EPTOn October 01 2011 20:23 cybertopo wrote:
Yes, I only listen to these in audio format, where is it? The show was on tuesday :S
Yes, I only listen to these in audio format, where is it? The show was on tuesday :S
Yeah same here. What the fuck ? =)
[Show] Inside The Game - Official Thread - Page 142
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eltese
Sweden369 Posts
Yeah same here. What the fuck ? =) | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On October 01 2011 18:56 Hider wrote: BlCabeldank: I am not really gonna reply to your post, because honestly there are just to much nonsense in it (like when you dont understand the difference between stupid hyphothetical assumptions and realistic assumption, or when you referering to me as a silver league player, even though your plat, and I am obv. not) . You have 1 point though I would like to adress: "maybe he didn't rebuddle because maybe he thought it was the right thing to do?" Well they are tryin to debate if the game is balanced/imbalanced or not. I kinda stated how I felt they should have discussed. Relying on low sample size statistics and comments like "Idra being Idra" really doesn't add anything to the discussions. And honestly Incontrol probably knows this, but he (prob.) just feels like he cant comepete with Idra in a game theoretic discussion. hider you can be critical all you want but don't make assumptions about me or idra.. you actually don't know us at all. I can't compete with idra on a game theoretic discussion? Wtf? Where do you come up with that? IdrA is literally famous for having one of the most close-minded opinions of game balance/theory humanly possible given how much he plays. It's actually outstanding the level of ignorance he wields on the subject of game balance/theory. His understanding of the game is amazing but separating that from his bias and then discussing it with him is impossible. I've given you far too much time though.. you keep going with these little personal attacks to me and it's obvious you are some huge IdrA fan so I will leave you to your close-mindedness. | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1601 Posts
On October 02 2011 01:42 iNcontroL wrote: hider you can be critical all you want but don't make assumptions about me or idra.. you actually don't know us at all. I can't compete with idra on a game theoretic discussion? Wtf? Where do you come up with that? IdrA is literally famous for having one of the most close-minded opinions of game balance/theory humanly possible given how much he plays. It's actually outstanding the level of ignorance he wields on the subject of game balance/theory. His understanding of the game is amazing but separating that from his bias and then discussing it with him is impossible. I've given you far too much time though.. you keep going with these little personal attacks to me and it's obvious you are some huge IdrA fan so I will leave you to your close-mindedness. === SPOILERS BELOW === While I agree that he is close-minded and his arguments tend to be very simplistic you overvalued the play of Code S players and he also overvalued the Code A players. Reason why current protoss are losing - Relying on 1.5 base timing attacks. But this can be seen in all races because some players are getting how the game should be played solid play to get 3-4-5-6 base, full upgrades, different tech paths. When the 1.5 base timing attack hits the macro player it can / should be scary. I think many players aren't doing enough to slow that attack, but that is for another time. After that attack though if you're still alive with a full 2 base economy assuming both players are of the same skill level the macro player should always win because you now have more economy and you can continuously harass while obtaining an even larger economic lead. This can be seen in all races 1-2 base timing attacks. Zergs 2 base infestor. Terrans 2Base MM. Hell even the 1:1:1 was dominated by Genius in the team league. Out of all the matches for GSL I think the first 2 games of LiquidHero vs SlayersYugioh are pretty good examples. Game 1: Ling Roach rush is thwarted lets protoss air harass preventing the 3rd for some time, builds his own 3rd, into colossi stalker 1/1 upgrades. Air units force hydras which colossi slaughter. Game 2: Zealot Sentry Push is DESTROYED by infestors. Which then allows the counter infestor push to do decent damage with very little ling/roach support. Slowing the 3rd lowering the gateway count. Allowing corruptors to kill off colossi easily which leaves more corrupors to morph into broodlords closing out the game. Sure each game is a tad bit more complex than how I stated it, but I still don't think any stats prove racial imbalance it just seems like player imbalance. Perhaps less protoss because there hasn't been a truly great protoss yet to show them the way. MC was a timing player look where he is now. | ||
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DARKHYDRA
United States303 Posts
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Wheva
United States13 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On October 02 2011 01:42 iNcontroL wrote: hider you can be critical all you want but don't make assumptions about me or idra.. you actually don't know us at all. I can't compete with idra on a game theoretic discussion? Wtf? Where do you come up with that? IdrA is literally famous for having one of the most close-minded opinions of game balance/theory humanly possible given how much he plays. It's actually outstanding the level of ignorance he wields on the subject of game balance/theory. His understanding of the game is amazing but separating that from his bias and then discussing it with him is impossible. I've given you far too much time though.. you keep going with these little personal attacks to me and it's obvious you are some huge IdrA fan so I will leave you to your close-mindedness. I understand your points, but your not really adressing my criticism of your gameknowledge/the way you discuss. Yes i know what idra is famous for, but its completely irrelevant for this discussion. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On October 02 2011 02:44 NoobSkills wrote: === SPOILERS BELOW === While I agree that he is close-minded and his arguments tend to be very simplistic you overvalued the play of Code S players and he also overvalued the Code A players. Reason why current protoss are losing - Relying on 1.5 base timing attacks. But this can be seen in all races because some players are getting how the game should be played solid play to get 3-4-5-6 base, full upgrades, different tech paths. When the 1.5 base timing attack hits the macro player it can / should be scary. I think many players aren't doing enough to slow that attack, but that is for another time. After that attack though if you're still alive with a full 2 base economy assuming both players are of the same skill level the macro player should always win because you now have more economy and you can continuously harass while obtaining an even larger economic lead. This can be seen in all races 1-2 base timing attacks. Zergs 2 base infestor. Terrans 2Base MM. Hell even the 1:1:1 was dominated by Genius in the team league. Out of all the matches for GSL I think the first 2 games of LiquidHero vs SlayersYugioh are pretty good examples. Game 1: Ling Roach rush is thwarted lets protoss air harass preventing the 3rd for some time, builds his own 3rd, into colossi stalker 1/1 upgrades. Air units force hydras which colossi slaughter. Game 2: Zealot Sentry Push is DESTROYED by infestors. Which then allows the counter infestor push to do decent damage with very little ling/roach support. Slowing the 3rd lowering the gateway count. Allowing corruptors to kill off colossi easily which leaves more corrupors to morph into broodlords closing out the game. Sure each game is a tad bit more complex than how I stated it, but I still don't think any stats prove racial imbalance it just seems like player imbalance. Perhaps less protoss because there hasn't been a truly great protoss yet to show them the way. MC was a timing player look where he is now. I think you by this post might just have shown a higher understanding of the metagame in korea pvz than incontrol. I have no idea whether what you said is true, but by making these kind of posts, it becomes possible for the other part who disagrees with you to somewhat easily understand where he thinks your wrong and create counterarguments. This just creates a more organized discussions and raises the level og the discussion. Btw Idra is definitely very simplistic, but 1) It is a talkshow with limited time, 2) If he makes one statement that is 1 generally true, but has a exceptions, I dont really think its his responsbilities to mention these exceptions. He is definitely very biased, and obv. is representing the zerg side. | ||
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OtterBomb
United Kingdom33 Posts
I understand that you're having problems, but if the MLG player didn't suck so much in the first place the current Blip.tv concern you mention would not be an issue. Good luck getting it sorted. | ||
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monXikk
Poland742 Posts
On October 03 2011 22:09 OtterBomb wrote: I don't want to be another person being mean about this, so I'll just say I'm a long-term fan of SOTG, I missed it a lot during its recent break, and now that it's back I've been looking forward to it every week - so I'm pretty disappointed that after almost a week the VOD still isn't up. I could've watched it live, but I thought I could expect a speedy VOD like usual :\ Wrong thread mate. Its Inside the game not State of the game ;p | ||
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OtterBomb
United Kingdom33 Posts
On October 03 2011 22:11 monXikk wrote: Wrong thread mate. Its Inside the game not State of the game ;p Oh lordy, this was silly. But I suppose it's almost relevent here too given the strangely symbiotic delay between the two shows this week! | ||
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legatus legionis
Netherlands559 Posts
sorry :/ | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On October 03 2011 05:54 Hider wrote: I think you by this post might just have shown a higher understanding of the metagame in korea pvz than incontrol. I have no idea whether what you said is true, but by making these kind of posts, it becomes possible for the other part who disagrees with you to somewhat easily understand where he thinks your wrong and create counterarguments. This just creates a more organized discussions and raises the level og the discussion. Btw Idra is definitely very simplistic, but 1) It is a talkshow with limited time, 2) If he makes one statement that is 1 generally true, but has a exceptions, I dont really think its his responsbilities to mention these exceptions. He is definitely very biased, and obv. is representing the zerg side. Dude: it's a talkshow. If you don't like what one of the hosts has to say, you're more than entitled to hold your opinion on the matter, but you don't need to come onto the forums spouting that he knows nothing or that he's an idiot or whatever. And you're in no real position to say what he does or does not know about the game. So calm down, relax, and stop hating. If it bothers you that much, don't watch the show. | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1601 Posts
On October 03 2011 05:54 Hider wrote: I think you by this post might just have shown a higher understanding of the metagame in korea pvz than incontrol. I have no idea whether what you said is true, but by making these kind of posts, it becomes possible for the other part who disagrees with you to somewhat easily understand where he thinks your wrong and create counterarguments. This just creates a more organized discussions and raises the level og the discussion. Btw Idra is definitely very simplistic, but 1) It is a talkshow with limited time, 2) If he makes one statement that is 1 generally true, but has a exceptions, I dont really think its his responsbilities to mention these exceptions. He is definitely very biased, and obv. is representing the zerg side. I watch the same matches he does. It isn't even the metagame of a certain match up. If you try a timing push and actually attack with it (just because you can) you will usually fail. Now, if you timing push a zerg to force lings and he actually doesn't make lings then sure push, but your plan shouldn't be to win with that, but to slow down upgrades, tech, expansions, ect while getting up your own of those items. Incontrol's view on the subject like Idra's is biased. They don't want to point out specific examples, but rather post game statistics that irrelevant to the subject at hand. And I do really hope that he and others catch on quickly because the type of play that I suggest makes for amazing matches perhaps nearly as amazing as broodwar matches. If you're the first to hammer out a safe build, forces some enemy responses, allows for harass, focuses on being stronger in economy, upgrades, tech, production in the late game could snag an EASY MLG grand championship. Oh well though this probably won't happen before the next game comes out, so we're shit out of luck. | ||
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legatus legionis
Netherlands559 Posts
I can understand why people are talking about that exact part of the discussion between the two EG teammates. It's probably not worth much for me to say this but rarely do I consciously decide to stop listening when something happens. That episode I did since it wasn't really going anywhere and it purely has to do with the way you guys engaged each other. You have a discussion together and you need to create understanding between all the parties involved. That was really lacking because it became a `meta-discussion`. A discussion on how to engage in a discussion. What valid ways to enter are etc. In the past I have had a lot of trouble when I’m engaged in this because you honestly believe you are able to get your vision and your view across. But in these cases when they occur it is possible the other person is just not open for that and neither are you for his, so you can keep banging on the door all you want, it’s not going to open. An easy prominent example of this would be a stereotypical discussion about religion. That’s the lesson a good friend of mine gave me. To realize that those situations exist and the only way to proceed is to not proceed at all. I cannot translate the term to English but it’s like `a stalemate of minds.` It is because I wasn’t able to realize when I should stop. Because my belief that I’am able to make a compelling argument and convince someone was so sincere and strong, I would at times continue hammering all kinds of angles until they would have to display an outburst of emotion (rage) for me to realize it was in my best interest to call it quits. It honestly doesn’t matter which side I was parting with. Whose argument I found compelling and who’s I didn’t. It’s probably a good discussion to have (about how to discuss or act when a `stalemate` occurs) and it will soon happen in the State of the Game thread as well and maybe other places thereafter. On State of the Game we’ve had it occur before and it’s only natural, but for a while discussions there aren't very much engaging each other, which has been a complaint for many weeks. When you will work on improving that you will probably overdo it not only creating conflict but situations like these. And for that I think something like a guideline or a break moment. A recap, or an early quits is very good. Otherwise it can keep going on forever and I don’t think it’s fair to put this responsibility on the host. Even though it partially should, like everyone involved. In case I have been ambiguous which I’ve more than likely have been and thus lost a big part of my point. Having a discussion continue in such a way should be something that becomes unacceptable. It is the same as continuing to bang your head on the door, rather than to stop and realize a different way needs to be found to get across the obstacle. I feel you should stop hurting yourself too (because you get incredibly emotional and filled with adrenaline during it, which also hurts your ability to think and put out what you actually belief, this has happened in the state of the game discussion regarding forum posting, which spawned the teamliquid pro sub forum if I’m not mistaken. One of the participants actually stated afterwards something along the lines that he was arguing on points he didn’t even disagree with or something, because of it being so hormone driven and or so I think it is). So now I’ve totally gone every which way, I’ll just hope at least some of the points get across. The text is not really serving a specific purpose anymore but in a general sense I believe there are still some points of interest. If there is anything to take away it’s to try and just not even have a discussion like that the moment it is clear what type it is. And that’s not to say the content isn’t good, something which you cannot even establish if it is because you will pretty much not or never be able to come together on a point (which is totally fine), as long as you continue in that way. I really love all the personalities and I got the munchies for the content produced. So I only mean the best and try to provide some sort of outlook for the future because I care. I’m super excited with djWHEAT’s announcement and it’s gonna be awesome. | ||
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TOCHMY
Sweden1692 Posts
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shiverNZ
New Zealand2 Posts
Does anyone else get the same? | ||
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nath
United States1788 Posts
On October 03 2011 22:52 NoobSkills wrote: I watch the same matches he does. It isn't even the metagame of a certain match up. If you try a timing push and actually attack with it (just because you can) you will usually fail. Now, if you timing push a zerg to force lings and he actually doesn't make lings then sure push, but your plan shouldn't be to win with that, but to slow down upgrades, tech, expansions, ect while getting up your own of those items. Incontrol's view on the subject like Idra's is biased. They don't want to point out specific examples, but rather post game statistics that irrelevant to the subject at hand. And I do really hope that he and others catch on quickly because the type of play that I suggest makes for amazing matches perhaps nearly as amazing as broodwar matches. If you're the first to hammer out a safe build, forces some enemy responses, allows for harass, focuses on being stronger in economy, upgrades, tech, production in the late game could snag an EASY MLG grand championship. Oh well though this probably won't happen before the next game comes out, so we're shit out of luck. "If you're the first to hammer out a safe build, forces some enemy responses, allows for harass, focuses on being stronger in economy, upgrades, tech, production in the late game could snag an EASY MLG grand championship." this is why it upsets me that tyler doesnt practice, if he did, he'd be that guy. ;( | ||
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Cajun2k1
Netherlands399 Posts
I can't compete with idra on a game theoretic discussion? Wtf? Where do you come up with that? IdrA is literally famous for having one of the most close-minded opinions of game balance/theory humanly possible given how much he plays. It's actually outstanding the level of ignorance he wields on the subject of game balance/theory. His understanding of the game is amazing but separating that from his bias and then discussing it with him is impossible. I've given you far too much time though.. you keep going with these little personal attacks to me and it's obvious you are some huge IdrA fan so I will leave you to your close-mindedness. Don't want to extend the discussion but would like to comment on Idra's ability to discuss the game. He plays alot indeed, but for what I know, only as Zerg. When he casts games he stated at least once he has less understanding of TvP, and the mirror matches, which is fully understandable. So maybe he doesn't consider the game structure in that matchup, which maybe affects the mechanics of ZvX. Because when he casts a ZvX his casting is really indepth and accurate. So I want to defend Idra in this particular instance. | ||
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Thugtronik
New Zealand452 Posts
On October 04 2011 05:44 shiverNZ wrote: Looks like the MP3 for the last show is up, but it only seems to have the first 45 minutes. Does anyone else get the same? yup i'm getting this also. hopefully part 2 is up soon | ||
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DARKHYDRA
United States303 Posts
On October 04 2011 05:44 shiverNZ wrote: Looks like the MP3 for the last show is up, but it only seems to have the first 45 minutes. Does anyone else get the same? Same here. I keep checking back for a part 2 but nothin. I was starting to think that it was the whole show and they just called it quits early. | ||
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