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Russian Federation88 Posts
I found a couple of tricks with Starcraft's pathfinding (probably I'm not first but anyway ^_^). They allows you to:
- sneaky check opponents location and expansion - in some circumstance know about destructible rocks fall
updates
- you can use any unit (not only worker) to do any of this - "closed areas" include walled-in Terran's base, so you can know when supply depot is down - difference in worst case (when I find opponent on 3th possible location) on Delta Quadrant is about 15 seconds compared to "normal" way to scout.
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Wow wtf 0.o
This is a great find, especially with the exe.
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Yes, units having "perfect" pathfinding even though you haven't scouted has been known for a while.
Your trick of using waypoints to see if the worker paths slightly "off track" however is new to me, nice find!
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OMG blind ProxyGates incoming
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I must say, his voice is quite sultry.
Iv been waiting for someone to put up a good video like this. Im sure pros could gain some cool advantages with this.
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Well, this is pretty evil for cannon rushes and just scouting in General, I really hope Blizzard updates the path finding engine to fix this. I don't think that this is meant to be, nor that it should be in the game.
Uhm wait 1 sec, so how much faster can you actually scout your opponent on a 4 player map like tal darim with this?
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Wow, sweet. That is really nice and quite ingenuitive.
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Wow, finding the expansion and main is pretty unbelievable. It takes a keen eye to notice the slight change in direction, but it will definitely be used in games if its not patched. Time to start using it myself!
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Knowing that the opponent walled according to the scouting path of your drone is quite evident, but I had not thought at all about the other uses of the pathing system you describe, they are really clever!
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Really cool, thanks for the video. I knew that the pathfinding could be exploited in terms of ramp blocks, but didn't think of the other applications brought up in the video. I'm not entirely sure which side of the fence I'm on in terms of if this should be changed or not, for I think it's kind of neat that players can use little tricks like this (BW was filled of random tricks itself, as we all know), but at the same time it's a bit... Broken.
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Imagine some pro using this trick in a tournamentgame.. Ppl that dont know this trick will be hella confused and blame the pro for hacking.
Hope Blizzard will fix this.
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Russian Federation88 Posts
On May 02 2011 23:05 Despicatus wrote: Well, this is pretty evil for cannon rushes and just scouting in General, I really hope Blizzard updates the path finding engine to fix this. I don't think that this is meant to be, nor that it should be in the game.
Uhm wait 1 sec, so how much faster can you actually scout your opponent on a 4 player map like tal darim with this?
I'm not sure. Probably difference is not large. But sometimes 3 seconds is a difference between "I'm in" and "marine is out".
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This only works when there's a clear path between you and the obstacle you're trying to find, and that's not the case on a lot of maps. What I mean is that you need line of sight to your opponent's expo to "proxy scout" it.
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United Arab Emirates660 Posts
Wow needs to be patched ASAP, great find =>.
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Incredible find. Just incredible.
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The great thing about this trick is that your opponent won't be able to notice that he's been scouted unless he places a building near the ramp.
Terran and Protoss will be as easily spotted as Zerg.
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Really cool tricks u have find , stuff like that will probably get patched tho.
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Russian Federation88 Posts
On May 02 2011 23:15 hugman wrote: This only works when there's a clear path between you and the obstacle you're trying to find, and that's not the case on a lot of maps. What I mean is that you need line of sight to your opponent's expo to "proxy scout" it.
Definitely. Any ramp on path nullifies the difference in patches "with" and "without" Nexus.
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Program wise this might be very hard to fix without bugging other pathfinding stuff :/
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On May 02 2011 23:15 hugman wrote: This only works when there's a clear path between you and the obstacle you're trying to find, and that's not the case on a lot of maps. What I mean is that you need line of sight to your opponent's expo to "proxy scout" it.
Nevertheless, I still don't understand why unit pathfinding is done ahead of vision.
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Cool trick. My favorite pathfinder trick is putting a zealot in my mineral line then putting my probes on stop. It males an artificial choke for the zealots.
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On May 02 2011 23:05 Despicatus wrote: Well, this is pretty evil for cannon rushes and just scouting in General, I really hope Blizzard updates the path finding engine to fix this. I don't think that this is meant to be, nor that it should be in the game.
Uhm wait 1 sec, so how much faster can you actually scout your opponent on a 4 player map like tal darim with this?
It's not so much the "1 second" faster, it's that there are multiple spawn locations and the player never see's a probe wander in his base; thus there never is a missing probe to make him check around his base. It gives cannon rushers a HUGE advantage to get a "blind scout" as they will almost always get the pylon completely done.
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On May 02 2011 23:18 Talho wrote: Program wise this might be very hard to fix without bugging other pathfinding stuff :/
I don't think it should be that difficult to base pathfinding on what's been scouted and always treat unscouted areas as empty.
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Wow this is like advanced tricks.
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Russian Federation88 Posts
On May 02 2011 23:24 fiskrens wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 23:18 Talho wrote: Program wise this might be very hard to fix without bugging other pathfinding stuff :/ I don't think it should be that difficult to base pathfinding on what's been scouted and always treat unscouted areas as empty.
It's definitely not so simple but it's probable will not require big powers to recalculate path as new building appears / disappears within unit vision.
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On May 02 2011 23:15 PaPoolee wrote: Wow needs to be patched ASAP, great find =>.
why?
Nice find!
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On May 02 2011 23:18 warshop wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 23:15 hugman wrote: This only works when there's a clear path between you and the obstacle you're trying to find, and that's not the case on a lot of maps. What I mean is that you need line of sight to your opponent's expo to "proxy scout" it. Nevertheless, I still don't understand why unit pathfinding is done ahead of vision.
Pathfinding is very expensive to compute. If you would go via vision (unit vision or overall vision btw?) you would need to constantly check (whenever vision has changed) if there is a better path available. For every unit moving on the field. I currently dont know if it updates at all (i.e. when a supply depot is lowered / raised) or if unit just computes the path once.
On May 02 2011 23:24 Ipp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 23:05 Despicatus wrote: Well, this is pretty evil for cannon rushes and just scouting in General, I really hope Blizzard updates the path finding engine to fix this. I don't think that this is meant to be, nor that it should be in the game.
Uhm wait 1 sec, so how much faster can you actually scout your opponent on a 4 player map like tal darim with this? It's not so much the "1 second" faster, it's that there are multiple spawn locations and the player never see's a probe wander in his base; thus there never is a missing probe to make him check around his base. It gives cannon rushers a HUGE advantage to get a "blind scout" as they will almost always get the pylon completely done.
Depending on the spawn location (i.e. Metalopolis 3) your scouting probe could look at the minerals and see if they're being mined without the mining player seeing the probe. So I dont really see that much of a change.
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Hmm wow thats interesting.
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On May 02 2011 23:18 Talho wrote: Program wise this might be very hard to fix without bugging other pathfinding stuff :/ Removing the pathfinding lines would make it hard enough, I think.
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On May 02 2011 23:39 Zocat wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 23:18 warshop wrote:On May 02 2011 23:15 hugman wrote: This only works when there's a clear path between you and the obstacle you're trying to find, and that's not the case on a lot of maps. What I mean is that you need line of sight to your opponent's expo to "proxy scout" it. Nevertheless, I still don't understand why unit pathfinding is done ahead of vision. Pathfinding is very expensive to compute. If you would go via vision (unit vision or overall vision btw?) you would need to constantly check (whenever vision has changed) if there is a better path available. For every unit moving on the field. I currently dont know if it updates at all (i.e. when a supply depot is lowered / raised) or if unit just computes the path once.
Let me rephrase, since it is obviously a bit silly to recalculate pathfinding each time a unit moves within a certain radius.
"Nevertheless, I still don't understand why unit pathfinding sees ahead of vision. It should definitely evaluate the battlefield as empty (or with obstacles if the player has the information of it being there)."
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Russian Federation304 Posts
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don't let combatex find this
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i found the video rather difficult to follow, you dont have the most entertaining voice ever to be honest
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It seems as if a unit moving is iterating between every objects (structures) in the battlefield, where it should, in reality, only iterate between visible objects (i.e. : the mini-map objects).
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Very nitfy findings, I hope to see it in TSL/GSL/NASL etc very soon.
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On May 02 2011 23:50 mprs wrote: don't let combatex find this
ROFL...
To the issue, I think it's extremely hard to fix this. Maybe this will become just another subtle trick mastered by certain players.
Most importantly, you still can't find the opponent's main straight in a 4-player map? AFAIK, you must at least go up the ramp and only then you will see if he's there before seeing the buildings itself.
I don't think this will become a problem.
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Very nice video, if this stays, I can see it definitely being implemented into standard play.
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This is *very* neat. I'm hoping there could be a compromise that rewards this level of detail in play while at the same time... well, you know.
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Sweet find... And I don't see any reason why this should be patched out, it's not game breaking in any manner. People should already have learned that they need to thoroughly scout their base in the early game.
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That scrap station one is really awesome. You can foresee an attack without scouting at all. :O Expect some 'L0L YOU HAX' rages. lol
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This falls under a bug because information used that is not available and that shouldn't be possible.
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Very interesting stuff, especially with the destructible rocks on scrap station. The expo scout is great though, since you can pretty much have a very clear idea if a zerg/toss is starting an expansion. Awesome find, man, but I agree that this needs to be fixed.
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nifty stuff right there :D nice find.
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Oh. My. Gawd. Scouting without scouting.
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This is cool but I don't think that it will be severe enough to warrant a fix by blizzard. Maybe in the lower leagues there will be an increase in cheese, but at least at the highest levels of play it won't matter that much.
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well time to break ladder.. brb
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That's very interesting. Thanks for the find, brother.
EDIT:
For the scrap station rock scouting thing, can we use patrol? Or does it have to be shift move commands?
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I'm not really sure I like this or not. There's so much valueable information that can be gathered for free now. Mindgames such as cancelling an expo, or faking an expo by being very dedicated to deny any scouting would most likely be eliminated if this is executed properly no?
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United Kingdom1381 Posts
Im so doing the destructible rock patrol trick every map now!
Blind cannon rushes are also gonna be a lot more dangerous now on 4 player maps.
One possible solution is to add a 'scouted' boolean to every object and only update the pathing once it gets set to true but this is gonna eat into the fps.
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Wow, i knew that you could use this to see of they had a wall in, but the other stuff is crazy! I hope this is fixed.
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clearly should be fixed, u r getting information you shouldnt get (fog of war). The ramp block is minor thing and it doenst affect gameplay THAT much.
well sackfolding and flowers on lost temple was fixed so expect this to be fixed
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Russian Federation88 Posts
On May 03 2011 00:12 iHirO wrote:Im so doing the destructible rock patrol trick every map now! Blind cannon rushes are also gonna be a lot more dangerous now on 4 player maps. One possible solution is to add a 'scouted' boolean to every object and only update the pathing once it gets set to true but this is gonna eat into the fps.
Nobody (except for dev team ofc) knows how this engine was implemented. Anyway, this is not going to be big change as a unit can avoid another units. So if buildings becomes "units" and not a "part of map" it's probably will be fine.
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On May 02 2011 23:35 Tiazi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 23:15 PaPoolee wrote: Wow needs to be patched ASAP, great find =>. why? Nice find! becasue your opponent is getting way more information then he should?
Im very happy for every bug people find, more work for lazy blizzard ^^
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Whoa, a new trick was found? That impossible, we have the entire game figured out already!
Sorry, had to take a dig at the "the game is doomed to failure because it's too simple and there's nothing left to discover," crowd. Very cool discovery.
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I did notice the wall off scout bug previously... I'd send a drone to middle of a base and I'd check and it was busy skirting along the cliffs and I'm thinking "why did it do tha.... ohhhh" Didn't think about the path finding thing though but now that I see it, i'm surprised no one noticed this sooner.
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On May 03 2011 00:28 Scribble wrote:Whoa, a new trick was found? That impossible, we have the entire game figured out already! Sorry, had to take a dig at the "the game is doomed to failure because it's too simple and there's nothing left to discover," crowd. Very cool discovery. Too bad the only things we discover are mostly non-intended (read they are mistakes).
I would be much more happy if someone would discover how to micro zerg units.
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lol this is pretty epic. untill halfway through i was like... nothing new, maybe for a newbie but the difference in pathing for an unblocked ramp due to a nexus/CC is pretty sick
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wow this is a really big find - it needs to be patched ASAP!
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On May 02 2011 23:39 Zocat wrote: Pathfinding is very expensive to compute. If you would go via vision (unit vision or overall vision btw?) you would need to constantly check (whenever vision has changed) if there is a better path available. For every unit moving on the field. I currently dont know if it updates at all (i.e. when a supply depot is lowered / raised) or if unit just computes the path once.
You go after what's known at the time you issue the move command. It would work just like it's working right now, except that you need an array for each player which would take up more memory.
For example, if someone builds a supply depot out of your vision, your array which contains information about the map would remain unchanged and assume that it is still empty/walkable areas.
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Yea, I hope this gets patched somehow. Getting that sort of information so easily, without even scouting is just retarded.
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wow the scrap station rock trick is really nice
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On May 03 2011 00:30 bgx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 00:28 Scribble wrote:Whoa, a new trick was found? That impossible, we have the entire game figured out already! Sorry, had to take a dig at the "the game is doomed to failure because it's too simple and there's nothing left to discover," crowd. Very cool discovery. Too bad the only things we discover are mostly non-intended (read they are mistakes). I would be much more happy if someone would discover how to micro zerg units.
Muta stacking and moving shot were not intended in Brood War, the difference is that in this game all bugs are patched pretty quickly once they're found, regardless of how they affect the game.
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If I saw someone do that to me I would assume a hacker but know I will at least think twice when I get a quick perfectly placed pylon.
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Canada13372 Posts
Why does this need to be patched? I don't understand. We have finally found a pathing related micro trick. This means there might be other pathing related micro tricks out there yet to discover. This means there really is small amounts of micro that differ from basic unit movement and this game does have little AI issues just like BW did. Maybe theres a hidden moving shot mechanic that we will one day discover !! :D
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Northern Ireland2557 Posts
Wow, pretty significant bug tbh O_O i knew about the wallin thing, that was pretty old and has come up in my games actually, but not being able to detect buildings in the way of an expansion o_o pretty gamebreaking imo
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Wow! Hopefully this will be patched asap. This could be very gamebraking, imagine people finding out where you are before actually even have to scout your base on some maps. Time will tell.
I like the video, very educational. I do not agree with the people that are asking for a more entertaining video as the purpose clearly was to educate and not entertain.
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On May 02 2011 23:18 Talho wrote: Program wise this might be very hard to fix without bugging other pathfinding stuff :/
They actually fixed this in Heroes Of Newearth, so I doubt it.
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I didn't know salad fingers played starcraft 2!
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On May 02 2011 23:16 ru.meta wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 23:15 hugman wrote: This only works when there's a clear path between you and the obstacle you're trying to find, and that's not the case on a lot of maps. What I mean is that you need line of sight to your opponent's expo to "proxy scout" it. Definitely. Any ramp on path nullifies the difference in patches "with" and "without" Nexus.
you're both right, but then again with setting waypoints with shit is is as easy as hell to get those straight lines you need. just dont go there clicking at the minerals from your home base, but do it like in the video with adjustment regarding the terrain and voila: it is no problem at all.
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Wow wasn't expecting to actually see something so useful. Really nice.
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On May 03 2011 01:09 dranko wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 23:18 Talho wrote: Program wise this might be very hard to fix without bugging other pathfinding stuff :/ They actually fixed this in Heroes Of Newearth, so I doubt it.
HON has nowhere near the number of pathfinding calls that SC2 does, and pathfinding failures are more noticeable in SC2 because players cannot devote their time to precisely controlling a single unit for the whole game.
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Quick! Bury this so no-one else finds out but me!
Oh, too late...
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Actually, it's been known for a while and you could see another example during day9's Countdown party part 8 (starting 9:30 but the whole segment is very interesting.)
I'm surprised it hasn't been fixed since, though. It might become very relevant with the upcoming Gateway buff :\
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On May 03 2011 01:09 dranko wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 23:18 Talho wrote: Program wise this might be very hard to fix without bugging other pathfinding stuff :/ They actually fixed this in Heroes Of Newearth, so I doubt it.
HoN is not an input synchronous game as far as I know, this means they don't have this particular problem and if they did it was easy to avoid.
Blizzard could hide subsequent path ways but the bug would still be exploitable, just learn where to click and pay attention to a texture detail on the map for reference, if the harvester deviates, there's an obstacle.
Fixing it properly wouldn't bug the pathfinding, you just need to keep a view of the AI information for every team in the game. However this means that the CPU cycles used for pathfinding and the RAM used for holding the pathing nodes are potentially multiplied by the number of teams in the game (though they could share some of the memory by having "transient" nodes, but nvm that). This could push the hardware requirements of a FFA too far, but that's about it.
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Blizzard can fix this, and probably will as soon as it is well known. It is not a hard problem.
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Epic find yo, Little tricks like that combined with 300 APM = Fun scouting yo.
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Wow, fantastic and very clever!
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These are great tips but I'm afraid that I'd be considered a hacker because I proxyed the correct location without "scouting" lol
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They made pathing a little bit too smart in certain parts, they simply need enemy pathing to not know structures
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Yeah, I knew about the patrol tricks and the blocked off ramp ones, but not the ones to find expansions, that's pretty cool!
For the patrol trick, I've also heard ideas of how it can be used with a group of Zerglings. You patrol zerglings from beneath an opponents base to the top of his base, so they just sit on the wall. Then, when he opens his front door, they will attempt to run into the base to complete their "patrol". I haven't seen it used in a pro game yet, but I did see the thread where someone discovered it a few months ago. This just reminded me about it.
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I change my mind. Either way, I wish this didn't exist.
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holy shittttttttt
cannon rushes just got scarier
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I can't believe people are crying about this on the first page even. "oh noooo we found a trick that good players can use to get an advantage!!!!! get rid of it now!"
Just think of what you are actually saying you stupid people claiming it needs to be removed.
Also you lack a simple understanding of whats going on, this would take some pretty major changes in the pathfinding system which is currently pretty amazing. It's fluid, but still a little clunky in certain situations, as it should be.
I am amazed at how subtle it is, and how much it can improve scouting and the like, as well as mindgames and such. Wonderful find. But to be honest, it's really not "game breaking" in the slightest, it's just really nifty.
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This definitively needs to be fixed, its not one of those tricks that reward good play and just incites people to do "blind" stuff
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No fix needed this is just a tiny 'lil thing everyone can do if they pay attention or mess around with the editor. At least I think so.
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On May 02 2011 23:10 Dny wrote: Hope Blizzard will fix this.
Blizzard should also fix mutalisk stacking, mineral hopping, vulture jumping, burrow hopping, etc etc etc, from BW too, right? You're obviously not supposed to play the game that way, right?
Nevertheless, I still don't understand why unit pathfinding is done ahead of vision.
We could have units try to blindly run in a straight line like retards if you don't have vision of the area yet, if that's how you want it.
It's not so much the "1 second" faster, it's that there are multiple spawn locations and the player never see's a probe wander in his base; thus there never is a missing probe to make him check around his base. It gives cannon rushers a HUGE advantage to get a "blind scout" as they will almost always get the pylon completely done.
It won't be that big for the reason alone being your probe must physically be at their ramp to know for sure if the opponent is there or not. It's a shortcut for sure, but not some deal like, "Ha! I know you're in the 3 o'clock position without even scouting anywhere!"
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fix please, this kind of bugs screw the game.
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On May 03 2011 00:54 ZeromuS wrote: Why does this need to be patched? I don't understand. We have finally found a pathing related micro trick. This means there might be other pathing related micro tricks out there yet to discover. This means there really is small amounts of micro that differ from basic unit movement and this game does have little AI issues just like BW did. Maybe theres a hidden moving shot mechanic that we will one day discover !! :D
because... you can check for expos without actually getting your scout in there just by pathing?
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On May 03 2011 02:40 N3rV[Green] wrote: I can't believe people are crying about this on the first page even. "oh noooo we found a trick that good players can use to get an advantage!!!!! get rid of it now!"
Just think of what you are actually saying you stupid people claiming it needs to be removed.
Also you lack a simple understanding of whats going on, this would take some pretty major changes in the pathfinding system which is currently pretty amazing. It's fluid, but still a little clunky in certain situations, as it should be.
I am amazed at how subtle it is, and how much it can improve scouting and the like, as well as mindgames and such. Wonderful find. But to be honest, it's really not "game breaking" in the slightest, it's just really nifty.
I'm not stupid, I just feel that scouting through FOG OF WAR without actually being there is kinda retarded no?
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On May 03 2011 02:40 N3rV[Green] wrote: I can't believe people are crying about this on the first page even. "oh noooo we found a trick that good players can use to get an advantage!!!!! get rid of it now!"
Just think of what you are actually saying you stupid people claiming it needs to be removed.
Also you lack a simple understanding of whats going on, this would take some pretty major changes in the pathfinding system which is currently pretty amazing. It's fluid, but still a little clunky in certain situations, as it should be.
I am amazed at how subtle it is, and how much it can improve scouting and the like, as well as mindgames and such. Wonderful find. But to be honest, it's really not "game breaking" in the slightest, it's just really nifty.
It's a bug. It should be fixed. Seeing through the fog of war is cheating and that's what this does.
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On May 03 2011 03:29 artanis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 02:40 N3rV[Green] wrote: I can't believe people are crying about this on the first page even. "oh noooo we found a trick that good players can use to get an advantage!!!!! get rid of it now!"
Just think of what you are actually saying you stupid people claiming it needs to be removed.
Also you lack a simple understanding of whats going on, this would take some pretty major changes in the pathfinding system which is currently pretty amazing. It's fluid, but still a little clunky in certain situations, as it should be.
I am amazed at how subtle it is, and how much it can improve scouting and the like, as well as mindgames and such. Wonderful find. But to be honest, it's really not "game breaking" in the slightest, it's just really nifty. It's a bug. It should be fixed. Seeing through the fog of war is cheating and that's what this does.
Except it doesn't. It tells you very, very rudimentary stuff like "there's a building somewhere on this line", and perhaps even tells you how far along the line if you're really smart about it. It does not tell you what the building is, and even if you spent the necessary time to try the 6-10+ waypoint paths you'd have to set up to establish if it was a nexus/hatch/cc it could still be tricked and you'd have wasted minutes of time.
It gives slightly more confirmation of things people already have a pretty good idea of. Given the amount of people who have complained about feeling forced into playing blind, this can only be a good thing.
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On May 03 2011 01:51 artanis2 wrote: Blizzard can fix this, and probably will as soon as it is well known. It is not a hard problem.
It's not an easy fix. Not if you don't want to add a lot more computation and memory requirements on the pathfinding which may or may not be needed.
The tricks he shows I find interesting, but I don't think it justifies what would be required to fix it, unless they come up with an elegant solution, and that I doubt will be a quick fix if they want to avoid other problems.
The sneaky base scout thing I find interesting, but not incredibly useful, since it only really changes things on maps that aren't 2 player maps and if you don't see the initial probe coming in or at all.
Scouting naturals is a bit more useful, however since the probe has to be past mid map on most maps to get the info... You are playing mindgames with nothing telling you that he's expand build might be safe anyways.
ScrapStation thing... is the only legit problem, but it's a map specific thing... If it became a serious issues, I'd rather have one map modified (and it is possible) than throw a wrench in the whole pathfinding. At least not something where I would rush a quick fix.
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everything cool/unintended in sc2 usually ends up being patched. I expect blizzard to at least address the scrap station bug.
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Wow, you sir are a genius for finding this.
I think checking for natural expansion and especially the scrap station thingy might be a bit broken for certain maps.
I think most of this can probably be 'fix' by making small changes to the maps though, since I am not a big fan of increasing the memory require to have the 'perfect' path finding system.
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On May 03 2011 03:59 Furycrab wrote: ScrapStation thing... is the only legit problem, but it's a map specific thing... If it became a serious issues, I'd rather have one map modified (and it is possible) than throw a wrench in the whole pathfinding. At least not something where I would rush a quick fix.
You could do the same thing on Typhon, or on old Shakuras. I don't think it's a problem though, it's equal for all players and you can try to deny LoS to your expansions if you're good.
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On May 03 2011 04:30 Raysalis wrote:Wow, you sir are a genius for finding this. I think checking for natural expansion and especially the scrap station thingy might be a bit broken for certain maps. I think most of this can probably be 'fix' by making small changes to the maps though, since I am not a big fan of increasing the memory require to have the 'perfect' path finding system.
There would be no performance penalty with the fix. The fact that you don't see their building as soon as it is built is fact enough that the vision information is available. The pathing just needs to utilize it.
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On May 03 2011 01:51 artanis2 wrote: It is not a hard problem.
Dynamic pathfinding that has to update itself in real time across hundreds of individual units, all being aware of each other's positions while attempting to find the most optimal way to any given location at any given time is indeed a hard problem. What sounds easy about this task?
Consider the necessary requirements that the pathfinding must be both intelligent and yet also be computationally efficient on a large scale. Now also consider that there can be as many as 8 players in a single game, all controlling up to 200 (not large numbers by computing standards, of course, but exponentially they can be) individual units, all having completely unique map awarenesses that shift on a second by second basis.
Thats a big task to tackle. Simply saying "Make it rely on a player's vision" may not be quite so simple a fix when you get down to the implementation.
In general, we have no way of knowing what their implementation is. Thus we can't assume anything is a "simple fix" and we certainly can't say that pathfinding is an easy task.
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On May 03 2011 04:41 AzurewinD wrote:Dynamic pathfinding that has to update itself in real time across hundreds of individual units, all being aware of each other's positions while attempting to find the most optimal way to any given location at any given time is indeed a hard problem. What about this task sounds easy? Consider the necessary requirements that the pathfinding must be both intelligent and yet also be computationally efficient on a large scale. Now also consider that there can be as many as 8 players in a single game, all controlling up to 200 individual units, all having completely unique map awarenesses that shift on a second by second basis. Thats a big task to tackle. Simply saying "Make it rely on a player's vision" may not be quite so simple a fix when you get down to the implementation. In general, we have no way of knowing what their implementation is. Thus we can't assume anything is a "simple fix" and we certainly can't say that pathfinding is an easy task.
Yes, and all of that problem has already been solved. Adjusting it to ignore certain buildings to within a range is an easy problem. For example:
Instead of generating the grey line, they generate the blue line. They do this by creating a path that ignores all buildings that cannot be seen initially, when the vision changes it is recalculated and tacked on to the current path. This can all be done when the unit is first told to move, or incrementally as the vision is adjusted for a unit's movements.
Just because you guys haven't solved this kind of problem before doesn't mean others haven't...
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On May 03 2011 04:46 artanis2 wrote:Yes, and all of that problem has already been solved. Adjusting it to ignore certain buildings to within a range is an easy problem. For example: Instead of generating the grey line, they generate the blue line. They do this by creating a path that ignores all buildings that cannot be seen initially, when the vision changes it is recalculated and tacked on to the current path. This can all be done when the unit is first told to move, or incrementally as the vision is adjusted for a unit's movements. Just because you guys haven't solved this kind of problem before doesn't mean others haven't...
Well, from the video, it is quite clear that the pathing system is currently not tied to the player vision at all and the players vision is a completely different system.
While it sounds easy, trying to link 2 different system that is not link before is probably more complicated than what we initially perceive to be (from experience).
Not saying you are wrong, since there is a good chance that you are right and it is an easy fix ^^.
Obviously if they can do what you suggested, Blizzard should do it.
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On May 03 2011 05:03 Raysalis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 04:46 artanis2 wrote:Yes, and all of that problem has already been solved. Adjusting it to ignore certain buildings to within a range is an easy problem. For example: Instead of generating the grey line, they generate the blue line. They do this by creating a path that ignores all buildings that cannot be seen initially, when the vision changes it is recalculated and tacked on to the current path. This can all be done when the unit is first told to move, or incrementally as the vision is adjusted for a unit's movements. Just because you guys haven't solved this kind of problem before doesn't mean others haven't... Well, from the video, it is quite clear that the pathing system is currently not tied to the player vision at all and the players vision is a completely different system. While it sounds easy, trying to link 2 different system that is not link before is probably more complicated than what we initially perceive to be (from experience). Not saying you are wrong, since there is a good chance that you are right and it is an easy fix ^^. Obviously if they can do what you suggested, Blizzard should do it.
His solution can even be done in the Map Editor ; and it works with a line of sight pathing.
So if Blizzard actual cares, they give us "exactly" his fix.
But as we know Blizzard, it will take approx 2 months to get a pseudo fix and another 3 months for a reasonable fix.
Just takes too much time ...
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The problem with that "easy fix" is that when you have 200/200 worth of zerglings all having their paths calculated (or a potential 1600/1600 worth of zerglings in a 4v4), you don't want that path to constantly have to be recalculated based on vision. It would cause an insane amount of lag.
I'm not saying it's not possible, but it's not an "easy fix". It's something that would really need to be done carefully, and there'd be a lot of side effects to work out. I'm sure Blizzard was well aware of this problem when they made the pathfinding system.
But I do think it should be fixed. If not in a patch, then in Heart of the Swarm. For those people saying "they shouldn't patch out cool tricks like this", sure there are some awesome tricks that I wish they didn't patch out. I wish void ray fazing still existed. I wish the viking flower and the archon toilet still existed. These were all awesome tricks from a spectator perspective.
But this trick isn't very exciting. You can't even tell someone's doing it from a spectator's perspective unless you specifically watch their scout for it. I just don't think it's a nice enough trick that they should keep it in. It would just cause confusion more than anything else.
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On May 03 2011 05:15 TedJustice wrote: The problem with that "easy fix" is that when you have 200/200 worth of zerglings all having their paths calculated (or a potential 1600/1600 worth of zerglings in a 4v4), you don't want that path to constantly have to be recalculated based on vision. It would cause an insane amount of lag.
The path is only recalculated when a new building is uncovered. How many buildings are typically built during a game? Cheese ends with <10 buildings, a 45 minute game may have 50+ per player. Now how many times do you command a unit in a game? Thousands. Those 50 path recalculations aren't hurting performance...
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I remember one of the glhf.tv guys doing this at the Day9 launch party.
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On May 03 2011 05:15 TedJustice wrote: The problem with that "easy fix" is that when you have 200/200 worth of zerglings all having their paths calculated (or a potential 1600/1600 worth of zerglings in a 4v4), you don't want that path to constantly have to be recalculated based on vision. It would cause an insane amount of lag.
To be fair, the path isn't calculated for every unit individually, the group of selected units is first divided into subgroups and then a path is calculated for every subgroup (and that's the reason we have magic boxing ). When a unit in a subgroup finds an obstacle this is solved with faster algorithms that do not involve global path-finding (line of sight, flocking, avoidance, local path-finding...).
Anyway, what I wanted to say is that the path is already being recalculated occasionally (due to depots being raised or burrowed or buildings being constructed/destroyed) so nothing new would have to be added in this sense. It's just that the frequency of these recalculations would increase cause now you have to take into account things coming inside and outside the fog. So it's slower but not exponentially slower as suggested. Every client would also need a little more RAM to keep every team's AI view.
To me the main difficulty is not technical as it is organizational. The software engineer in charge is not gonna be happy if they ask him to fix this, they are gonna have to do major changes to the simulation classes that will require extensive, maybe month-long, testing in Windows and Mac to avoid desynchronization. Also, they may have to do tricky stuff in order to keep compatibility with old replays and saved games, which will require more testing. For such a stable product it's a pain in the ass when you are asked to introduce a major change that may cause a ton of regressions. So if Blizzard doesn't fix this I'm pretty sure it will be mainly cause of the organizational challenge, SC2 is not very profitable compared to WoW and they may have some trouble justifying something major such as this. There's a reason most of the new features Blizzard are bringing us such as observing overlays are stuff that can be scripted or just added as a resource. i.e: non-engineering stuff that doesn't break anything.
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On May 03 2011 04:46 artanis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 04:41 AzurewinD wrote:On May 03 2011 01:51 artanis2 wrote: It is not a hard problem. Dynamic pathfinding that has to update itself in real time across hundreds of individual units, all being aware of each other's positions while attempting to find the most optimal way to any given location at any given time is indeed a hard problem. What about this task sounds easy? Consider the necessary requirements that the pathfinding must be both intelligent and yet also be computationally efficient on a large scale. Now also consider that there can be as many as 8 players in a single game, all controlling up to 200 individual units, all having completely unique map awarenesses that shift on a second by second basis. Thats a big task to tackle. Simply saying "Make it rely on a player's vision" may not be quite so simple a fix when you get down to the implementation. In general, we have no way of knowing what their implementation is. Thus we can't assume anything is a "simple fix" and we certainly can't say that pathfinding is an easy task. Yes, and all of that problem has already been solved. Adjusting it to ignore certain buildings to within a range is an easy problem. For example: Instead of generating the grey line, they generate the blue line. They do this by creating a path that ignores all buildings that cannot be seen initially, when the vision changes it is recalculated and tacked on to the current path. This can all be done when the unit is first told to move, or incrementally as the vision is adjusted for a unit's movements. Just because you guys haven't solved this kind of problem before doesn't mean others haven't...
Wouldn't this result in stupid pathfinding with regard to previously seen buildings that are in fog of war?
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Woh, thats pretty sweet. Nice find!
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I hope they don't patch this so that we'll see some tournament game where someone blocks their expo path with another building to trick the opponent into thinking he expanded, and then punishes him with a one-base allin.
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this trick only tells you if there is a movement blocker in the path, if this starts getting used you are going to see a rax where the expansion would be. lets say a z uses this trick, he thinks expo and BAM 4 rax at his doorstep. The cannon rush example is the most powerful think i can think of.
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On May 03 2011 06:23 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 04:46 artanis2 wrote:On May 03 2011 04:41 AzurewinD wrote:On May 03 2011 01:51 artanis2 wrote: It is not a hard problem. Dynamic pathfinding that has to update itself in real time across hundreds of individual units, all being aware of each other's positions while attempting to find the most optimal way to any given location at any given time is indeed a hard problem. What about this task sounds easy? Consider the necessary requirements that the pathfinding must be both intelligent and yet also be computationally efficient on a large scale. Now also consider that there can be as many as 8 players in a single game, all controlling up to 200 individual units, all having completely unique map awarenesses that shift on a second by second basis. Thats a big task to tackle. Simply saying "Make it rely on a player's vision" may not be quite so simple a fix when you get down to the implementation. In general, we have no way of knowing what their implementation is. Thus we can't assume anything is a "simple fix" and we certainly can't say that pathfinding is an easy task. Yes, and all of that problem has already been solved. Adjusting it to ignore certain buildings to within a range is an easy problem. For example: Instead of generating the grey line, they generate the blue line. They do this by creating a path that ignores all buildings that cannot be seen initially, when the vision changes it is recalculated and tacked on to the current path. This can all be done when the unit is first told to move, or incrementally as the vision is adjusted for a unit's movements. Just because you guys haven't solved this kind of problem before doesn't mean others haven't... Wouldn't this result in stupid pathfinding with regard to previously seen buildings that are in fog of war?
No. The pathfinding will path around any obstacle that you can see, so you would get the grey path every time in the future.
This includes buildings that you once saw but are no longer actually there, so if that main building had been destroyed or moved, you would path around it, until your unit saw that it was missing and then the path would be recalculated to move through the now empty space.
There are some interesting cases where if there are multiple paths to a location, your unit may end up taking the long way around because you previously saw a wall. That wall might be gone, but your units wont see that fact unless you specifically scout it. With the existing pathing your units magically know that the building is gone and will go up an unblocked ramp that your vision tells you is blocked. This is a bug.
One other quirk with the current pathfinding is when there is no path to a location the unit prefers to get as close as possible even if there is a wall in the way. So for example your scouting worker will sit below a base that is walled off hugging a wall nearest your path destination. I think the correct path should make the unit get as far as possible via the shortest blocked path. This way the unit would move up whichever ramp gets you closest and stop there, instead of by some wall in the middle of nowhere.
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That's pretty cool but only usable on some maps where theres not like a tight corner...but i just tried it and knew this T's expo was up from across the map on metal
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In your video you said that spam clicking actually will cause the selected units to move slower because the path has to be constantly recalculated. How much slower are we talking about? Because I haven't been able to notice the difference.
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Holy shit, amazing find, wonder if this will catch ik and if it will get patched.
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Awesome find. To be honest, I hope they don't change this. I like the implications that it has, and to see it utilized in my opinion would be a beautiful thing.
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Doesn't need to be patched, but great find
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scrap station rock is really nice esp in matchups without zerg (ovie).
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I think there was a thread 4 months ago already detailing a few of these tricks. Especially with finding out if Scrap's rocks are broken.
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Nice find, especially with the expansion checking thing
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On May 03 2011 07:00 asdfjh wrote: In your video you said that spam clicking actually will cause the selected units to move slower because the path has to be constantly recalculated. How much slower are we talking about? Because I haven't been able to notice the difference.
He's right about that and it's a pretty well known fact. You'll notice it if you're trying to worker scout and you have an enemy worker right on your tail or if you are trying to run a worker across the map with zerglings behind it. They get a hit in every time you spam the move command.
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Interesting stuff. I actually knew some of them, like the patrol on Scrap Station. But yeah i wonder what blizzard will do in response to this. Maybe nothing?
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Holy cow :3 you're a genius!!!
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Russian Federation3 Posts
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This is pretty neat - good find!
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That Scrap Station one made me go HOLY SHIT! :O
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Wow i knew about that scrap station one and the walling off but being able to tell if someone has expanded?! I hope they patch this but insane find
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after reading the nexus thing i still dont understand why he has to shift+click the minerals and move back??
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nvm, found the video on youtube. good find, maybe proxy gate will be popluar...
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On May 03 2011 17:10 justiceknight wrote: after reading the nexus thing i still dont understand why he has to shift+click the minerals and move back??
To create a line that won't move according to the position of the worker, so you have something to compare the worker's movement to.
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amazing.. bookmarked on youtube. gonna try this out tomorrow in-game.
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So you can scout the entire map by simply going to the middle and doing the line trick to each of the mains?
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thanks for the video and you have the scariest voice i have ever heard.
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Is it just me or does that voice in the video sound like a science vessel?
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Russian Federation88 Posts
On May 03 2011 17:20 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: So you can scout the entire map by simply going to the middle and doing the line trick to each of the mains?
no, you should have straight line to check: from ramp to minerals. Sometimes this line is pretty long for expansions on some maps (i.e. Xel'naga Fortress).
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knowing whether or not an expansion is up is huge.
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incredible find! i think wether or not bliz patches this out (and there's no doubt they can) is up to the koreans lol, we'll see soon enough weather or not this is a problem.
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Why on earth does people want this to be fixed? A) It's the same for everyone. B) It's a very little issue that woud probably require quite a bit of work to be 'fixed'. I'd rather have them doing something else with their time.
The most useful useage of this imo is checking for expansions. On Xel'Naga Caverns, Delta Quadrant, Metalopolis and Shattered Temple you can get a straigth path to the natural from the center of the map. In addition, on Shattered Temple you can see when the rocks to the third base for your opponent goes down.
On all 4player maps you can now scout their starting location without letting them see your probe. I guess that helps with canon rushing and proxy gate/rax, but maybe that will teach people to scout their base.
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Tbh if u need a straight line without any obsticales for the trick to work, this could be patched out simply by mapmaking.
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Incredible find, but the voice was gross and creepy.
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sooo.. I understand it has to be a straight line to work but.. could someone not choose a spot in the center to always start their units waypoint, make the rallys and memorize the lines when the bases are empty and when they're not, there would always be some kind of deviation from the norm.
With a little memorization could it not be used to insta scout?
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Just checked, no it doesn't work that way.
I'm dumb, please carry on.
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lol this can easily be fixed, if not made much harder by removing the shift-queue line and just put markers there.
Also, it's not that big of a deal for zerg imo, ppls have always been scouting zerg creep and then retreating to plant proxies already. You scout it like any other proxy; their base, or with oves/worker around base.
TLDR: Cool trick, shouldn't be patched out completely, not as big of a deal as people think at first.
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really amazed how people can find exploits so easily
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Cool man, needs to be fixed though. Cannon rushes....... =((
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I just checked out of curiosity whether the rock trick worked with normal units too. And to no surprise it did. So it's a very nice little trick to use in specific situations. Like you can check whether the rocks are down very easily and with little effort at all.
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The easy "fix" to this would be to base pathing only on visible structures. Update pathing when new structures are visible.
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On May 02 2011 23:18 Talho wrote: Program wise this might be very hard to fix without bugging other pathfinding stuff :/
I don't think it would be hard. There is already a "map state" on the client side. The pathfinding just needs to use that, instead of the map itself.
I don't think it will be fixed very soon however, as i don't think that it will effectively change much. You can't scout the opponents position without being very close to it anyways. We will definatly not see it used in any pro games.
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Russian Federation88 Posts
On May 03 2011 17:48 yellowmoe wrote: Is it just me or does that voice in the video sound like a science vessel?
There are different opinions who I am in real. I even thought to start a poll ^_^ Anyway: I've added subtitles for nice ears.
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great find, scary voice as hell!
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mhmm, well put together. I wonder how long the Koreans have been secretly using this exploit!! BAN HAMMAAHHHHHH
I demand a recount of GSL S1.
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You don't need a perfectly straight line. You just need there to be no situation where your probe will hug a corner. The change is subtle depending on the angle you use, but if you practice it map specific it's definitely easy to tell spawn location.
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Wow, my mind is blown away
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I don't see how this is OP, as someone said before you already can tell whether a base is there vs a Z just by creep. People also keep complaining there aren't small micro tricks in SC2... well there won't be if people clamor for them to be removed every time one gets discovered.
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wow those are really interesting little things but they could be quite useful
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To the people saying it MUST be removed/fixed since cannon rushes and other such shit....Do you ever scout your own base?
Cause if you did regularly, it wouldn't matter if you didn't see his little probey, you still find it by knowing the timing that the pylon goes down, ezpz.
Grow up babies.
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That scrap station rock one....huge.
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Scrap station seems the most useful.
Voice was a little creepy though but good stuff
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holy crap this is awesome. i def want to see this at high level play
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this is really great :D
thx for sharing you sxc
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Assuming it's not a bug exploit, which I hope it's not, scouting that last base on a 4 player map just got quicker. Could be the difference between getting in before that stalker / marine / wall-off happens, no ?
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