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On May 14 2011 04:16 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 04:14 Treemonkeys wrote:On May 14 2011 04:11 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On May 14 2011 04:00 Treemonkeys wrote:On May 14 2011 03:46 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
the problem is with all three races. allins and greedy plays have been strengthened in SC2 (chrono, inject, mules, reactors) but scouting has not... it's a game design issue. Because chrono, inject, mules, and chrono can never be used to build defense. not when you were spending them on your economy or tech in order to stay even with your opponent. If he is going all in, you're not staying even, you're getting too far ahead economically. The game does not favor all in's, though some maps do/did. sure, you want to have only a slight advantage against an allin player and devote the rest to defense. the problem is, as I said in my first post, that scouting is shit for all three races so it's incredibly difficult to gauge what your opponent is doing and react appropriately.
So you're saying that the game design is flawed for all three races? Or is it still only Zerg. I can accept that you don't like the way the game is designed overall, but if you're only referring to Zerg, I can't say that I'd agree because all races have pluses and minuses.
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On May 14 2011 04:17 Skyze wrote:
if anything.. protoss have it way worse than zerg. You REQUIRE a robo to defend banshees. Zerg can do whatever they want, because as long as they have a lair (which almost every game past 5 minutes does), they are automatically prepared to deal with banshee or DT.
If you are a zerg, and didnt scout (which is easy, lings/ovies) and didnt build any spores or queens, then YES, you do deserve to lose automatically to banshee or voidray.
yep, you REQUIRE something you were going to get anyways, just like a lair.
and also, in what dimension is scouting as zerg easy?
On May 14 2011 04:18 randplaty wrote:
So you're saying that the game design is flawed for all three races? Or is it still only Zerg. I can accept that you don't like the way the game is designed overall, but if you're only referring to Zerg, I can't say that I'd agree because all races have pluses and minuses.
I'm saying the guessing game is bad for all three races but zerg gets the worst of it.
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On May 14 2011 04:11 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
correct, although I do think that if zerg guesses wrong they get punished harder.. so I suppose they have a disadvantage in that way.
What if they guess correctly? I would argue that if the Zerg guesses correctly, there's nothing T or P can do to stop them. For example, if the Zerg guesses that the Protoss is going to move out at the 10 minute mark with a push and they make 50 zerglings and intercept, the game is over. Zerg wins. So in a sense the disadvantage balances the advantage.
It's true that if they guess incorrectly, its bad for them... they lose 25 potential drones... so it's roulette.
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On May 14 2011 04:14 randplaty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 04:12 Treemonkeys wrote:
Okay, I don't even want to get into "who is weaker" arguments, I just want to point out that it seems rather silly to compare walling your main to having spores. One you might have to do if they build cloaked/air units, and will slightly set you back economically if you do it when it isn't needed. The other is needed every single game against zerg, costs almost nothing outside of APM and slight reduction of mining time, and is something that you generally just have to get in the habit of doing. Technically speaking not building a spore is not *always* a "mistake" if they do a good job of denying scout info and tricking you, but not raising the depot or putting a zealot on hold position, always, always is. You don't always know if you need a spore crawler, but you always know you need to wall off.
I agree with you on all points that you made. Unfortunately, that's not the issue. I was merely addressing the "autolose" argument. All races have an "autolose" button. Merely because that autolose button exists does not mean that zerg is flawed.
Well we can certainly agree that zerg is not flawed. Though I would be lying if I said I have never felt like that in the past - but lets be honest, this game is frustrating as fuck to play for all three races. Zergs have been so gung ho about getting 70 drones as fast as possible they became extremely predicable and initially (at release) zerg was in a pretty bad spot but between balance changes and meta game changes I believe that is completely in the past now, but the mentality still lingers. Even the recent problems with ZvP have blossomed into a situation were zerg is doing well and protoss doesn't even know WTF to expect now. All of that imba talk was based on judging the entire matchup on the roach/hydra/corrupter composition, which was a much bigger problem than anything Blizz has done - begging for balance changes before extensively trying new things.
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On May 14 2011 04:22 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 04:14 randplaty wrote:On May 14 2011 04:12 Treemonkeys wrote:
Okay, I don't even want to get into "who is weaker" arguments, I just want to point out that it seems rather silly to compare walling your main to having spores. One you might have to do if they build cloaked/air units, and will slightly set you back economically if you do it when it isn't needed. The other is needed every single game against zerg, costs almost nothing outside of APM and slight reduction of mining time, and is something that you generally just have to get in the habit of doing. Technically speaking not building a spore is not *always* a "mistake" if they do a good job of denying scout info and tricking you, but not raising the depot or putting a zealot on hold position, always, always is. You don't always know if you need a spore crawler, but you always know you need to wall off.
I agree with you on all points that you made. Unfortunately, that's not the issue. I was merely addressing the "autolose" argument. All races have an "autolose" button. Merely because that autolose button exists does not mean that zerg is flawed. Well we can certainly agree that zerg is not flawed. Though I would be lying if I said I have never felt like that in the past - but lets be honest, this game is frustrating as fuck to play for all three races. Zergs have been so gung ho about getting 70 drones as fast as possible they became extremely predicable and initially (at release) zerg was in a pretty bad spot but between balance changes and meta game changes I believe that is completely in the past now, but the mentality still lingers. Even the recent problems with ZvP have blossomed into a situation were zerg is doing well and protoss doesn't even know WTF to expect now. All of that imba talk was based on judging the entire matchup based on the roach/hydra/corrupter composition, which was a much bigger problem than anything Blizz has done - begging for balance changes before extensively trying new things.
I agree with you. It is very frustrating and I'd prefer that there would be no "autolose" buttons for ANY race. On Inside the game with djWHEAT, iNcontrol talked about how positioning is more important than it was in SC2 and because of that macro is relatively less important than it was in BW. I don't remember his exact words, but if you position incorrectly, all 15 minutes of perfect macro spent building up your army is gone in about 30 seconds and due to 1 mistake. That's extremely frustrating. That's a game design issue. It wasn't that way in BW.
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On May 14 2011 04:16 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 04:14 Treemonkeys wrote:On May 14 2011 04:11 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On May 14 2011 04:00 Treemonkeys wrote:On May 14 2011 03:46 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
the problem is with all three races. allins and greedy plays have been strengthened in SC2 (chrono, inject, mules, reactors) but scouting has not... it's a game design issue. Because chrono, inject, mules, and chrono can never be used to build defense. not when you were spending them on your economy or tech in order to stay even with your opponent. If he is going all in, you're not staying even, you're getting too far ahead economically. The game does not favor all in's, though some maps do/did. sure, you want to have only a slight advantage against an allin player and devote the rest to defense. the problem is, as I said in my first post, that scouting is shit for all three races so it's incredibly difficult to gauge what your opponent is doing and react appropriately.
Welcome to RTS games with fog of war. Making correct decisions off of limited information is a cornerstone not only of the game but of the entire genre.
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On May 13 2011 19:11 AndAgain wrote:+ Show Spoiler +"First, we definitely don’t like seeing Thors en masse. Due to the visual size of the unit, as well as a small pathing radius, Thors can obscure the other units in your army too easily. This can be problematic because it's important to know roughly how many units an opponent has when scouting. We want the Thor to be the type of unit that you add to your main army, and we definitely don’t want them to be the core of your army to the point where you strive to build as many as possible." That's an interesting view they have. It's the same reason why they got rid of the viking flower- because it made it difficult to see how many vikings there are. I don't understand it given you can select all the units and look at the UI to count the number.
You can't select multiple enemy units though can you?
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On May 14 2011 04:26 randplaty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 04:22 Treemonkeys wrote:On May 14 2011 04:14 randplaty wrote:On May 14 2011 04:12 Treemonkeys wrote:
Okay, I don't even want to get into "who is weaker" arguments, I just want to point out that it seems rather silly to compare walling your main to having spores. One you might have to do if they build cloaked/air units, and will slightly set you back economically if you do it when it isn't needed. The other is needed every single game against zerg, costs almost nothing outside of APM and slight reduction of mining time, and is something that you generally just have to get in the habit of doing. Technically speaking not building a spore is not *always* a "mistake" if they do a good job of denying scout info and tricking you, but not raising the depot or putting a zealot on hold position, always, always is. You don't always know if you need a spore crawler, but you always know you need to wall off.
I agree with you on all points that you made. Unfortunately, that's not the issue. I was merely addressing the "autolose" argument. All races have an "autolose" button. Merely because that autolose button exists does not mean that zerg is flawed. Well we can certainly agree that zerg is not flawed. Though I would be lying if I said I have never felt like that in the past - but lets be honest, this game is frustrating as fuck to play for all three races. Zergs have been so gung ho about getting 70 drones as fast as possible they became extremely predicable and initially (at release) zerg was in a pretty bad spot but between balance changes and meta game changes I believe that is completely in the past now, but the mentality still lingers. Even the recent problems with ZvP have blossomed into a situation were zerg is doing well and protoss doesn't even know WTF to expect now. All of that imba talk was based on judging the entire matchup based on the roach/hydra/corrupter composition, which was a much bigger problem than anything Blizz has done - begging for balance changes before extensively trying new things. I agree with you. It is very frustrating and I'd prefer that there would be no "autolose" buttons for ANY race. On Inside the game with djWHEAT, iNcontrol talked about how positioning is more important than it was in SC2 and because of that macro is relatively less important than it was in BW. I don't remember his exact words, but if you position incorrectly, all 15 minutes of perfect macro spent building up your army is gone in about 30 seconds and due to 1 mistake. That's extremely frustrating. That's a game design issue. It wasn't that way in BW.
I think it was exactly like this in brood war.
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So this patch fixes that. Now zergs are happy right?
If 2 port banshee were impossible to stop, why isn't that build standard in TvZ?
No its not impossible, the whole problem is, that you have to build the different defenses beforehand. I have to have enough Sporecrawlers and Queens to defend against it, but i also would need to have enough Banelings to defend against a potential Bio All-in and i would also need to have enough roaches to defend against a potential Helion All-in and while all that i would still need to have a better econ than my opponent to actually have a chance in the midgame if he plays a macro oriented strategy.
Just building the respectiv techbuildings isn't enough, because larvae limits the amount of units i can actually build. If you move out right after i build a round drones, i have to wait 40 seconds til my Queen-larvae pops and then i need to wait another 20-30 Seconds til the units pop, and potentially i need to wait even longer to morph those banelings. The highest amount on larvae per hatchery i could have is 2 without losing larvae production from the hatchery itself. Which means 4 Roaches or 8 Ling/Blings, do you call that a good defense?
All that is probably not a balanceflaw but it is a desingflaw, because zerg can defend everything as long as the player behind it guesses right, but would you like to play like that?
T/P doesn't have that problem in such a scale. For example a sentry expand is safe against a huge variaty of all-ins if executed properly, so the missing scouting informations early game aren't affecting you as much.
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On May 14 2011 04:21 randplaty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 04:11 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
correct, although I do think that if zerg guesses wrong they get punished harder.. so I suppose they have a disadvantage in that way. What if they guess correctly? I would argue that if the Zerg guesses correctly, there's nothing T or P can do to stop them. For example, if the Zerg guesses that the Protoss is going to move out at the 10 minute mark with a push and they make 50 zerglings and intercept, the game is over. Zerg wins. So in a sense the disadvantage balances the advantage. It's true that if they guess incorrectly, its bad for them... they lose 25 potential drones... so it's roulette.
it's still shitty game design.. sure, risk and chance and guessing all have their place but it should be possible for a player to come back from the disadvantage they obtain by guessing incorrectly through good play, but in SC2 that doesn't seem to happen (with rare exceptions) because the advantage/disadvantages are too big.
On May 14 2011 04:27 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 04:16 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On May 14 2011 04:14 Treemonkeys wrote:On May 14 2011 04:11 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On May 14 2011 04:00 Treemonkeys wrote:On May 14 2011 03:46 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
the problem is with all three races. allins and greedy plays have been strengthened in SC2 (chrono, inject, mules, reactors) but scouting has not... it's a game design issue. Because chrono, inject, mules, and chrono can never be used to build defense. not when you were spending them on your economy or tech in order to stay even with your opponent. If he is going all in, you're not staying even, you're getting too far ahead economically. The game does not favor all in's, though some maps do/did. sure, you want to have only a slight advantage against an allin player and devote the rest to defense. the problem is, as I said in my first post, that scouting is shit for all three races so it's incredibly difficult to gauge what your opponent is doing and react appropriately. Welcome to RTS games with fog of war. Making correct decisions off of limited information is a cornerstone not only of the game but of the entire genre.
except right now it's not correct decisions, it's correct guesses. the limited information you can get (even after investing into scouting) isn't definitive, it isn't even close and it doesn't narrow down your opponent's options much either.
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They don't think mass thor is over powered, they just don't like how it looks.
Brilliant.
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On May 14 2011 04:28 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 04:21 randplaty wrote:On May 14 2011 04:11 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
correct, although I do think that if zerg guesses wrong they get punished harder.. so I suppose they have a disadvantage in that way. What if they guess correctly? I would argue that if the Zerg guesses correctly, there's nothing T or P can do to stop them. For example, if the Zerg guesses that the Protoss is going to move out at the 10 minute mark with a push and they make 50 zerglings and intercept, the game is over. Zerg wins. So in a sense the disadvantage balances the advantage. It's true that if they guess incorrectly, its bad for them... they lose 25 potential drones... so it's roulette. it's still shitty game design.. sure, risk and chance and guessing all have their place but it should be possible for a player to come back from the disadvantage they obtain by guessing incorrectly through good play, but in SC2 that doesn't seem to happen (with rare exceptions) because the advantage/disadvantages are too big. Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 04:27 Treemonkeys wrote:On May 14 2011 04:16 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On May 14 2011 04:14 Treemonkeys wrote:On May 14 2011 04:11 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On May 14 2011 04:00 Treemonkeys wrote:On May 14 2011 03:46 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
the problem is with all three races. allins and greedy plays have been strengthened in SC2 (chrono, inject, mules, reactors) but scouting has not... it's a game design issue. Because chrono, inject, mules, and chrono can never be used to build defense. not when you were spending them on your economy or tech in order to stay even with your opponent. If he is going all in, you're not staying even, you're getting too far ahead economically. The game does not favor all in's, though some maps do/did. sure, you want to have only a slight advantage against an allin player and devote the rest to defense. the problem is, as I said in my first post, that scouting is shit for all three races so it's incredibly difficult to gauge what your opponent is doing and react appropriately. Welcome to RTS games with fog of war. Making correct decisions off of limited information is a cornerstone not only of the game but of the entire genre. except right now it's not correct decisions, it's correct guesses. the limited information you can get (even after investing into scouting) isn't definitive, it isn't even close and it doesn't narrow down your opponent's options much either.
So is nestea some kind of statistically anomaly? How on earth is he able to make the correct decisions so often?
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On May 14 2011 04:34 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 04:28 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On May 14 2011 04:21 randplaty wrote:On May 14 2011 04:11 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
correct, although I do think that if zerg guesses wrong they get punished harder.. so I suppose they have a disadvantage in that way. What if they guess correctly? I would argue that if the Zerg guesses correctly, there's nothing T or P can do to stop them. For example, if the Zerg guesses that the Protoss is going to move out at the 10 minute mark with a push and they make 50 zerglings and intercept, the game is over. Zerg wins. So in a sense the disadvantage balances the advantage. It's true that if they guess incorrectly, its bad for them... they lose 25 potential drones... so it's roulette. it's still shitty game design.. sure, risk and chance and guessing all have their place but it should be possible for a player to come back from the disadvantage they obtain by guessing incorrectly through good play, but in SC2 that doesn't seem to happen (with rare exceptions) because the advantage/disadvantages are too big. On May 14 2011 04:27 Treemonkeys wrote:On May 14 2011 04:16 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On May 14 2011 04:14 Treemonkeys wrote:On May 14 2011 04:11 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On May 14 2011 04:00 Treemonkeys wrote:On May 14 2011 03:46 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
the problem is with all three races. allins and greedy plays have been strengthened in SC2 (chrono, inject, mules, reactors) but scouting has not... it's a game design issue. Because chrono, inject, mules, and chrono can never be used to build defense. not when you were spending them on your economy or tech in order to stay even with your opponent. If he is going all in, you're not staying even, you're getting too far ahead economically. The game does not favor all in's, though some maps do/did. sure, you want to have only a slight advantage against an allin player and devote the rest to defense. the problem is, as I said in my first post, that scouting is shit for all three races so it's incredibly difficult to gauge what your opponent is doing and react appropriately. Welcome to RTS games with fog of war. Making correct decisions off of limited information is a cornerstone not only of the game but of the entire genre. except right now it's not correct decisions, it's correct guesses. the limited information you can get (even after investing into scouting) isn't definitive, it isn't even close and it doesn't narrow down your opponent's options much either. So is nestea some kind of statistically anomaly? How on earth is he able to make the correct decisions so often?
And Idra too. He complains about it but still guess right 95% of the time :o
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On May 14 2011 04:34 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 04:28 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On May 14 2011 04:21 randplaty wrote:On May 14 2011 04:11 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
correct, although I do think that if zerg guesses wrong they get punished harder.. so I suppose they have a disadvantage in that way. What if they guess correctly? I would argue that if the Zerg guesses correctly, there's nothing T or P can do to stop them. For example, if the Zerg guesses that the Protoss is going to move out at the 10 minute mark with a push and they make 50 zerglings and intercept, the game is over. Zerg wins. So in a sense the disadvantage balances the advantage. It's true that if they guess incorrectly, its bad for them... they lose 25 potential drones... so it's roulette. it's still shitty game design.. sure, risk and chance and guessing all have their place but it should be possible for a player to come back from the disadvantage they obtain by guessing incorrectly through good play, but in SC2 that doesn't seem to happen (with rare exceptions) because the advantage/disadvantages are too big. On May 14 2011 04:27 Treemonkeys wrote:On May 14 2011 04:16 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On May 14 2011 04:14 Treemonkeys wrote:On May 14 2011 04:11 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On May 14 2011 04:00 Treemonkeys wrote:On May 14 2011 03:46 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
the problem is with all three races. allins and greedy plays have been strengthened in SC2 (chrono, inject, mules, reactors) but scouting has not... it's a game design issue. Because chrono, inject, mules, and chrono can never be used to build defense. not when you were spending them on your economy or tech in order to stay even with your opponent. If he is going all in, you're not staying even, you're getting too far ahead economically. The game does not favor all in's, though some maps do/did. sure, you want to have only a slight advantage against an allin player and devote the rest to defense. the problem is, as I said in my first post, that scouting is shit for all three races so it's incredibly difficult to gauge what your opponent is doing and react appropriately. Welcome to RTS games with fog of war. Making correct decisions off of limited information is a cornerstone not only of the game but of the entire genre. except right now it's not correct decisions, it's correct guesses. the limited information you can get (even after investing into scouting) isn't definitive, it isn't even close and it doesn't narrow down your opponent's options much either. So is nestea some kind of statistically anomaly? How on earth is he able to make the correct decisions so often?
he's really good. I don't think that helps him beat a nexus-cancel warpgate allin without blind countering it, though. nor does it help him tell between a 1rax expand or a 6rax allin.
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On May 14 2011 04:37 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 04:34 Treemonkeys wrote:On May 14 2011 04:28 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On May 14 2011 04:21 randplaty wrote:On May 14 2011 04:11 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
correct, although I do think that if zerg guesses wrong they get punished harder.. so I suppose they have a disadvantage in that way. What if they guess correctly? I would argue that if the Zerg guesses correctly, there's nothing T or P can do to stop them. For example, if the Zerg guesses that the Protoss is going to move out at the 10 minute mark with a push and they make 50 zerglings and intercept, the game is over. Zerg wins. So in a sense the disadvantage balances the advantage. It's true that if they guess incorrectly, its bad for them... they lose 25 potential drones... so it's roulette. it's still shitty game design.. sure, risk and chance and guessing all have their place but it should be possible for a player to come back from the disadvantage they obtain by guessing incorrectly through good play, but in SC2 that doesn't seem to happen (with rare exceptions) because the advantage/disadvantages are too big. On May 14 2011 04:27 Treemonkeys wrote:On May 14 2011 04:16 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On May 14 2011 04:14 Treemonkeys wrote:On May 14 2011 04:11 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On May 14 2011 04:00 Treemonkeys wrote:On May 14 2011 03:46 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
the problem is with all three races. allins and greedy plays have been strengthened in SC2 (chrono, inject, mules, reactors) but scouting has not... it's a game design issue. Because chrono, inject, mules, and chrono can never be used to build defense. not when you were spending them on your economy or tech in order to stay even with your opponent. If he is going all in, you're not staying even, you're getting too far ahead economically. The game does not favor all in's, though some maps do/did. sure, you want to have only a slight advantage against an allin player and devote the rest to defense. the problem is, as I said in my first post, that scouting is shit for all three races so it's incredibly difficult to gauge what your opponent is doing and react appropriately. Welcome to RTS games with fog of war. Making correct decisions off of limited information is a cornerstone not only of the game but of the entire genre. except right now it's not correct decisions, it's correct guesses. the limited information you can get (even after investing into scouting) isn't definitive, it isn't even close and it doesn't narrow down your opponent's options much either. So is nestea some kind of statistically anomaly? How on earth is he able to make the correct decisions so often? And Idra too. He complains about it but still guess right 95% of the time :o
Only because he has some arbitrary measurement in his head where good and bad are not defined by winning. Reminds me of that article that gets linked around here and talks about the same thing - inventing rules for the game that do not correspond with the true rules of the game.
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On May 14 2011 04:37 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 04:34 Treemonkeys wrote:On May 14 2011 04:28 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On May 14 2011 04:21 randplaty wrote:On May 14 2011 04:11 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
correct, although I do think that if zerg guesses wrong they get punished harder.. so I suppose they have a disadvantage in that way. What if they guess correctly? I would argue that if the Zerg guesses correctly, there's nothing T or P can do to stop them. For example, if the Zerg guesses that the Protoss is going to move out at the 10 minute mark with a push and they make 50 zerglings and intercept, the game is over. Zerg wins. So in a sense the disadvantage balances the advantage. It's true that if they guess incorrectly, its bad for them... they lose 25 potential drones... so it's roulette. it's still shitty game design.. sure, risk and chance and guessing all have their place but it should be possible for a player to come back from the disadvantage they obtain by guessing incorrectly through good play, but in SC2 that doesn't seem to happen (with rare exceptions) because the advantage/disadvantages are too big. On May 14 2011 04:27 Treemonkeys wrote:On May 14 2011 04:16 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On May 14 2011 04:14 Treemonkeys wrote:On May 14 2011 04:11 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On May 14 2011 04:00 Treemonkeys wrote:On May 14 2011 03:46 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
the problem is with all three races. allins and greedy plays have been strengthened in SC2 (chrono, inject, mules, reactors) but scouting has not... it's a game design issue. Because chrono, inject, mules, and chrono can never be used to build defense. not when you were spending them on your economy or tech in order to stay even with your opponent. If he is going all in, you're not staying even, you're getting too far ahead economically. The game does not favor all in's, though some maps do/did. sure, you want to have only a slight advantage against an allin player and devote the rest to defense. the problem is, as I said in my first post, that scouting is shit for all three races so it's incredibly difficult to gauge what your opponent is doing and react appropriately. Welcome to RTS games with fog of war. Making correct decisions off of limited information is a cornerstone not only of the game but of the entire genre. except right now it's not correct decisions, it's correct guesses. the limited information you can get (even after investing into scouting) isn't definitive, it isn't even close and it doesn't narrow down your opponent's options much either. So is nestea some kind of statistically anomaly? How on earth is he able to make the correct decisions so often? he's really good. I don't think that helps him beat a nexus-cancel warpgate allin without blind countering it, though. nor does it help him tell between a 1rax expand or a 6rax allin.
Which is why every tournament uses a Best of X format, you can't get away with doing the same thing every game. Also you can prepare to defend a bio all-in and then go offensive if it turns out that it was a 1 rax expand, it's not the best decision but it's not auto-loss either. That is just one example, but in almost everything in SC, there are ways to play out of the sub-optimal decision, which is why Day 9 talks about there not being such a thing as "hard counters".
There is too much one dimensional thought and lack of creativity in the community. Just look at the game July played last night against whatever poor terran he crushed, he went "all in" TWICE and just made it work. People act like their opponents will always play perfectly and they can never overcome anything.
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On May 14 2011 04:39 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 04:37 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On May 14 2011 04:34 Treemonkeys wrote:On May 14 2011 04:28 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On May 14 2011 04:21 randplaty wrote:On May 14 2011 04:11 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
correct, although I do think that if zerg guesses wrong they get punished harder.. so I suppose they have a disadvantage in that way. What if they guess correctly? I would argue that if the Zerg guesses correctly, there's nothing T or P can do to stop them. For example, if the Zerg guesses that the Protoss is going to move out at the 10 minute mark with a push and they make 50 zerglings and intercept, the game is over. Zerg wins. So in a sense the disadvantage balances the advantage. It's true that if they guess incorrectly, its bad for them... they lose 25 potential drones... so it's roulette. it's still shitty game design.. sure, risk and chance and guessing all have their place but it should be possible for a player to come back from the disadvantage they obtain by guessing incorrectly through good play, but in SC2 that doesn't seem to happen (with rare exceptions) because the advantage/disadvantages are too big. On May 14 2011 04:27 Treemonkeys wrote:On May 14 2011 04:16 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On May 14 2011 04:14 Treemonkeys wrote:On May 14 2011 04:11 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On May 14 2011 04:00 Treemonkeys wrote:On May 14 2011 03:46 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
the problem is with all three races. allins and greedy plays have been strengthened in SC2 (chrono, inject, mules, reactors) but scouting has not... it's a game design issue. Because chrono, inject, mules, and chrono can never be used to build defense. not when you were spending them on your economy or tech in order to stay even with your opponent. If he is going all in, you're not staying even, you're getting too far ahead economically. The game does not favor all in's, though some maps do/did. sure, you want to have only a slight advantage against an allin player and devote the rest to defense. the problem is, as I said in my first post, that scouting is shit for all three races so it's incredibly difficult to gauge what your opponent is doing and react appropriately. Welcome to RTS games with fog of war. Making correct decisions off of limited information is a cornerstone not only of the game but of the entire genre. except right now it's not correct decisions, it's correct guesses. the limited information you can get (even after investing into scouting) isn't definitive, it isn't even close and it doesn't narrow down your opponent's options much either. So is nestea some kind of statistically anomaly? How on earth is he able to make the correct decisions so often? he's really good. I don't think that helps him beat a nexus-cancel warpgate allin without blind countering it, though. nor does it help him tell between a 1rax expand or a 6rax allin. Which is why every tournament uses a Best of X format, you can't get away with doing the same thing every game.
no, but it's still a cointoss. just because someone did something the previous game doesn't mean he definitively will or will not do it in this game or future games.
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This was an interesting read. I like their reasoning behind the changes and all of them make sense to me. Making infestors easier to kill is debatable, mine slit their own wrists if I turn my back on them for more than a second but I guess it's different for competant players.
What I like less is how people take an explaination that Blizz give and auto-interpret it to side with the bias they already held regardless of the facts.
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On May 14 2011 04:41 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 04:39 Treemonkeys wrote:On May 14 2011 04:37 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On May 14 2011 04:34 Treemonkeys wrote:On May 14 2011 04:28 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On May 14 2011 04:21 randplaty wrote:On May 14 2011 04:11 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
correct, although I do think that if zerg guesses wrong they get punished harder.. so I suppose they have a disadvantage in that way. What if they guess correctly? I would argue that if the Zerg guesses correctly, there's nothing T or P can do to stop them. For example, if the Zerg guesses that the Protoss is going to move out at the 10 minute mark with a push and they make 50 zerglings and intercept, the game is over. Zerg wins. So in a sense the disadvantage balances the advantage. It's true that if they guess incorrectly, its bad for them... they lose 25 potential drones... so it's roulette. it's still shitty game design.. sure, risk and chance and guessing all have their place but it should be possible for a player to come back from the disadvantage they obtain by guessing incorrectly through good play, but in SC2 that doesn't seem to happen (with rare exceptions) because the advantage/disadvantages are too big. On May 14 2011 04:27 Treemonkeys wrote:On May 14 2011 04:16 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On May 14 2011 04:14 Treemonkeys wrote:On May 14 2011 04:11 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On May 14 2011 04:00 Treemonkeys wrote:
[quote]
Because chrono, inject, mules, and chrono can never be used to build defense. not when you were spending them on your economy or tech in order to stay even with your opponent. If he is going all in, you're not staying even, you're getting too far ahead economically. The game does not favor all in's, though some maps do/did. sure, you want to have only a slight advantage against an allin player and devote the rest to defense. the problem is, as I said in my first post, that scouting is shit for all three races so it's incredibly difficult to gauge what your opponent is doing and react appropriately. Welcome to RTS games with fog of war. Making correct decisions off of limited information is a cornerstone not only of the game but of the entire genre. except right now it's not correct decisions, it's correct guesses. the limited information you can get (even after investing into scouting) isn't definitive, it isn't even close and it doesn't narrow down your opponent's options much either. So is nestea some kind of statistically anomaly? How on earth is he able to make the correct decisions so often? he's really good. I don't think that helps him beat a nexus-cancel warpgate allin without blind countering it, though. nor does it help him tell between a 1rax expand or a 6rax allin. Which is why every tournament uses a Best of X format, you can't get away with doing the same thing every game. no, but it's still a cointoss. just because someone did something the previous game doesn't mean he definitively will or will not do it in this game or future games.
Maybe this game isn't for you then, honestly. There are ways to win mind games, but there is no way to guarantee you will win every game of SC2, and that seems to be what you are looking for. The annoying part is people acting like BW wasn't exactly like this. That's why people in BW with 70% win rates are so godly, 100% win rate is not realistically possible.
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This thread has degenerated into who can whine the most. We all play SC2 people and yes, the race you play is the worst and you have to be a vastly superior player to win against the other races.
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EPT
