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On October 24 2012 16:04 TheWorldToCome wrote:
Wheat's analogy with American Idol/Breaking Bad was literally the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
Don't ruin breaking bad trying to get the same viewing numbers as American Idol.
You don't have to be the biggest show to still be a great show.
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Incontrol, I think you better do yourself a favor and call it a night on this thread. Nothing good can come out of posting here- especially while you're still heated.
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On October 24 2012 16:06 Blackhawk13 wrote:
Incontrol, I think you better do yourself a favor and call it a night on this thread. Nothing good can come out of posting here- especially while you're still hated.
FTFY
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On October 24 2012 16:06 itiswhatitis wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 16:04 1handsomE wrote:On October 24 2012 16:02 itiswhatitis wrote:On October 24 2012 16:00 1handsomE wrote:On October 24 2012 15:37 itiswhatitis wrote:On October 24 2012 15:35 1handsomE wrote:On October 24 2012 15:33 JPSke wrote:
Why don't we spend 14 more pages talking about bullshit and drama instead of addressing the real issue at hand.
SC2 is in comparative if not actual decline. It went from a flagship for E-sports to a major competitor to a somewhat nostalgic tertiary figure in 18 months. Its direct competitors have out-innovated it, out-marketed it, and out-positioned it with a free to play model, integrated advertising, LAN support, and a social integration within their client.
More importantly, the developers behind the two games dominating the current E-Sports market are incredibly responsive and engage with their playerbase regularly. Riot, much like Blizzard, develops at a glacial pace, but they do so while, for the most part, keeping their customers in the loop and maintaining a positive relationship. Blizzard's quality of game has fallen off a cliff, they don't listen to literally anyone, and for their last four releases I would wager to say customer satisfaction has been majorly lacking.
What does this all have to do with Destiny's point, and ITG's reaction? Well everyone on the show agreed that Blizzard sucks, they aren't communicative, and that they would like changes to be made. However the crux of their argument seemed to be that Destiny went about advocating for that change in the wrong way. He was over the top. He was doom and gloom. He made up statistics. This is all fine, but their corrective measures seemed to be to tell Destiny that "This isn't the way to do it". The problem is that the way the ITG guys are advocating is the way they've been trying to do it for two years, and it clearly isn't working. So maybe Destiny made some mistakes in how he framed his argument, but his overall point about the need to somehow spur Blizzard into action remains. While the SC2 scene certainly isn't going to disappear it is going to be left further and further behind by existing and up and coming competitors who are being actively developed for, who do bring in casual players, who do monetize their product without a major up front cost, and who understand the power of integration within the game client itself.
So I ask those of you who care about the Starcraft scene, what can we do about it? It seems to be that now, when Blizzard is finishing development and starting their marketing campaign for a new, premium expansion, is the exact right time to apply a little pressure. They want to sell those boxes, yet they refuse to engage with the community in any meaningful sort of way and address the concerns that are dragging this game down. When, if not now, are we going to figure out a way to get the support from Blizzard we need? Or is it as IdrA said, a lost cause, Blizzard won't change no matter what we do, and we're all wasting our time playing/following/spectating on a game that has very little development support and no real hope of long term growth?
Or, you know, keep calling each other shitheads and worrying about who started it. Do you like LoL better than SC2? Your argument hinges on it, so I am curious. Really? After he wrote all that, that's what you respond with? He didn't even say he liked it better. The post is right there to re-read... That's why I am asking, he never said either way. But if he doesn't like LoL better, than his argument is invalid. He says riot is doing a better job, then he should like their game better right? common sense. So to your post I say what the heck man? That doesn't make any sense. You're assuming that believing a company is doing a better job means that you like their game more. It doesn't, I don't know where you got that. If the game isn't better then on what scale are they doing better? Perhaps there is something you don't understand... this is very basic... Don't try to talk to me like I don't understand what I'm saying. It really is simple. Believing a company is doing a better job at supporting and growing their product does NOT mean you prefer that game automatically. Do you not see that? I could say there are many companies who support their products better than Bliz, that does not mean I prefer those games over Bliz games. I like the games I like.
But since we are talking about an opinion, and this type of thing is only quantifiable by an opinion, than how on earth can one do better and produce worse? Your opinion matters because doing better is not quantifiable outside of anything outside of opinion.
You can say 'they put more money into their game', or 'they did x,y,z feature', but you can't say better. it has to be a better product to be better. Don't know how this is complicated.
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On October 24 2012 16:06 Blackhawk13 wrote:
Incontrol, I think you better do yourself a favor and call it a night on this thread. Nothing good can come out of posting here- especially while you're still heated.
he already did. i guess he realized that arguing, calling ppl idiots, and making bets with people on the internet ruins his already bad reputation.
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On October 24 2012 15:58 MuR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 15:41 MaestroSC wrote:On October 24 2012 15:37 MuR wrote:On October 24 2012 15:28 MaestroSC wrote:On October 24 2012 15:23 MuR wrote:On October 24 2012 14:58 MaestroSC wrote:On October 24 2012 14:33 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 14:28 MaestroSC wrote:
Destiny: Less people are watching SC2
DjWheat: WRONG! More people watch all things on twitchtv than before.
Didnt even acknowledge the question at all. im at roughly 1:20:00 in the vod if anyone wants to check...
He didnt acknowledge SC2 streams specifically at all, because Idra, Geoff, and PainUser ALL would have agreed with what Destiny said, but Wheat heard the question and substituted his own Wow did no one take elementary school math? So if I have 100 apples and I divide them evenly and put into 10 baskets. Then someone takes out all of the apples and doubles the number of apples, adds 20 extra baskets and spreads the apples out evenly in all of the baskets. Destiny: The number of apples have gone down. DjWheat: No, the number of apples have actually increased but there are less in each single basket. Dertiny: Oh really?! Well ask basket number 4 then if it has more apples in it! maybe because your from Sweden you didnt understand my basic english.... Destiny said "Less people are watching SC2" and Wheats response was "More people are watching twitchtv and video games" Destiny was talking about SC2 and Wheat said "but more people are watching other games" he didnt even address what Steven said... I am not saying that Wheat was wrong. I am not saying that spreading an equal number across a greater variety = less. I am saying, Steven was talking about SC2 stream counts. Wheat wasnt. Steven wasnt saying "nobody watches twitch" he was saying "people arent watching SC2 on twitch as much" which is true,, and Wheat ignored what he said, just like you did. Congrats on being unable to comprehend what both I and Steven said. Why are you so petty? The instance you are referring to, where Wheat "misinterpreted" what destiny said, was probably for the good, as he chose instead to elaborate on a more relevant point. By the way, I found the point in the VOD to which you are referring, and here is the dialogue. Destiny: Ya, well, compared to maybe a couple years ago, but stream viewership numbers for everything is down now compared to six months ago... And then, Wheat made his point about how viewership is now diffused amongst various games, etc, and that stream numbers overall have risen. If you're going to be pedantic, at least get it right. Also, I think you understand the math, but its significance eludes you. Because by "everything" he wasnt referring exclusively to SC2? Please see my post about context. Do you really think the man WHOSE MAIN POINT was "LoL IS GROWING AND SC2 IS DYING" is implying that ALL games/streams viewcounts are down? If you really believe that Steven was arguing for viewership about other games... then there is nothing I can do to help you understand anything. Congrats on using another quote out of context... you should be a journalist. Destiny was referring to SC2, I am aware of this, but you fabricated dialogue, which I corrected. Destiny's language was not so straightforward at that point, he said "everything", which is ambiguous, and it was misinterpreted by Wheat. The ironic thing here, my friend, is that you speak of context. If you had actually weighed in on the arguments, you would know that, despite this mishap in semantics, which is petty, DjWheat's retort was relevant to the overall argument. So you are correcting me with "you misquoted.... but you were right" And your second point is pretty much EVERONE's point.... DjWheat and Steven were arguing about different things...i feel like i said this in the first post of mine you quoted...
Steven was Arguing for SC2 viewership, Djwheat was arguing for game viewership (including ALL video games).Wheat's retort was relevant to HIS argument, but not Stevens. .... I think you're confused. Perhaps I can remedy this. Destiny is dramatic, and is suggesting that less viewership for SC2 streams is indicative of a dying scene, with no hope. DjWheat attempted to criticize this logical error by suggesting that stream numbers will naturally go down amongst a more diverse field of E-sport titles. He was, essentially, looking at the bigger picture, and suggesting that the stream numbers leveling off for Starcraft alone is not necessarily bad, given that e-sports as a whole is growing. It is a false dichotomy, to think that Starcraft must be number one, or it must be dead. So yes, his point about stream numbers going up for all twitch channels (all games), was in response to Destiny's point. You're ignoring his argument though, or dismissing it, thinking it is not relevant because of a stupid, petty mishap of words. Or perhaps you just didn't comprehend it?
Once again, Ill try to sum this up with a final post on this matter.
I completely understand Wheats point. Once again, Completely understand his point. Esports as a whole is growing.
Steven is arguing for ONE SPECIFIC TITLE IN ESPORTS. Destiny isnt saying "esports are dying" he is saying "sc2 is dying" and Wheats response, is "Well Esports as a whole is actually growing, people are watching other games now too"....
Esports growing, and gaining popularity does not mean SC2 is gaining popularity.
while it is somewhat relevant to the topic of Esports and streaming... it is not what steven was arguing about.
I am not saying that esports or SC2 are dying... I am saying that Steven said "SC2 is dying, look at how our stream counts have dropped off" and Wheat replied with "Esports are growing, not dying."
Esports =/= Starcraft 2.
Again, I am not saying I am on either side.... I am saying "Steven said SC2 stream counts are lower and falling" and Wheat replied with "Esports viewership as a whole is growing."
While Wheats argument can insinuate that with the growth of esports comes a sort of benefit to the starcraft 2 scene, It does not actually respond to Steven's statement of "Starcraft 2 viewership is down."
What you are saying is:
Wheat said that the viewership of ALL games are at an all time high currently. And this actually means that esports as a whole are growing, and since Starcraft 2 is a subcategory within Esports, it is actually growing and benefitting from people watching other games.
But it still =/= Steven was wrong in saying "Less people are watching SC2" which is how Wheat responded in the video/show. Wheat said "You are wrong, more people are watching streams than ever before".
My own PERSONAL argument was Wheat did not actually respond to Steven's question specifically. He addressed a completely different topic.... which is exactly what you wrote in your post... telling me I am wrong....
How else can you agree with me...while telling me im wrong... im more curious now than anything.
Moral of the story: Everyone says stupid shit when they are mad.... Evidence: See ItG episode 57... and every post in the ITG Thread after said episode.
But I will say that I am of the understanding that a person will show you who they REALLY are at their worst. Get someone Pissed off/Scared Shitless/Having nothing to fight for..... and they will show you who they really are in their response.
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On October 24 2012 16:08 1handsomE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 16:06 itiswhatitis wrote:On October 24 2012 16:04 1handsomE wrote:On October 24 2012 16:02 itiswhatitis wrote:On October 24 2012 16:00 1handsomE wrote:On October 24 2012 15:37 itiswhatitis wrote:On October 24 2012 15:35 1handsomE wrote:On October 24 2012 15:33 JPSke wrote:
Why don't we spend 14 more pages talking about bullshit and drama instead of addressing the real issue at hand.
SC2 is in comparative if not actual decline. It went from a flagship for E-sports to a major competitor to a somewhat nostalgic tertiary figure in 18 months. Its direct competitors have out-innovated it, out-marketed it, and out-positioned it with a free to play model, integrated advertising, LAN support, and a social integration within their client.
More importantly, the developers behind the two games dominating the current E-Sports market are incredibly responsive and engage with their playerbase regularly. Riot, much like Blizzard, develops at a glacial pace, but they do so while, for the most part, keeping their customers in the loop and maintaining a positive relationship. Blizzard's quality of game has fallen off a cliff, they don't listen to literally anyone, and for their last four releases I would wager to say customer satisfaction has been majorly lacking.
What does this all have to do with Destiny's point, and ITG's reaction? Well everyone on the show agreed that Blizzard sucks, they aren't communicative, and that they would like changes to be made. However the crux of their argument seemed to be that Destiny went about advocating for that change in the wrong way. He was over the top. He was doom and gloom. He made up statistics. This is all fine, but their corrective measures seemed to be to tell Destiny that "This isn't the way to do it". The problem is that the way the ITG guys are advocating is the way they've been trying to do it for two years, and it clearly isn't working. So maybe Destiny made some mistakes in how he framed his argument, but his overall point about the need to somehow spur Blizzard into action remains. While the SC2 scene certainly isn't going to disappear it is going to be left further and further behind by existing and up and coming competitors who are being actively developed for, who do bring in casual players, who do monetize their product without a major up front cost, and who understand the power of integration within the game client itself.
So I ask those of you who care about the Starcraft scene, what can we do about it? It seems to be that now, when Blizzard is finishing development and starting their marketing campaign for a new, premium expansion, is the exact right time to apply a little pressure. They want to sell those boxes, yet they refuse to engage with the community in any meaningful sort of way and address the concerns that are dragging this game down. When, if not now, are we going to figure out a way to get the support from Blizzard we need? Or is it as IdrA said, a lost cause, Blizzard won't change no matter what we do, and we're all wasting our time playing/following/spectating on a game that has very little development support and no real hope of long term growth?
Or, you know, keep calling each other shitheads and worrying about who started it. Do you like LoL better than SC2? Your argument hinges on it, so I am curious. Really? After he wrote all that, that's what you respond with? He didn't even say he liked it better. The post is right there to re-read... That's why I am asking, he never said either way. But if he doesn't like LoL better, than his argument is invalid. He says riot is doing a better job, then he should like their game better right? common sense. So to your post I say what the heck man? That doesn't make any sense. You're assuming that believing a company is doing a better job means that you like their game more. It doesn't, I don't know where you got that. If the game isn't better then on what scale are they doing better? Perhaps there is something you don't understand... this is very basic... Don't try to talk to me like I don't understand what I'm saying. It really is simple. Believing a company is doing a better job at supporting and growing their product does NOT mean you prefer that game automatically. Do you not see that? I could say there are many companies who support their products better than Bliz, that does not mean I prefer those games over Bliz games. I like the games I like. But since we are talking about an opinion, and this type of thing is only quantifiable by an opinion, than how on earth can one do better and produce worse? Your opinion matters because doing better is not quantifiable outside of anything outside of opinion. You can say 'they put more money into their game', or 'they did x,y,z feature', but you can't say better. it has to be a better product to be better. Don't know how this is complicated.
Your unnecessary condescension is getting on my nerves. You aren't as smart as you think you are and you are arguing pointless semantics while ignoring my point. Believing a company HANDLES their game better does not mean you think they made a better game. Please stop with all the "it's simple stuff" crap, I obviously do understand what you are saying, you've not said one thing that was over my head.
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On October 24 2012 16:03 TheExile19 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 15:57 TheDraken wrote:On October 24 2012 15:54 TheExile19 wrote:On October 24 2012 15:49 TheDraken wrote:On October 24 2012 15:19 TheExile19 wrote:On October 24 2012 15:11 TheDraken wrote:
there was no substance. the only thing coming out of the "core" sc2 community is a bunch of hollow garbage. destiny kept trying to get people to fucking figure that out and these two "elite figureheads" of the community did their usual and inanely stood by their egos.
I just want you to understand that nobody, not destiny, not reddit or the scene in general benefits from tedious fanboy posts like these. there is literally nothing of substance, somewhat ironically, in what you're saying to the point where I can't even hazard a guess as to what you could mean. I legitimately feel bad when a destiny supporter accuses other personalities of ego worship when the man's own ego got him onto the show last minute to be "insulted" in the first place. if you don't understand what people post then don't bother replying. you're spotlighting your ignorance to me like it's somehow to your benefit. thank you anyway for your self-beration. makes it easier for me. I understand you in that we speak the same language but not in what you actually refer to; I'm not going to bother engaging you when you speak in opaque generalities. I only bothered to respond because I personally find you laughable but since I also know what it's like to have been a teenager with a passion, I figured I would give you some helpful tips on how to provoke the actual argument and legitimate attention you so desperately yearn for. that's called being out of the loop. don't try to be that guy that jumps into the circle and have an opinion. you realize I've been here arguing for pages before you turned up, correct? I mean, holy shit, at least make me work for these.
doesn't matter if you started the damn thread. tell me more about how many incontrol posts you've wanked over.
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Wow what happened this is generating more posts than the SlayerS razer article
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On October 24 2012 16:06 Scrabo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 16:04 TheWorldToCome wrote:
Wheat's analogy with American Idol/Breaking Bad was literally the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Don't ruin breaking bad trying to get the same viewing numbers as American Idol. You don't have to be the biggest show to still be a great show.
breaking bad is a great show, SC2 is not a great game. but this is all opinion of course, which is why DJs wheat analogy was extremly stupid. some ppl will say that american idol>breaking bad. he made that analogy on the assumption that everyone will say breaking bad is a great show, which not everyone agree with obviously.
american idol has more viewers for a reason and breaking bad has less viewers for a reason. usually more ppl will flow towards a show with better quality and entertainment, thus more viewers. LoL has better quality than SC2. but the real sad part is that SC2 is purposely lowering there quality for these stupid exanspansion packs. it was clear what there intentions were ever since the day that decided to release SC2 in 3 parts. release a unfinished game and then 6 years later complete the game. that is shit tier quality of a product.
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I still don't understand why we are trying to compare a free to play model, micro transaction, MOBA game like LOL with an RTS that uses a model like SC2 with expansions at cost. These are two completely different games, a larger majority of people enjoy instant gratification spectator games like LOL that are free, action occurs a bit more frequently in most matches and incorporates more then 2 players during a single match. Of course they will have more viewership this is nothing more then common sense.
Just because LOL is growing and SC2 is on a slight decline doesn't mean SC2 is done. Like iNcontroL said it's the nature of the beast with an RTS.
On that note, Destiny deserved the treatment he got for the wildly inaccurate statistics and assumptions he's making about the game and "how to fix it", which in themselves paint a negative light on the future of the game only enforcing the "jump ship" attitude. The whole SOTG crew was justified in their reactions with how outlandish and doomsayer-like the post was.
Not to mention the fact that before things got "dirty" iNcontroL and Idra continually agreed with Destiny that Blizzard is an issue BUT it's not something that will change, so why beat a dead horse? Move on Destiny, and do what you can via tournaments, shows, streaming, community events, to continue to grow the community through word of mouth and friends. Nothing will grow a game more then the recommendation or insistence of a friend. Not a company itself.
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Incontrol you like to make funny faces and wierd noises, but not really making sens. Concentrating only on negaiing all that Destiny says.
THAT high five with Idra.. You sure showed Destiny how badass you are. Idra getting red after all he said really sums it all up.
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What the hell is happening to SC2...Slayers, this...
Quite shocking to see all that yelling though..
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On October 24 2012 16:10 itiswhatitis wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 16:08 1handsomE wrote:On October 24 2012 16:06 itiswhatitis wrote:On October 24 2012 16:04 1handsomE wrote:On October 24 2012 16:02 itiswhatitis wrote:On October 24 2012 16:00 1handsomE wrote:On October 24 2012 15:37 itiswhatitis wrote:On October 24 2012 15:35 1handsomE wrote:On October 24 2012 15:33 JPSke wrote:
Why don't we spend 14 more pages talking about bullshit and drama instead of addressing the real issue at hand.
SC2 is in comparative if not actual decline. It went from a flagship for E-sports to a major competitor to a somewhat nostalgic tertiary figure in 18 months. Its direct competitors have out-innovated it, out-marketed it, and out-positioned it with a free to play model, integrated advertising, LAN support, and a social integration within their client.
More importantly, the developers behind the two games dominating the current E-Sports market are incredibly responsive and engage with their playerbase regularly. Riot, much like Blizzard, develops at a glacial pace, but they do so while, for the most part, keeping their customers in the loop and maintaining a positive relationship. Blizzard's quality of game has fallen off a cliff, they don't listen to literally anyone, and for their last four releases I would wager to say customer satisfaction has been majorly lacking.
What does this all have to do with Destiny's point, and ITG's reaction? Well everyone on the show agreed that Blizzard sucks, they aren't communicative, and that they would like changes to be made. However the crux of their argument seemed to be that Destiny went about advocating for that change in the wrong way. He was over the top. He was doom and gloom. He made up statistics. This is all fine, but their corrective measures seemed to be to tell Destiny that "This isn't the way to do it". The problem is that the way the ITG guys are advocating is the way they've been trying to do it for two years, and it clearly isn't working. So maybe Destiny made some mistakes in how he framed his argument, but his overall point about the need to somehow spur Blizzard into action remains. While the SC2 scene certainly isn't going to disappear it is going to be left further and further behind by existing and up and coming competitors who are being actively developed for, who do bring in casual players, who do monetize their product without a major up front cost, and who understand the power of integration within the game client itself.
So I ask those of you who care about the Starcraft scene, what can we do about it? It seems to be that now, when Blizzard is finishing development and starting their marketing campaign for a new, premium expansion, is the exact right time to apply a little pressure. They want to sell those boxes, yet they refuse to engage with the community in any meaningful sort of way and address the concerns that are dragging this game down. When, if not now, are we going to figure out a way to get the support from Blizzard we need? Or is it as IdrA said, a lost cause, Blizzard won't change no matter what we do, and we're all wasting our time playing/following/spectating on a game that has very little development support and no real hope of long term growth?
Or, you know, keep calling each other shitheads and worrying about who started it. Do you like LoL better than SC2? Your argument hinges on it, so I am curious. Really? After he wrote all that, that's what you respond with? He didn't even say he liked it better. The post is right there to re-read... That's why I am asking, he never said either way. But if he doesn't like LoL better, than his argument is invalid. He says riot is doing a better job, then he should like their game better right? common sense. So to your post I say what the heck man? That doesn't make any sense. You're assuming that believing a company is doing a better job means that you like their game more. It doesn't, I don't know where you got that. If the game isn't better then on what scale are they doing better? Perhaps there is something you don't understand... this is very basic... Don't try to talk to me like I don't understand what I'm saying. It really is simple. Believing a company is doing a better job at supporting and growing their product does NOT mean you prefer that game automatically. Do you not see that? I could say there are many companies who support their products better than Bliz, that does not mean I prefer those games over Bliz games. I like the games I like. But since we are talking about an opinion, and this type of thing is only quantifiable by an opinion, than how on earth can one do better and produce worse? Your opinion matters because doing better is not quantifiable outside of anything outside of opinion. You can say 'they put more money into their game', or 'they did x,y,z feature', but you can't say better. it has to be a better product to be better. Don't know how this is complicated. Your unnecessary condescension is getting on my nerves. You aren't as smart as you think you are and you are arguing pointless semantics while ignoring my point. Believing a company HANDLES their game better does not mean you think they made a better game. Please stop with all the "it's simple stuff" crap, I obviously do understand what you are saying, you've not said one thing that was over my head.
In truth, I think you are ignoring my point. I am saying 'how are you quantifying this?' To me, it seems like if they 'handled' it better, they would produce a 'better' game.
Like I said before, you can say 'they put more money', or 'they have x,y,z feature', but using generalizations on opinions requires you to like the end product better. Otherwise your generalization about them 'handling it better' is invalid. Which is what I was saying in the very first place.
EDIT: And the implied piece of this argument is that the end product, not the means to get there is all that matters. And if you like SC2 more than LoL does it matter if LoL is pumping money into the game/ doing x,y,z feature? The clear answer is, no.
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What happen is that when all the drama kicks off the worst dregs of the community come out to lap it all up. The sensible people go to bed. This shit will have blown over in a day like it always does. The sky will still be there, SC2 will not be dead, and incontrol will still have all his fans.
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On October 24 2012 15:59 JPSke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 15:48 TheExile19 wrote:
jpske I was on board with you until you resorted in the end to the same tiresome all-or-nothing gambit that destiny espouses. idra never went so far as to say supporting sc2 was a waste of time just because we might face a strong, more popular competitor in a notably populist game, that's all you. furthermore, comparative decline is not a decline in the scene or how well SC2 is actually doing but a reactionary stance to the runaway success of league, and honestly I wasn't even aware LoL was "out-innovating, out-marketing" anybody. it simply has an inherent casual appeal, not really the same thing.
Are you kidding? "Inherent casual appeal" is exactly what innovation and marketing is all about. It's all about enhancing the consumer experience. You can look down on it all you want but those two games have far, far superior initial experiences for players than this game does. They took a competitive environment, made it cartoony and fun, got it to run on mediocre PCs, allowed people to dip their toes in without paying a dime, made them WANT to spend ten dollars on a freaking skin, and created the biggest revolution in the PC gaming industry since WoW. And you don't want to learn any lessons from that? And I say supporting SC2 in its current form is something of a waste of time because if the developer doesn't care enough to improve its product why am I spending hours and cash doing so myself? Why should I buy HOTS? Why should I keep watching a game that is almost impossible for me to play with my friends? If Blizzard isn't going to improve my experience why should I keep supporting them? I will though, because I believe it is a great game. It just deserves better. To accept stagnation when everyone around you is rapidly evolving with the times is ludicrous to me.
no, inherent casual appeal is moba vs. RTS and the similarly inherent properties of both games related to the APM restrictions, number of players on a team (especially the projection involved in this: "well, my team sucked but I don't. let's keep playing!" and general mechanics. you're welcome to praise the same addictive, lame microtransactional decisions from riot that people make fun of in WoW for being empty, soulless corporate tactics if you like, I find them juvenile personally but hey, at long as the overall e-sports scene grows via proximity to league I'll put up with the hypocrisy. most of these braindead palette swap sales only work in league because of the feeling of personal connection to playing certain champs, I would be very interested in hearing a similar model for SC2 that doesn't come off as derivative and ridiculous.
because they are improving it in HOTS? because it's a game you like? because painfully casual marketing doesn't sway you?
the question you really need to be asking is how much of the stagnation we see is inherent to the genre model that we want to see from SC2, i.e. a highly competitive individual sport that retains the same competitive nature and work ethic towards improving your game. I've long had a feeling that the answer isn't going to be one anyone is happy with.
edit: please note most of my observations regarding MOBA's are solely related to league. I understand DOTA2, its predecessors and other notable names within the genre can't be handwaved as casual games so easily, but I feel that most discussions of this nature, of the perception of genre dominance, as of now really only involve league and its viewer base.
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Seemed like both sides just couldn't grasp what the other was saying. It would've been nice to hear a chill discussion about the topic but I could tell before Destiny called in where it was headed. I usually love the djWHEAT rants too but this one kinda missed the mark. Hopefully djWHEAT can figure out a way to have more of these discussions (not just about this topic) with all parties involved without it going crazy (props to painuser!).
Anyway, thanks for the show and make some time for Goatlust next episode!
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On October 24 2012 16:11 Whatson wrote:
Wow what happened this is generating more posts than the SlayerS razer article
They talked about Destiny's rant on ITG and got Destiny on, there was loud arguments, then some personal insults, then Destiny parted with a shot about how IdrA/Incontrol don't win anymore and then left the stream. Right after Wheat started yelling really loudly about what an immature idiot Destiny was. Pretty much everyone but Painuser just insulted each other for about 10 minutes.
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On October 24 2012 16:11 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 16:06 Scrabo wrote:On October 24 2012 16:04 TheWorldToCome wrote:
Wheat's analogy with American Idol/Breaking Bad was literally the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Don't ruin breaking bad trying to get the same viewing numbers as American Idol. You don't have to be the biggest show to still be a great show. breaking bad is a great show, SC2 is not a great game. but this is all opinion of course, which is why DJs wheat analogy was extremly stupid. some ppl will say that american idol>breaking bad.
That and they are both as accessible as one another in terms of being free to watch. This is what SC2 and LoL do not have in common, since LoL is much more of a smooth and friendly gaming experience (despite the fact that they both cater to different audiences in the way that Breaking bad and American Idol do, SC2 could do a LOT to improve in this aspect).
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Geoff, You were ALL wrong in someway or another in the situation. Less so for PainUser. Sure Destiny was being pretty ridiculous but you guys were a little off to. Don't understand the multiple posts to justify anything and all these subjective opinions.
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EPT
