 2011 01:37 TimeSpiral wrote:On May 14 2011 01:34 TheGreenBee wrote: If a zerg player is totally unprepared, we don't mind them just outright losing the game. I find something terribly wrong with this statement.. Why? That's a pretty obvious and fundamental principal. It's a good principle except it's basically impossible for zerg to be properly prepared without sacrificing significant amounts of economy. Another myth ... If your opponent launches a potentially killing-blow attack, and you are "totally unprepared" then you losing the game outright is an acceptable and probable outcome. This principle is fundamental in that it affects everyone who plays the game, regardless of race. I remember IdrA during a recent SotG asking "what is the all-purpose Zerg defense for early game?" and when he got his response, from Day9, he rejected it. To put it simply, hatchery tech. To put it even more simply, and to specifically address anti-air, Queens & Spores. Zerg essentially starts the game with the ability to produce a larva and gas independent all-purpose attack macro caster unit. Stop complaining. People think that Terran and Protoss just haphazardly build marines and stalkers in early game. Give your opponents a little bit of credit, and respect. Each unit is built for a reason. If you surprise Terran or Protoss with a beefy air attack you can cause major damage or outright win the game. A random, or paltry number of Marines and Stalkers will not cut it. Except air attacks are not the only things that kill zergs outright though. There are several builds in ZvT that will kill the zerg outright if unprepared, all requiring extremely different defenses. Air builds are just one of several all-in possibilities that terrans can do. Without scouting, there is really no way to play safe without falling economically behind dramatically. Yes Queens are great, but there if I make a bunch of queens as a zerg player, are you really scared of any kind of attack anytime soon? No, they completely give up map control and any threat of attack Your statements do not address the issue IdrA was talking about. Exactly what are these buids though? Hellion- Build Queens,Spread Creep Air Atk- Build Queens,Spread Creep Drop-Build Queens,Spread Creep AnyType of Frontal attack- Roaches and Lings And Zerg isn't the only race that has to deal with this crap. Every Race does. Its only that people don't want to Build Queens,Spread Creep. They get 1 queen per hatch and to them its the end of the line. I see so many Zergs scout an air attack and only stick to 1 queen. I remember a game with dimaga he scouted an air attack. And all he did was Build Queens and Drone, Queens and drones.
Bio all-ins: Banelings, Zerglings, and Spinecrawler support
Air/Cloak: Queens, Sporecrawlers
Hellions and Marine/Hellions: Queens, Roaches, Spinecrawlers
Marauder/Hellion: Roach/Ling/Bling, Spinecrawler support
Fast Medivac: Queens, Roaches, Zerglings
Economy: Drones
Why would zergs have an issue with building queens and spreading creep? Where did you get that idea? Just because there are bad zerg players doesn't mean anything.
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On May 14 2011 03:07 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 02:44 DoubleReed wrote:On May 14 2011 01:50 TimeSpiral wrote:On May 14 2011 01:39 Effay wrote:On May 14 2011 01:37 TimeSpiral wrote:On May 14 2011 01:34 TheGreenBee wrote: If a zerg player is totally unprepared, we don't mind them just outright losing the game. I find something terribly wrong with this statement.. Why? That's a pretty obvious and fundamental principal. It's a good principle except it's basically impossible for zerg to be properly prepared without sacrificing significant amounts of economy. Another myth ... If your opponent launches a potentially killing-blow attack, and you are "totally unprepared" then you losing the game outright is an acceptable and probable outcome. This principle is fundamental in that it affects everyone who plays the game, regardless of race. I remember IdrA during a recent SotG asking "what is the all-purpose Zerg defense for early game?" and when he got his response, from Day9, he rejected it. To put it simply, hatchery tech. To put it even more simply, and to specifically address anti-air, Queens & Spores. Zerg essentially starts the game with the ability to produce a larva and gas independent all-purpose attack macro caster unit. Stop complaining. People think that Terran and Protoss just haphazardly build marines and stalkers in early game. Give your opponents a little bit of credit, and respect. Each unit is built for a reason. If you surprise Terran or Protoss with a beefy air attack you can cause major damage or outright win the game. A random, or paltry number of Marines and Stalkers will not cut it. Except air attacks are not the only things that kill zergs outright though. There are several builds in ZvT that will kill the zerg outright if unprepared, all requiring extremely different defenses. Air builds are just one of several all-in possibilities that terrans can do. Without scouting, there is really no way to play safe without falling economically behind dramatically. Yes Queens are great, but there if I make a bunch of queens as a zerg player, are you really scared of any kind of attack anytime soon? No, they completely give up map control and any threat of attack Your statements do not address the issue IdrA was talking about. Exactly what are these buids though? Hellion- Build Queens,Spread Creep Air Atk- Build Queens,Spread Creep Drop-Build Queens,Spread Creep AnyType of Frontal attack- Roaches and Lings And Zerg isn't the only race that has to deal with this crap. Every Race does. Its only that people don't want to Build Queens,Spread Creep. They get 1 queen per hatch and to them its the end of the line. I see so many Zergs scout an air attack and only stick to 1 queen. I remember a game with dimaga he scouted an air attack. And all he did was Build Queens and Drone, Queens and drones.
1rax expand
2rax bunker rush
2rax bitbybit
6rax allin
blueflame hellion-marauder allin
2port banshee
1port cloak banshee
mass blueflame hellion
bfhellion drop
marauder marine stim allin
marine hellion allin
And thats just terran.
Granted, if I scout gas , I just build queens and banelings. Because banelings deal well with marines and queens + spinecrawlers deal well with banshees and hellions. So thats kind of a 'general' safe opening.
I do not mind blizzard saying that I should outright lose if I am completely caught with my pants down. Its been that way since broodwar. Its just that as zerg you encounter those a lot more than terran or protoss, which makes the race frustrating to play.
There is no big problem earlygame in ZvT ( if you don't count close positions and bunkered ramps ). Its ZvP thats hard to adjust to even as a masters zerg.
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On May 14 2011 02:44 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 01:50 TimeSpiral wrote:On May 14 2011 01:39 Effay wrote:On May 14 2011 01:37 TimeSpiral wrote:On May 14 2011 01:34 TheGreenBee wrote: If a zerg player is totally unprepared, we don't mind them just outright losing the game. I find something terribly wrong with this statement.. Why? That's a pretty obvious and fundamental principal. It's a good principle except it's basically impossible for zerg to be properly prepared without sacrificing significant amounts of economy. Another myth ... If your opponent launches a potentially killing-blow attack, and you are "totally unprepared" then you losing the game outright is an acceptable and probable outcome. This principle is fundamental in that it affects everyone who plays the game, regardless of race. I remember IdrA during a recent SotG asking "what is the all-purpose Zerg defense for early game?" and when he got his response, from Day9, he rejected it. To put it simply, hatchery tech. To put it even more simply, and to specifically address anti-air, Queens & Spores. Zerg essentially starts the game with the ability to produce a larva and gas independent all-purpose attack macro caster unit. Stop complaining. People think that Terran and Protoss just haphazardly build marines and stalkers in early game. Give your opponents a little bit of credit, and respect. Each unit is built for a reason. If you surprise Terran or Protoss with a beefy air attack you can cause major damage or outright win the game. A random, or paltry number of Marines and Stalkers will not cut it. Except air attacks are not the only things that kill zergs outright though. There are several builds in ZvT that will kill the zerg outright if unprepared, all requiring extremely different defenses. Air builds are just one of several all-in possibilities that terrans can do. Without scouting, there is really no way to play safe without falling economically behind dramatically. Yes Queens are great, but there if I make a bunch of queens as a zerg player, are you really scared of any kind of attack anytime soon? No, they completely give up map control and any threat of attack Your statements do not address the issue IdrA was talking about.
Well, I was originally responding to Blizzards statement about Zerg's early game anti-air defense. Their statement made a lot of Zergs react strongly. Here it is because it is buried in nested quotes.
On May 14 2011 01:34 TheGreenBee wrote:Show nested quote + If a zerg player is totally unprepared, we don't mind them just outright losing the game. I find something terribly wrong with this statement..
I was not trying to pick up where Day9 left off and argue against a Phantom IdrA who is not present to respond. Plus, seriously doubt I could argue with IdrA anyway. He has a professional understanding of the game at a level that would most likely dismiss any points I could possibly make.
But, I've no problem arguing with the random Internet troll/scrub (don't get all butthurt, I'm not excluding myself from this category).
This early game argument about Zerg does drive me nuts though ;P Zerg's ability to mass produce, tech switch, and power their economy scale at incredible rates and become ever more frightening every 44 game seconds. Zerg player's fly in overlords, scout the front, and leave a ling at the ramp so when they see or sense something they can react and be in decent shape by the time the one base play hits them.
But what I hear is that they also want an near-absolute scout like Scan or Observer? I think there is a very specific reason why this does not exist. Maybe it is for the good, maybe it's not. But if Zerg also got a near-absolute scout then they would actually be impossible to punish, and possibly impossible to truly defeat in an even match.
Zerg builds a Spawning Pool, and can tech to a Baneling Nest or a Roach Warren, or both. This is in addition to the Queen/Ling/drone defense. They can invest in a roach warren or a bling nest but do not have to spend five minutes building up those numbers. They spot something that requires roaches? Bam. They can have mas roach very quickly. Problem solved.
The Terran cannot just have "mass tank" if they invested in a Factory. Protoss cannot just have mass immortal if they have a Robo Fac.
A scout on the same level of efficacy as the Scan or Observer/Hallucinate would be too good for Zerg, in my opinion. I could be wrong, of course, but I think that is the reason in early game Zerg is left "guessing."
Did any of that come through? I'm not sure if I'm articulating this well.
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Seriously, what is up with the Zerg whining that they can't get everything (econ, aggressive, safe, tech) with one build? The game wasn't built that way, otherwise, it would get very stale. Why would anyone play any other race when one race can do everything and be safe?
Think about, if Protoss or Terran fast expands, they are obviously vulnerable at the beginning of the game. Yes, building cannons/bunkers/defense obviously helps but this means that their tech will slow down OR they might have less units or even less workers due to building defense. If the other two races have to sacrifice something, why can't Zerg players understand this as well?
Every time I hear a Zerg whine about being safe, its frustrating. You can't simply have everything otherwise, there would be no point in playing this game at all. The game is all about choices, you have to take your pick.
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Zerg builds a Spawning Pool, and can tech to a Baneling Nest or a Roach Warren, or both. This is in addition to the Queen/Ling/drone defense. They can invest in a roach warren or a bling nest but do not have to spend five minutes building up those numbers. They spot something that requires roaches? Bam. They can have mas roach very quickly. Problem solved.
The Terran cannot just have "mass tank" if they invested in a Factory. Protoss cannot just have mass immortal if they have a Robo Fac.
A scout on the same level of efficacy as the Scan or Observer/Hallucinate would be too good for Zerg, in my opinion. I could be wrong, of course, but I think that is the reason in early game Zerg is left "guessing."
Did any of that come through? I'm not sure if I'm articulating this well.
No, that doesn't make sense. Why would that be fair that we have to guess? That's the reason why our tech takes way longer and we have to invest more in it.
And we DO have good scouting. Overseers and Overlord Speed stuff is fine. It's the time at which we get these which is the issue. Delaying Lair, like a lot of people are suggesting, makes this guessing period much longer and makes your play much more risky.
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On May 14 2011 03:20 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
but right now, if we choose safety (spine crawlers, queens) and possibility of aggression (zergling speed), we end up with an econ disadvantage... if we choose safety and econ (spanishiwa style) then we get out-econ'd by greedy players, and if we choose econ and possibility of aggression (no spines, less queens, no blind units, zergling speed) then we have no safety and die to allins. and since no race has good scouting atm we can't even choose in an educated manner, we have to blind guess which two we need.
zergs dont want a "gimme an advantage in everything build" we want a "allow me to stay even with my opponent without taking huge risks" build and that build currently doesn't exist.
So do you think the problem is largely with Terran and not with Protoss?
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On May 14 2011 03:24 Chaosvuistje wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 03:07 GinDo wrote:On May 14 2011 02:44 DoubleReed wrote:On May 14 2011 01:50 TimeSpiral wrote:On May 14 2011 01:39 Effay wrote:On May 14 2011 01:37 TimeSpiral wrote:On May 14 2011 01:34 TheGreenBee wrote: If a zerg player is totally unprepared, we don't mind them just outright losing the game. I find something terribly wrong with this statement.. Why? That's a pretty obvious and fundamental principal. It's a good principle except it's basically impossible for zerg to be properly prepared without sacrificing significant amounts of economy. Another myth ... If your opponent launches a potentially killing-blow attack, and you are "totally unprepared" then you losing the game outright is an acceptable and probable outcome. This principle is fundamental in that it affects everyone who plays the game, regardless of race. I remember IdrA during a recent SotG asking "what is the all-purpose Zerg defense for early game?" and when he got his response, from Day9, he rejected it. To put it simply, hatchery tech. To put it even more simply, and to specifically address anti-air, Queens & Spores. Zerg essentially starts the game with the ability to produce a larva and gas independent all-purpose attack macro caster unit. Stop complaining. People think that Terran and Protoss just haphazardly build marines and stalkers in early game. Give your opponents a little bit of credit, and respect. Each unit is built for a reason. If you surprise Terran or Protoss with a beefy air attack you can cause major damage or outright win the game. A random, or paltry number of Marines and Stalkers will not cut it. Except air attacks are not the only things that kill zergs outright though. There are several builds in ZvT that will kill the zerg outright if unprepared, all requiring extremely different defenses. Air builds are just one of several all-in possibilities that terrans can do. Without scouting, there is really no way to play safe without falling economically behind dramatically. Yes Queens are great, but there if I make a bunch of queens as a zerg player, are you really scared of any kind of attack anytime soon? No, they completely give up map control and any threat of attack Your statements do not address the issue IdrA was talking about. Exactly what are these buids though? Hellion- Build Queens,Spread Creep Air Atk- Build Queens,Spread Creep Drop-Build Queens,Spread Creep AnyType of Frontal attack- Roaches and Lings And Zerg isn't the only race that has to deal with this crap. Every Race does. Its only that people don't want to Build Queens,Spread Creep. They get 1 queen per hatch and to them its the end of the line. I see so many Zergs scout an air attack and only stick to 1 queen. I remember a game with dimaga he scouted an air attack. And all he did was Build Queens and Drone, Queens and drones. 1rax expand 2rax bunker rush 2rax bitbybit 6rax allin blueflame hellion-marauder allin 2port banshee 1port cloak banshee mass blueflame hellion bfhellion drop marauder marine stim allin marine hellion allin And thats just terran. Granted, if I scout gas , I just build queens and banelings. Because banelings deal well with marines and queens + spinecrawlers deal well with banshees and hellions. So thats kind of a 'general' safe opening. I do not mind blizzard saying that I should outright lose if I am completely caught with my pants down. Its been that way since broodwar. Its just that as zerg you encounter those a lot more than terran or protoss, which makes the race frustrating to play. There is no big problem earlygame in ZvT ( if you don't count close positions and bunkered ramps ). Its ZvP thats hard to adjust to even as a masters zerg.
What aspect of ZvP early game is problematic? It always seem that early game, the ball is in the Zerg's court. You have access to when the Protoss is expanding, what first 2 units they make, and how much Chrono is being spent on the Gateway/Cyber. Conversely, Protoss is blind until he aggresses or grabs an Obs. 4 Gate isn't that problematic any more and Tech all-ins are handled by noticing the lack of Gateway units, making a couple more Queens, and getting Lair. I'm not really seeing these crushing early game strategies. Protoss wins by going 2 base deathball these days.
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EPT
