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ru.meta
Russian Federation88 Posts
- sneaky check opponents location and expansion - in some circumstance know about destructible rocks fall ![[image loading]](http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/7194/1304103589youtubecr.png) updates - you can use any unit (not only worker) to do any of this - "closed areas" include walled-in Terran's base, so you can know when supply depot is down - difference in worst case (when I find opponent on 3th possible location) on Delta Quadrant is about 15 seconds compared to "normal" way to scout. | ||
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ch4ppi
Germany802 Posts
This is a great find, especially with the exe. | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
Your trick of using waypoints to see if the worker paths slightly "off track" however is new to me, nice find! | ||
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Binabik
Germany686 Posts
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Quasimoto3000
United States471 Posts
Iv been waiting for someone to put up a good video like this. Im sure pros could gain some cool advantages with this. | ||
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Despicatus
34 Posts
I don't think that this is meant to be, nor that it should be in the game. Uhm wait 1 sec, so how much faster can you actually scout your opponent on a 4 player map like tal darim with this? | ||
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Jinsho
United Kingdom3101 Posts
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monitor
United States2404 Posts
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gondolin
France332 Posts
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Mikilatov
United States3897 Posts
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Dny
Netherlands23 Posts
Hope Blizzard will fix this. | ||
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ru.meta
Russian Federation88 Posts
On May 02 2011 23:05 Despicatus wrote: Well, this is pretty evil for cannon rushes and just scouting in General, I really hope Blizzard updates the path finding engine to fix this. I don't think that this is meant to be, nor that it should be in the game. Uhm wait 1 sec, so how much faster can you actually scout your opponent on a 4 player map like tal darim with this? I'm not sure. Probably difference is not large. But sometimes 3 seconds is a difference between "I'm in" and "marine is out". | ||
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
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PaPoolee
United Arab Emirates660 Posts
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Sleight
2471 Posts
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Binabik
Germany686 Posts
Terran and Protoss will be as easily spotted as Zerg. | ||
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Keype
Sweden455 Posts
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ru.meta
Russian Federation88 Posts
On May 02 2011 23:15 hugman wrote: This only works when there's a clear path between you and the obstacle you're trying to find, and that's not the case on a lot of maps. What I mean is that you need line of sight to your opponent's expo to "proxy scout" it. Definitely. Any ramp on path nullifies the difference in patches "with" and "without" Nexus. | ||
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WindOw
Sweden407 Posts
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Talho
Belgium592 Posts
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warshop
Canada490 Posts
On May 02 2011 23:15 hugman wrote: This only works when there's a clear path between you and the obstacle you're trying to find, and that's not the case on a lot of maps. What I mean is that you need line of sight to your opponent's expo to "proxy scout" it. Nevertheless, I still don't understand why unit pathfinding is done ahead of vision. | ||
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GiygaS
Canada1043 Posts
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Ipp
United States456 Posts
On May 02 2011 23:05 Despicatus wrote: Well, this is pretty evil for cannon rushes and just scouting in General, I really hope Blizzard updates the path finding engine to fix this. I don't think that this is meant to be, nor that it should be in the game. Uhm wait 1 sec, so how much faster can you actually scout your opponent on a 4 player map like tal darim with this? It's not so much the "1 second" faster, it's that there are multiple spawn locations and the player never see's a probe wander in his base; thus there never is a missing probe to make him check around his base. It gives cannon rushers a HUGE advantage to get a "blind scout" as they will almost always get the pylon completely done. | ||
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fiskrens
Sweden196 Posts
On May 02 2011 23:18 Talho wrote: Program wise this might be very hard to fix without bugging other pathfinding stuff :/ I don't think it should be that difficult to base pathfinding on what's been scouted and always treat unscouted areas as empty. | ||
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lac29
United States1485 Posts
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ru.meta
Russian Federation88 Posts
On May 02 2011 23:24 fiskrens wrote: I don't think it should be that difficult to base pathfinding on what's been scouted and always treat unscouted areas as empty. It's definitely not so simple but it's probable will not require big powers to recalculate path as new building appears / disappears within unit vision. | ||
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Tiazi
Netherlands761 Posts
On May 02 2011 23:15 PaPoolee wrote: Wow needs to be patched ASAP, great find =>. why? Nice find! | ||
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Zocat
Germany2229 Posts
On May 02 2011 23:18 warshop wrote: Nevertheless, I still don't understand why unit pathfinding is done ahead of vision. Pathfinding is very expensive to compute. If you would go via vision (unit vision or overall vision btw?) you would need to constantly check (whenever vision has changed) if there is a better path available. For every unit moving on the field. I currently dont know if it updates at all (i.e. when a supply depot is lowered / raised) or if unit just computes the path once. On May 02 2011 23:24 Ipp wrote: It's not so much the "1 second" faster, it's that there are multiple spawn locations and the player never see's a probe wander in his base; thus there never is a missing probe to make him check around his base. It gives cannon rushers a HUGE advantage to get a "blind scout" as they will almost always get the pylon completely done. Depending on the spawn location (i.e. Metalopolis 3) your scouting probe could look at the minerals and see if they're being mined without the mining player seeing the probe. So I dont really see that much of a change. | ||
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DannyJ
United States5110 Posts
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Dagobert
Netherlands1858 Posts
On May 02 2011 23:18 Talho wrote: Program wise this might be very hard to fix without bugging other pathfinding stuff :/ Removing the pathfinding lines would make it hard enough, I think. | ||
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warshop
Canada490 Posts
On May 02 2011 23:39 Zocat wrote: Pathfinding is very expensive to compute. If you would go via vision (unit vision or overall vision btw?) you would need to constantly check (whenever vision has changed) if there is a better path available. For every unit moving on the field. I currently dont know if it updates at all (i.e. when a supply depot is lowered / raised) or if unit just computes the path once. Let me rephrase, since it is obviously a bit silly to recalculate pathfinding each time a unit moves within a certain radius. "Nevertheless, I still don't understand why unit pathfinding sees ahead of vision. It should definitely evaluate the battlefield as empty (or with obstacles if the player has the information of it being there)." | ||
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insolentrus
Russian Federation304 Posts
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mprs
Canada2933 Posts
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Dezire
Netherlands640 Posts
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warshop
Canada490 Posts
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startover
United States35 Posts
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superjoppe
Sweden3683 Posts
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DNB
Finland995 Posts
On May 02 2011 23:50 mprs wrote: don't let combatex find this ROFL... To the issue, I think it's extremely hard to fix this. Maybe this will become just another subtle trick mastered by certain players. Most importantly, you still can't find the opponent's main straight in a 4-player map? AFAIK, you must at least go up the ramp and only then you will see if he's there before seeing the buildings itself. I don't think this will become a problem. | ||
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BuddhaMonk
781 Posts
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404.Delirium
United States1190 Posts
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rO_Or
United States306 Posts
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Hoon
Brazil891 Posts
You can foresee an attack without scouting at all. :O Expect some 'L0L YOU HAX' rages. lol | ||
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Vipsanius
Netherlands708 Posts
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Inex
Bulgaria443 Posts
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biomech
Germany380 Posts
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
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I)etox
1240 Posts
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Herper
501 Posts
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Twistacles
Canada1327 Posts
EDIT: For the scrap station rock scouting thing, can we use patrol? Or does it have to be shift move commands? | ||
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merz
Sweden2760 Posts
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iHirO
United Kingdom1381 Posts
 Blind cannon rushes are also gonna be a lot more dangerous now on 4 player maps. One possible solution is to add a 'scouted' boolean to every object and only update the pathing once it gets set to true but this is gonna eat into the fps. | ||
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bobbingmatt
Australia224 Posts
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banana
Netherlands1189 Posts
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bgx
Poland6595 Posts
well sackfolding and flowers on lost temple was fixed so expect this to be fixed | ||
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ru.meta
Russian Federation88 Posts
On May 03 2011 00:12 iHirO wrote: Im so doing the destructible rock patrol trick every map now! Blind cannon rushes are also gonna be a lot more dangerous now on 4 player maps. One possible solution is to add a 'scouted' boolean to every object and only update the pathing once it gets set to true but this is gonna eat into the fps.  Nobody (except for dev team ofc) knows how this engine was implemented. Anyway, this is not going to be big change as a unit can avoid another units. So if buildings becomes "units" and not a "part of map" it's probably will be fine. | ||
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bgx
Poland6595 Posts
becasue your opponent is getting way more information then he should? Im very happy for every bug people find, more work for lazy blizzard ^^ | ||
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Scribble
2077 Posts
Sorry, had to take a dig at the "the game is doomed to failure because it's too simple and there's nothing left to discover," crowd. Very cool discovery. | ||
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Gingerninja
United Kingdom1339 Posts
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bgx
Poland6595 Posts
On May 03 2011 00:28 Scribble wrote: Whoa, a new trick was found? That impossible, we have the entire game figured out already! Sorry, had to take a dig at the "the game is doomed to failure because it's too simple and there's nothing left to discover," crowd. Very cool discovery. Too bad the only things we discover are mostly non-intended (read they are mistakes). I would be much more happy if someone would discover how to micro zerg units. | ||
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mapleleafs791
United States225 Posts
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lolsixtynine
United States600 Posts
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fiskrens
Sweden196 Posts
On May 02 2011 23:39 Zocat wrote: Pathfinding is very expensive to compute. If you would go via vision (unit vision or overall vision btw?) you would need to constantly check (whenever vision has changed) if there is a better path available. For every unit moving on the field. I currently dont know if it updates at all (i.e. when a supply depot is lowered / raised) or if unit just computes the path once. You go after what's known at the time you issue the move command. It would work just like it's working right now, except that you need an array for each player which would take up more memory. For example, if someone builds a supply depot out of your vision, your array which contains information about the map would remain unchanged and assume that it is still empty/walkable areas. | ||
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Baby_Seal
United States360 Posts
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Khanz
France214 Posts
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adius
United States249 Posts
On May 03 2011 00:30 bgx wrote: Too bad the only things we discover are mostly non-intended (read they are mistakes). I would be much more happy if someone would discover how to micro zerg units. Muta stacking and moving shot were not intended in Brood War, the difference is that in this game all bugs are patched pretty quickly once they're found, regardless of how they affect the game. | ||
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drjoe
United States66 Posts
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ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
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Maliris
Northern Ireland2557 Posts
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Arcanne
United States1519 Posts
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zewk
Sweden35 Posts
I like the video, very educational. I do not agree with the people that are asking for a more entertaining video as the purpose clearly was to educate and not entertain. | ||
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dranko
Sweden378 Posts
On May 02 2011 23:18 Talho wrote: Program wise this might be very hard to fix without bugging other pathfinding stuff :/ They actually fixed this in Heroes Of Newearth, so I doubt it. | ||
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nVusZah
United States64 Posts
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Semtext
Germany287 Posts
On May 02 2011 23:16 ru.meta wrote: Definitely. Any ramp on path nullifies the difference in patches "with" and "without" Nexus. you're both right, but then again with setting waypoints with shit is is as easy as hell to get those straight lines you need. just dont go there clicking at the minerals from your home base, but do it like in the video with adjustment regarding the terrain and voila: it is no problem at all. | ||
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Altar
United States577 Posts
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kzn
United States1218 Posts
On May 03 2011 01:09 dranko wrote: They actually fixed this in Heroes Of Newearth, so I doubt it. HON has nowhere near the number of pathfinding calls that SC2 does, and pathfinding failures are more noticeable in SC2 because players cannot devote their time to precisely controlling a single unit for the whole game. | ||
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Mobius_1
United Kingdom2763 Posts
Oh, too late... | ||
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Lotar
132 Posts
I'm surprised it hasn't been fixed since, though. It might become very relevant with the upcoming Gateway buff :\ | ||
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Seldon
90 Posts
On May 03 2011 01:09 dranko wrote: They actually fixed this in Heroes Of Newearth, so I doubt it. HoN is not an input synchronous game as far as I know, this means they don't have this particular problem and if they did it was easy to avoid. Blizzard could hide subsequent path ways but the bug would still be exploitable, just learn where to click and pay attention to a texture detail on the map for reference, if the harvester deviates, there's an obstacle. Fixing it properly wouldn't bug the pathfinding, you just need to keep a view of the AI information for every team in the game. However this means that the CPU cycles used for pathfinding and the RAM used for holding the pathing nodes are potentially multiplied by the number of teams in the game (though they could share some of the memory by having "transient" nodes, but nvm that). This could push the hardware requirements of a FFA too far, but that's about it. | ||
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artanis2
United States732 Posts
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Ponyo
United States1231 Posts
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JiYan
United States3668 Posts
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ExileStrife
United States170 Posts
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Kinetik_Inferno
United States1431 Posts
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wankey
98 Posts
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
For the patrol trick, I've also heard ideas of how it can be used with a group of Zerglings. You patrol zerglings from beneath an opponents base to the top of his base, so they just sit on the wall. Then, when he opens his front door, they will attempt to run into the base to complete their "patrol". I haven't seen it used in a pro game yet, but I did see the thread where someone discovered it a few months ago. This just reminded me about it. | ||
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Wolf
Korea (South)3290 Posts
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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Corvette
United States433 Posts
cannon rushes just got scarier | ||
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N3rV[Green]
United States1935 Posts
Just think of what you are actually saying you stupid people claiming it needs to be removed. Also you lack a simple understanding of whats going on, this would take some pretty major changes in the pathfinding system which is currently pretty amazing. It's fluid, but still a little clunky in certain situations, as it should be. I am amazed at how subtle it is, and how much it can improve scouting and the like, as well as mindgames and such. Wonderful find. But to be honest, it's really not "game breaking" in the slightest, it's just really nifty. | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
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R3N
740 Posts
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KevinIX
United States2472 Posts
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Lunchador
United States776 Posts
On May 02 2011 23:10 Dny wrote: Hope Blizzard will fix this. Blizzard should also fix mutalisk stacking, mineral hopping, vulture jumping, burrow hopping, etc etc etc, from BW too, right? You're obviously not supposed to play the game that way, right? Nevertheless, I still don't understand why unit pathfinding is done ahead of vision. We could have units try to blindly run in a straight line like retards if you don't have vision of the area yet, if that's how you want it. It's not so much the "1 second" faster, it's that there are multiple spawn locations and the player never see's a probe wander in his base; thus there never is a missing probe to make him check around his base. It gives cannon rushers a HUGE advantage to get a "blind scout" as they will almost always get the pylon completely done. It won't be that big for the reason alone being your probe must physically be at their ramp to know for sure if the opponent is there or not. It's a shortcut for sure, but not some deal like, "Ha! I know you're in the 3 o'clock position without even scouting anywhere!" | ||
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MurdeR
Argentina89 Posts
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Flowjo
United States928 Posts
On May 03 2011 00:54 ZeromuS wrote: Why does this need to be patched? I don't understand. We have finally found a pathing related micro trick. This means there might be other pathing related micro tricks out there yet to discover. This means there really is small amounts of micro that differ from basic unit movement and this game does have little AI issues just like BW did. Maybe theres a hidden moving shot mechanic that we will one day discover !! :D because... you can check for expos without actually getting your scout in there just by pathing? | ||
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Flowjo
United States928 Posts
On May 03 2011 02:40 N3rV[Green] wrote: I can't believe people are crying about this on the first page even. "oh noooo we found a trick that good players can use to get an advantage!!!!! get rid of it now!" Just think of what you are actually saying you stupid people claiming it needs to be removed. Also you lack a simple understanding of whats going on, this would take some pretty major changes in the pathfinding system which is currently pretty amazing. It's fluid, but still a little clunky in certain situations, as it should be. I am amazed at how subtle it is, and how much it can improve scouting and the like, as well as mindgames and such. Wonderful find. But to be honest, it's really not "game breaking" in the slightest, it's just really nifty. I'm not stupid, I just feel that scouting through FOG OF WAR without actually being there is kinda retarded no? | ||
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artanis2
United States732 Posts
On May 03 2011 02:40 N3rV[Green] wrote: I can't believe people are crying about this on the first page even. "oh noooo we found a trick that good players can use to get an advantage!!!!! get rid of it now!" Just think of what you are actually saying you stupid people claiming it needs to be removed. Also you lack a simple understanding of whats going on, this would take some pretty major changes in the pathfinding system which is currently pretty amazing. It's fluid, but still a little clunky in certain situations, as it should be. I am amazed at how subtle it is, and how much it can improve scouting and the like, as well as mindgames and such. Wonderful find. But to be honest, it's really not "game breaking" in the slightest, it's just really nifty. It's a bug. It should be fixed. Seeing through the fog of war is cheating and that's what this does. | ||
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Mulu731
United States99 Posts
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kzn
United States1218 Posts
On May 03 2011 03:29 artanis2 wrote: It's a bug. It should be fixed. Seeing through the fog of war is cheating and that's what this does. Except it doesn't. It tells you very, very rudimentary stuff like "there's a building somewhere on this line", and perhaps even tells you how far along the line if you're really smart about it. It does not tell you what the building is, and even if you spent the necessary time to try the 6-10+ waypoint paths you'd have to set up to establish if it was a nexus/hatch/cc it could still be tricked and you'd have wasted minutes of time. It gives slightly more confirmation of things people already have a pretty good idea of. Given the amount of people who have complained about feeling forced into playing blind, this can only be a good thing. | ||
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Furycrab
Canada456 Posts
On May 03 2011 01:51 artanis2 wrote: Blizzard can fix this, and probably will as soon as it is well known. It is not a hard problem. It's not an easy fix. Not if you don't want to add a lot more computation and memory requirements on the pathfinding which may or may not be needed. The tricks he shows I find interesting, but I don't think it justifies what would be required to fix it, unless they come up with an elegant solution, and that I doubt will be a quick fix if they want to avoid other problems. The sneaky base scout thing I find interesting, but not incredibly useful, since it only really changes things on maps that aren't 2 player maps and if you don't see the initial probe coming in or at all. Scouting naturals is a bit more useful, however since the probe has to be past mid map on most maps to get the info... You are playing mindgames with nothing telling you that he's expand build might be safe anyways. ScrapStation thing... is the only legit problem, but it's a map specific thing... If it became a serious issues, I'd rather have one map modified (and it is possible) than throw a wrench in the whole pathfinding. At least not something where I would rush a quick fix. | ||
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DuneBug
United States668 Posts
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Raysalis
Malaysia1034 Posts
I think checking for natural expansion and especially the scrap station thingy might be a bit broken for certain maps. I think most of this can probably be 'fix' by making small changes to the maps though, since I am not a big fan of increasing the memory require to have the 'perfect' path finding system. | ||
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
On May 03 2011 03:59 Furycrab wrote: ScrapStation thing... is the only legit problem, but it's a map specific thing... If it became a serious issues, I'd rather have one map modified (and it is possible) than throw a wrench in the whole pathfinding. At least not something where I would rush a quick fix. You could do the same thing on Typhon, or on old Shakuras. I don't think it's a problem though, it's equal for all players and you can try to deny LoS to your expansions if you're good. | ||
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artanis2
United States732 Posts
On May 03 2011 04:30 Raysalis wrote: Wow, you sir are a genius for finding this. I think checking for natural expansion and especially the scrap station thingy might be a bit broken for certain maps. I think most of this can probably be 'fix' by making small changes to the maps though, since I am not a big fan of increasing the memory require to have the 'perfect' path finding system. There would be no performance penalty with the fix. The fact that you don't see their building as soon as it is built is fact enough that the vision information is available. The pathing just needs to utilize it. | ||
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AzurewinD
United States569 Posts
On May 03 2011 01:51 artanis2 wrote: It is not a hard problem. Dynamic pathfinding that has to update itself in real time across hundreds of individual units, all being aware of each other's positions while attempting to find the most optimal way to any given location at any given time is indeed a hard problem. What sounds easy about this task? Consider the necessary requirements that the pathfinding must be both intelligent and yet also be computationally efficient on a large scale. Now also consider that there can be as many as 8 players in a single game, all controlling up to 200 (not large numbers by computing standards, of course, but exponentially they can be) individual units, all having completely unique map awarenesses that shift on a second by second basis. Thats a big task to tackle. Simply saying "Make it rely on a player's vision" may not be quite so simple a fix when you get down to the implementation. In general, we have no way of knowing what their implementation is. Thus we can't assume anything is a "simple fix" and we certainly can't say that pathfinding is an easy task. | ||
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artanis2
United States732 Posts
On May 03 2011 04:41 AzurewinD wrote: Dynamic pathfinding that has to update itself in real time across hundreds of individual units, all being aware of each other's positions while attempting to find the most optimal way to any given location at any given time is indeed a hard problem. What about this task sounds easy? Consider the necessary requirements that the pathfinding must be both intelligent and yet also be computationally efficient on a large scale. Now also consider that there can be as many as 8 players in a single game, all controlling up to 200 individual units, all having completely unique map awarenesses that shift on a second by second basis. Thats a big task to tackle. Simply saying "Make it rely on a player's vision" may not be quite so simple a fix when you get down to the implementation. In general, we have no way of knowing what their implementation is. Thus we can't assume anything is a "simple fix" and we certainly can't say that pathfinding is an easy task. Yes, and all of that problem has already been solved. Adjusting it to ignore certain buildings to within a range is an easy problem. For example: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Z3Cvv.png) Instead of generating the grey line, they generate the blue line. They do this by creating a path that ignores all buildings that cannot be seen initially, when the vision changes it is recalculated and tacked on to the current path. This can all be done when the unit is first told to move, or incrementally as the vision is adjusted for a unit's movements. Just because you guys haven't solved this kind of problem before doesn't mean others haven't... | ||
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Raysalis
Malaysia1034 Posts
On May 03 2011 04:46 artanis2 wrote: Yes, and all of that problem has already been solved. Adjusting it to ignore certain buildings to within a range is an easy problem. For example: Instead of generating the grey line, they generate the blue line. They do this by creating a path that ignores all buildings that cannot be seen initially, when the vision changes it is recalculated and tacked on to the current path. This can all be done when the unit is first told to move, or incrementally as the vision is adjusted for a unit's movements. Just because you guys haven't solved this kind of problem before doesn't mean others haven't... Well, from the video, it is quite clear that the pathing system is currently not tied to the player vision at all and the players vision is a completely different system. While it sounds easy, trying to link 2 different system that is not link before is probably more complicated than what we initially perceive to be (from experience). Not saying you are wrong, since there is a good chance that you are right and it is an easy fix ^^. Obviously if they can do what you suggested, Blizzard should do it. | ||
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ManaO
Italy185 Posts
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TheOnlyOne
Germany155 Posts
On May 03 2011 05:03 Raysalis wrote: Well, from the video, it is quite clear that the pathing system is currently not tied to the player vision at all and the players vision is a completely different system. While it sounds easy, trying to link 2 different system that is not link before is probably more complicated than what we initially perceive to be (from experience). Not saying you are wrong, since there is a good chance that you are right and it is an easy fix ^^. Obviously if they can do what you suggested, Blizzard should do it. His solution can even be done in the Map Editor ; and it works with a line of sight pathing. So if Blizzard actual cares, they give us "exactly" his fix. But as we know Blizzard, it will take approx 2 months to get a pseudo fix and another 3 months for a reasonable fix. Just takes too much time ... | ||
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TedJustice
Canada1324 Posts
I'm not saying it's not possible, but it's not an "easy fix". It's something that would really need to be done carefully, and there'd be a lot of side effects to work out. I'm sure Blizzard was well aware of this problem when they made the pathfinding system. But I do think it should be fixed. If not in a patch, then in Heart of the Swarm. For those people saying "they shouldn't patch out cool tricks like this", sure there are some awesome tricks that I wish they didn't patch out. I wish void ray fazing still existed. I wish the viking flower and the archon toilet still existed. These were all awesome tricks from a spectator perspective. But this trick isn't very exciting. You can't even tell someone's doing it from a spectator's perspective unless you specifically watch their scout for it. I just don't think it's a nice enough trick that they should keep it in. It would just cause confusion more than anything else. | ||
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artanis2
United States732 Posts
On May 03 2011 05:15 TedJustice wrote: The problem with that "easy fix" is that when you have 200/200 worth of zerglings all having their paths calculated (or a potential 1600/1600 worth of zerglings in a 4v4), you don't want that path to constantly have to be recalculated based on vision. It would cause an insane amount of lag. The path is only recalculated when a new building is uncovered. How many buildings are typically built during a game? Cheese ends with <10 buildings, a 45 minute game may have 50+ per player. Now how many times do you command a unit in a game? Thousands. Those 50 path recalculations aren't hurting performance... | ||
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sjschmidt93
United States2518 Posts
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Seldon
90 Posts
On May 03 2011 05:15 TedJustice wrote: The problem with that "easy fix" is that when you have 200/200 worth of zerglings all having their paths calculated (or a potential 1600/1600 worth of zerglings in a 4v4), you don't want that path to constantly have to be recalculated based on vision. It would cause an insane amount of lag. To be fair, the path isn't calculated for every unit individually, the group of selected units is first divided into subgroups and then a path is calculated for every subgroup (and that's the reason we have magic boxing ). When a unit in a subgroup finds an obstacle this is solved with faster algorithms that do not involve global path-finding (line of sight, flocking, avoidance, local path-finding...).Anyway, what I wanted to say is that the path is already being recalculated occasionally (due to depots being raised or burrowed or buildings being constructed/destroyed) so nothing new would have to be added in this sense. It's just that the frequency of these recalculations would increase cause now you have to take into account things coming inside and outside the fog. So it's slower but not exponentially slower as suggested. Every client would also need a little more RAM to keep every team's AI view. To me the main difficulty is not technical as it is organizational. The software engineer in charge is not gonna be happy if they ask him to fix this, they are gonna have to do major changes to the simulation classes that will require extensive, maybe month-long, testing in Windows and Mac to avoid desynchronization. Also, they may have to do tricky stuff in order to keep compatibility with old replays and saved games, which will require more testing. For such a stable product it's a pain in the ass when you are asked to introduce a major change that may cause a ton of regressions. So if Blizzard doesn't fix this I'm pretty sure it will be mainly cause of the organizational challenge, SC2 is not very profitable compared to WoW and they may have some trouble justifying something major such as this. There's a reason most of the new features Blizzard are bringing us such as observing overlays are stuff that can be scripted or just added as a resource. i.e: non-engineering stuff that doesn't break anything. | ||
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kzn
United States1218 Posts
On May 03 2011 04:46 artanis2 wrote: Yes, and all of that problem has already been solved. Adjusting it to ignore certain buildings to within a range is an easy problem. For example: Instead of generating the grey line, they generate the blue line. They do this by creating a path that ignores all buildings that cannot be seen initially, when the vision changes it is recalculated and tacked on to the current path. This can all be done when the unit is first told to move, or incrementally as the vision is adjusted for a unit's movements. Just because you guys haven't solved this kind of problem before doesn't mean others haven't... Wouldn't this result in stupid pathfinding with regard to previously seen buildings that are in fog of war? | ||
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Swwww
Switzerland812 Posts
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corpuscle
United States1967 Posts
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Silent331
United States356 Posts
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artanis2
United States732 Posts
On May 03 2011 06:23 kzn wrote: Wouldn't this result in stupid pathfinding with regard to previously seen buildings that are in fog of war? No. The pathfinding will path around any obstacle that you can see, so you would get the grey path every time in the future. This includes buildings that you once saw but are no longer actually there, so if that main building had been destroyed or moved, you would path around it, until your unit saw that it was missing and then the path would be recalculated to move through the now empty space. There are some interesting cases where if there are multiple paths to a location, your unit may end up taking the long way around because you previously saw a wall. That wall might be gone, but your units wont see that fact unless you specifically scout it. With the existing pathing your units magically know that the building is gone and will go up an unblocked ramp that your vision tells you is blocked. This is a bug. One other quirk with the current pathfinding is when there is no path to a location the unit prefers to get as close as possible even if there is a wall in the way. So for example your scouting worker will sit below a base that is walled off hugging a wall nearest your path destination. I think the correct path should make the unit get as far as possible via the shortest blocked path. This way the unit would move up whichever ramp gets you closest and stop there, instead of by some wall in the middle of nowhere. | ||
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Steel
Japan2283 Posts
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asdfjh
Canada230 Posts
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Mithriel
Netherlands2969 Posts
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zeru
8156 Posts
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Dalguno
United States2446 Posts
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
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nitdkim
1264 Posts
 esp in matchups without zerg (ovie). | ||
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ScythedBlade
308 Posts
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Moonling
United States987 Posts
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Penke
Sweden346 Posts
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GagnarTheUnruly
United States655 Posts
On May 03 2011 07:00 asdfjh wrote: In your video you said that spam clicking actually will cause the selected units to move slower because the path has to be constantly recalculated. How much slower are we talking about? Because I haven't been able to notice the difference. He's right about that and it's a pretty well known fact. You'll notice it if you're trying to worker scout and you have an enemy worker right on your tail or if you are trying to run a worker across the map with zerglings behind it. They get a hit in every time you spam the move command. | ||
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vectorix108
United States4633 Posts
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BaronFel
United States155 Posts
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mavsfan0041
United States306 Posts
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alert
Russian Federation3 Posts
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Eeeegor
Australia809 Posts
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Maximumraver
Netherlands124 Posts
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Philip2110
Scotland798 Posts
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justiceknight
Singapore5741 Posts
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nkwd
United States99 Posts
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Trang
Australia324 Posts
On May 03 2011 17:10 justiceknight wrote: after reading the nexus thing i still dont understand why he has to shift+click the minerals and move back?? To create a line that won't move according to the position of the worker, so you have something to compare the worker's movement to. | ||
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Perplex
United States1693 Posts
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Torpedo.Vegas
United States1890 Posts
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Redunzl
862 Posts
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yellowmoe
Canada59 Posts
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ru.meta
Russian Federation88 Posts
On May 03 2011 17:20 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: So you can scout the entire map by simply going to the middle and doing the line trick to each of the mains? no, you should have straight line to check: from ramp to minerals. Sometimes this line is pretty long for expansions on some maps (i.e. Xel'naga Fortress). | ||
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GhostFall
United States830 Posts
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FoFo
Netherlands207 Posts
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Vorenius
Denmark1979 Posts
A) It's the same for everyone. B) It's a very little issue that woud probably require quite a bit of work to be 'fixed'. I'd rather have them doing something else with their time. The most useful useage of this imo is checking for expansions. On Xel'Naga Caverns, Delta Quadrant, Metalopolis and Shattered Temple you can get a straigth path to the natural from the center of the map. In addition, on Shattered Temple you can see when the rocks to the third base for your opponent goes down. On all 4player maps you can now scout their starting location without letting them see your probe. I guess that helps with canon rushing and proxy gate/rax, but maybe that will teach people to scout their base. | ||
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Bswhunter
Australia954 Posts
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niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
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Gridline
United States41 Posts
With a little memorization could it not be used to insta scout? | ||
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Gridline
United States41 Posts
I'm dumb, please carry on. | ||
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me_viet
Australia1350 Posts
Also, it's not that big of a deal for zerg imo, ppls have always been scouting zerg creep and then retreating to plant proxies already. You scout it like any other proxy; their base, or with oves/worker around base. TLDR: Cool trick, shouldn't be patched out completely, not as big of a deal as people think at first. | ||
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Qntc.YuMe
United States792 Posts
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zende
Sweden234 Posts
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Phinix
United States116 Posts
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Uhnno
Netherlands288 Posts
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ABXG
Canada16 Posts
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On May 02 2011 23:18 Talho wrote: Program wise this might be very hard to fix without bugging other pathfinding stuff :/ I don't think it would be hard. There is already a "map state" on the client side. The pathfinding just needs to use that, instead of the map itself. I don't think it will be fixed very soon however, as i don't think that it will effectively change much. You can't scout the opponents position without being very close to it anyways. We will definatly not see it used in any pro games. | ||
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ru.meta
Russian Federation88 Posts
On May 03 2011 17:48 yellowmoe wrote: Is it just me or does that voice in the video sound like a science vessel? There are different opinions who I am in real. I even thought to start a poll ^_^ Anyway: I've added subtitles for nice ears. | ||
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GxZ
United States375 Posts
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papaz
Sweden4149 Posts
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Healedyou
United States47 Posts
BAN HAMMAAHHHHHH I demand a recount of GSL S1. | ||
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JustPlay
United States211 Posts
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Azzur
Australia6259 Posts
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Faveokatro
80 Posts
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rickybobby
United States405 Posts
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N3rV[Green]
United States1935 Posts
Cause if you did regularly, it wouldn't matter if you didn't see his little probey, you still find it by knowing the timing that the pylon goes down, ezpz. Grow up babies. | ||
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FinestHour
United States18466 Posts
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mordek
United States12704 Posts
Voice was a little creepy though but good stuff | ||
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BigJoe
United States210 Posts
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NExt
Australia1651 Posts
thx for sharing you sxc | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
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