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On May 07 2011 06:39 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 06:38 holynorth wrote:
So now people are going to going to edit the colors of key units. Ghosts will be a neon green, high templars a bright pink, so they stand out and are easily hit with feedback/emp. Sure, why not? It won't work at any offline event, and ladder doesn't matter.
oblivious? There are online tournaments that offer huge cash prizes, modding like this should be illegal.
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On May 07 2011 08:19 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 07:59 KoKoRo wrote:On May 07 2011 07:52 Artimo wrote:That's usually the case when you misuse/abuse model editing.
But most of the texture editing, changing important units to bright flashy colors, don't really give you an advantage just because you can personally see them better. huh? let me try to wrap my brain around what you just said. if you see something one way then change something so you now see something "better" then by definition you have an advantage.. you said it yourself. you see it BETTER!!!! It doesn't give you an advantage flat out. I can see Ghosts/HTs fine without texture editing. Why can't you? Do I have an advantage because I can see Ghosts/HTs without texture editing? EDIT: In grade school in computer class they put rubber over the keyboard so we'd learn to type without looking at the keys. Now the rubber is gone and I don't have to look at the keyboard to see the keys. This is not an advantage, it's muscle memory. Your argument makes absolutely zero sense. it does not matter if you can see it fine without editing, that is not the point. The point is you can see it BETTER with model editing. I seen this shit happen in back in world of warcraft. It starts with small edits like loading screens. goes back to some worse stuff like changing your race for visual appeal and at that point there WILL be people who abuse it and make it bannable. I don't even see what you are trying to proof with the keyboard typing example...
The keyboard typing example is my own visual ques I have for spotting ghosts or other units of importance in a group of units. It doesn't make it easier for me to click them, but I can still be like, "Oh look, Ghosts." It's the same deal with texture editing. As long as it doesn't model edit into being able to click the unit without trouble, like making it the size of a colossus, there's no problem with texture editing. If you still had to click where the Ghost was instead of the Ghost's model it'd still be legal. Visual fun and Model fun are 2 different things. If you edited the model so you could click it anywhere when it's the size of a colossus it's considered cheating.
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On May 07 2011 08:27 emc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 06:39 Mailing wrote:On May 07 2011 06:38 holynorth wrote:
So now people are going to going to edit the colors of key units. Ghosts will be a neon green, high templars a bright pink, so they stand out and are easily hit with feedback/emp. Sure, why not? It won't work at any offline event, and ladder doesn't matter. oblivious? There are online tournaments that offer huge cash prizes, modding like this should be illegal.
Ok? If they are going to use it in online tourneys, whats stopping them from maphacking as well? What about using the minimap enlarger? There are a lot of cheats floating around SC2, editing some colors is a small thing.
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I really really hope they start banning people for doing this, sets a terrible precendent if they don't and I don't want to play people who abuse this to edit models / textures to make them more visible or obvious
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On May 07 2011 08:28 KoKoRo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 08:19 Assirra wrote:On May 07 2011 07:59 KoKoRo wrote:On May 07 2011 07:52 Artimo wrote:That's usually the case when you misuse/abuse model editing.
But most of the texture editing, changing important units to bright flashy colors, don't really give you an advantage just because you can personally see them better. huh? let me try to wrap my brain around what you just said. if you see something one way then change something so you now see something "better" then by definition you have an advantage.. you said it yourself. you see it BETTER!!!! It doesn't give you an advantage flat out. I can see Ghosts/HTs fine without texture editing. Why can't you? Do I have an advantage because I can see Ghosts/HTs without texture editing? EDIT: In grade school in computer class they put rubber over the keyboard so we'd learn to type without looking at the keys. Now the rubber is gone and I don't have to look at the keyboard to see the keys. This is not an advantage, it's muscle memory. Your argument makes absolutely zero sense. it does not matter if you can see it fine without editing, that is not the point. The point is you can see it BETTER with model editing. I seen this shit happen in back in world of warcraft. It starts with small edits like loading screens. goes back to some worse stuff like changing your race for visual appeal and at that point there WILL be people who abuse it and make it bannable. I don't even see what you are trying to proof with the keyboard typing example... The keyboard typing example is my own visual ques I have for spotting ghosts or other units of importance in a group of units. It doesn't make it easier for me to click them, but I can still be like, "Oh look, Ghosts." It's the same deal with texture editing. As long as it doesn't model edit into being able to click the unit without trouble, like making it the size of a colossus, there's no problem with texture editing. If you still had to click where the Ghost was instead of the Ghost's model it'd still be legal. Visual fun and Model fun are 2 different things. If you edited the model so you could click it anywhere when it's the size of a colossus it's considered cheating.
Do you honestly do not see the problem here?Let's say i make ghosts or high templar's bright pink.Would you argue that you see them as good as when the normal textures?
Its about spotting them and since they are bright pink you can click better on them since they stand out so much.
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On May 07 2011 08:19 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 07:59 KoKoRo wrote:On May 07 2011 07:52 Artimo wrote:That's usually the case when you misuse/abuse model editing.
But most of the texture editing, changing important units to bright flashy colors, don't really give you an advantage just because you can personally see them better. huh? let me try to wrap my brain around what you just said. if you see something one way then change something so you now see something "better" then by definition you have an advantage.. you said it yourself. you see it BETTER!!!! It doesn't give you an advantage flat out. I can see Ghosts/HTs fine without texture editing. Why can't you? Do I have an advantage because I can see Ghosts/HTs without texture editing? EDIT: In grade school in computer class they put rubber over the keyboard so we'd learn to type without looking at the keys. Now the rubber is gone and I don't have to look at the keyboard to see the keys. This is not an advantage, it's muscle memory. Your argument makes absolutely zero sense. it does not matter if you can see it fine without editing, that is not the point. The point is you can see it BETTER with model editing. I seen this shit happen in back in world of warcraft. It starts with small edits like loading screens. goes back to some worse stuff like changing your race for visual appeal and at that point there WILL be people who abuse it and make it bannable. I don't even see what you are trying to proof with the keyboard typing example...
Clocked units re-skinned O_O!
or even, make the units with energy a bright color for easy targeting..
Personally I am fine with it though, make sc2 harder plz.
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That would be so awesome to see ghost randomly generated as Nova..
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Basically editing comes down to this:
You have people who do it for fun and not for cheating, you have people who see it all as cheating, and you have people who do not want to do it out of fear of being banned.
The people who do it for fun don't generally get banned for doing it. Why not? Because they're not breaking rules to have an advantage at the game. they don't think, "I hope I don't get banned for doing this." That stops any logical person from doing something questionable in the first place. These are the people who want to enhance their gaming experience in the fun factor. I played WoW for more years than I would've liked to because I could change things in the game without being banned and there was really no other benefit than that I liked to do it. It kept me playing and Blizzard didn't stop me or most people from doing it as long as it didn't interfere with other players or give me an advantage. That's not to say I went around shouting in peoples faces, "LOL Hey guys I modded the game so you all look stupid LOL!" I kept it pretty secretive and anybody that asked me questions about it got a straight answer.
The people who see it all as cheating like to think the game is just the game and everything should be the same for everyone. If it's boring for them they should go do something else. Obviously. But no, look at games that allow modding. Minecraft for example you can mod to any extent you want and Notch may or may not put your ideas into the final version of the game. I'm not too big into Civilization but from what I heard there was a major modding community that made that game what it is today. Although the Civilization one effected everyone playing, I will still hold it as a point. Either way these are the people who value game play and fairness over fun. So they kill joy on the people who like to mod their stuff to keep them interested in said game.
The people who don't want to be banned just want to play the game. Whether they're being cheated or not, they just don't care as long as they think they're playing fairly. Which is nice. This is the mindset you should have when playing a game or modding. I'm more than certain people who cheat don't actually admit that them having hacks is unfair. They know they're taking advantage of things they shouldn't and should be banned. This could fall under people who don't want to be banned by accidentally doing something they didn't intend to do. Which was cheat. They should stay away from modding altogether unless it's the last option to keep them interested in a game.
If you think it's bad, don't do it. If you want answers for why some people get away with it then ask them why it's 'okay' for them and not others. Don't go all morals on someone saying, "Yeah man it's against the ToS and cheating, you're gonna get soooo banned." That's not gonna stop people at all from doing it. Just report it to Blizzard and let them deal with it. You should know better. Blizzard doesn't actively check the files you do edit unless the file is not directly loaded with their SC2 files. Warden picks up third party programs and tells Blizzard what exactly is going on. It's not a, "File Corrupt instaban" or "File Changed ban/warning" type deal. Blizzard checks to see if it runs smoothly with the rest of their files and then checks to see if it gives you an unfair advantage. In the past Warden instabanned several accounts that used 3rd party programs to run SC2/WoW for this reason. It was not an Original SC2/WoW file being used to activate the game.
Now I don't actually know how hacks/cheats work for SC2 but I assume 99% of them are 'undetectable 3rd party programs"
P.S. don't use what I say as a reference point, I'm not a Blizzard employee and I'm only taking shots in the dark as to how their system works.
On May 07 2011 08:35 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 08:28 KoKoRo wrote:On May 07 2011 08:19 Assirra wrote:On May 07 2011 07:59 KoKoRo wrote:On May 07 2011 07:52 Artimo wrote:That's usually the case when you misuse/abuse model editing.
But most of the texture editing, changing important units to bright flashy colors, don't really give you an advantage just because you can personally see them better. huh? let me try to wrap my brain around what you just said. if you see something one way then change something so you now see something "better" then by definition you have an advantage.. you said it yourself. you see it BETTER!!!! It doesn't give you an advantage flat out. I can see Ghosts/HTs fine without texture editing. Why can't you? Do I have an advantage because I can see Ghosts/HTs without texture editing? EDIT: In grade school in computer class they put rubber over the keyboard so we'd learn to type without looking at the keys. Now the rubber is gone and I don't have to look at the keyboard to see the keys. This is not an advantage, it's muscle memory. Your argument makes absolutely zero sense. it does not matter if you can see it fine without editing, that is not the point. The point is you can see it BETTER with model editing. I seen this shit happen in back in world of warcraft. It starts with small edits like loading screens. goes back to some worse stuff like changing your race for visual appeal and at that point there WILL be people who abuse it and make it bannable. I don't even see what you are trying to proof with the keyboard typing example... The keyboard typing example is my own visual ques I have for spotting ghosts or other units of importance in a group of units. It doesn't make it easier for me to click them, but I can still be like, "Oh look, Ghosts." It's the same deal with texture editing. As long as it doesn't model edit into being able to click the unit without trouble, like making it the size of a colossus, there's no problem with texture editing. If you still had to click where the Ghost was instead of the Ghost's model it'd still be legal. Visual fun and Model fun are 2 different things. If you edited the model so you could click it anywhere when it's the size of a colossus it's considered cheating. Do you honestly do not see the problem here?Let's say i make ghosts or high templar's bright pink.Would you argue that you see them as good as when the normal textures? Its about spotting them and since they are bright pink you can click better on them since they stand out so much.
You cannot click them any better or worse. They are the same size. Drop this silliness.
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lolol this is pretty cool, nice work!
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If you are honestly denying that making them easier to spot does not make it easier to click i am off.
you are hopeless.
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The keyboard typing example is my own visual ques I have for spotting ghosts or other units of importance in a group of units. It doesn't make it easier for me to click them, but I can still be like, "Oh look, Ghosts." It's the same deal with texture editing. As long as it doesn't model edit into being able to click the unit without trouble, like making it the size of a colossus, there's no problem with texture editing. If you still had to click where the Ghost was instead of the Ghost's model it'd still be legal. Visual fun and Model fun are 2 different things. If you edited the model so you could click it anywhere when it's the size of a colossus it's considered cheating.
And what stops someone under that theory from using a model for say a dark shrine with spikes that stick out half across the map for easy scouting? even if you cant click on it, there is still an advantage to be had as the visual is adjusted to an extent it makes it easier to react to.
Even if a ghost is made to look like a colossus, there is still an advantage to be made as they are made easy to spot within an army, even if the hitbox is the same.
The problem is there is no way for blizzard to tell if a modification is like the ops with no added advantage, or if its like the above mentioned.. so to ban for both should and im sure down the line will be the case.
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On May 07 2011 06:16 HolyArrow wrote:
I lol'd at the Boxxy menu background.
hahahaha same here. was pretty hawt imo
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On May 07 2011 08:53 KoKoRo wrote:
You cannot click them any better or worse. They are the same size. Drop this silliness.
I don't know why you seem to be arguing that this is the only thing that matters - its not. Swapping a DT model with an Ultralisk makes it far easier to see than unmodified, which is a big advantage. It really doesn't matter if you have to click perfectly or not.
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On May 07 2011 09:01 Naughty wrote:Show nested quote +The keyboard typing example is my own visual ques I have for spotting ghosts or other units of importance in a group of units. It doesn't make it easier for me to click them, but I can still be like, "Oh look, Ghosts." It's the same deal with texture editing. As long as it doesn't model edit into being able to click the unit without trouble, like making it the size of a colossus, there's no problem with texture editing. If you still had to click where the Ghost was instead of the Ghost's model it'd still be legal. Visual fun and Model fun are 2 different things. If you edited the model so you could click it anywhere when it's the size of a colossus it's considered cheating. And what stops someone under that theory from using a model for say a dark shrine with spikes that stick out half across the map for easy scouting? even if you cant click on it, there is still an advantage to be had as the visual is adjusted to an extent it makes it easier to react to.
The problem with this is you'd have to actually see the base model first.
On May 07 2011 09:04 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 08:53 KoKoRo wrote:
You cannot click them any better or worse. They are the same size. Drop this silliness. I don't know why you seem to be arguing that this is the only thing that matters - its not. Swapping a DT model with an Ultralisk makes it far easier to see than unmodified, which is a big advantage. It really doesn't matter if you have to click perfectly or not.
I'm arguing against people who are saying texture editing to make something look brighter is easier to click/spot. I can see and click things just fine without texture editing them. So I'm dropping that as a valid argument.
As for Model swaping/editing, there is always some grey area as to what is allowed and what isn't. Basically blizzard wants NO model editing. But they let a lot of slide since it's no advantage. Still I can see a DT running around without having to change its model to an ultralisk either. Just because it's easier to spot something like that doesn't mean it's against the rules, as long as it's still the same difficulty to click.
Again if you think it's bad, don't do it.
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On May 07 2011 09:04 KoKoRo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 09:01 Naughty wrote:The keyboard typing example is my own visual ques I have for spotting ghosts or other units of importance in a group of units. It doesn't make it easier for me to click them, but I can still be like, "Oh look, Ghosts." It's the same deal with texture editing. As long as it doesn't model edit into being able to click the unit without trouble, like making it the size of a colossus, there's no problem with texture editing. If you still had to click where the Ghost was instead of the Ghost's model it'd still be legal. Visual fun and Model fun are 2 different things. If you edited the model so you could click it anywhere when it's the size of a colossus it's considered cheating. And what stops someone under that theory from using a model for say a dark shrine with spikes that stick out half across the map for easy scouting? even if you cant click on it, there is still an advantage to be had as the visual is adjusted to an extent it makes it easier to react to. The problem with this is you'd have to actually see the base model first.
This. Once scouted, it would stick into your vision, but you still need to scout the bottom 8 hexes or whatever they are.
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On May 07 2011 09:04 KoKoRo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 09:01 Naughty wrote:The keyboard typing example is my own visual ques I have for spotting ghosts or other units of importance in a group of units. It doesn't make it easier for me to click them, but I can still be like, "Oh look, Ghosts." It's the same deal with texture editing. As long as it doesn't model edit into being able to click the unit without trouble, like making it the size of a colossus, there's no problem with texture editing. If you still had to click where the Ghost was instead of the Ghost's model it'd still be legal. Visual fun and Model fun are 2 different things. If you edited the model so you could click it anywhere when it's the size of a colossus it's considered cheating. And what stops someone under that theory from using a model for say a dark shrine with spikes that stick out half across the map for easy scouting? even if you cant click on it, there is still an advantage to be had as the visual is adjusted to an extent it makes it easier to react to. The problem with this is you'd have to actually see the base model first.
Indeed, in order to see the spikes, you'd have to have seen the hitbox of the building, which can't be modified. That's just like saying you could make a nexus so big that you could just worker rush it the second the game starts.
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On May 07 2011 09:08 Teliko wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 09:04 KoKoRo wrote:On May 07 2011 09:01 Naughty wrote:The keyboard typing example is my own visual ques I have for spotting ghosts or other units of importance in a group of units. It doesn't make it easier for me to click them, but I can still be like, "Oh look, Ghosts." It's the same deal with texture editing. As long as it doesn't model edit into being able to click the unit without trouble, like making it the size of a colossus, there's no problem with texture editing. If you still had to click where the Ghost was instead of the Ghost's model it'd still be legal. Visual fun and Model fun are 2 different things. If you edited the model so you could click it anywhere when it's the size of a colossus it's considered cheating. And what stops someone under that theory from using a model for say a dark shrine with spikes that stick out half across the map for easy scouting? even if you cant click on it, there is still an advantage to be had as the visual is adjusted to an extent it makes it easier to react to. The problem with this is you'd have to actually see the base model first. Indeed, in order to see the spikes, you'd have to have seen the hitbox of the building, which can't be modified. That's just like saying you could make a nexus so big that you could just worker rush it the second the game starts.
Even so, my point still stands. Blizzard has no way to determine if a model edit is designed to gain an advantage or not.
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That's a good point. Could you swap out an observer model for a mothership? Then it would be obvious as day if there's an observer over your army.
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A mothership is actually the only one I'm not sure about - because you cant cloak motherships (I think? maybe you can in team games rofl) so it might not have a texture for it - but I would be shocked if the cloak texture wasn't an overlay onto normal textures.
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EPT
