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I was talking to a pretty close friend of mine, and I was the one responsible for introducing him into the world of StarCraft mainly Brood War, but we do play SC2 from time to time. We had an interesting discussion about one thing that Blizzard added to SC2, ROCKS YES DESTRUCTIBLE ROCKS AND PVZ/ZVP.
Here are some credentials:
Both him and I are C+/C level on ICCup, with me mainly playing Protoss and him playing Zerg. He is a platinum level Zerg on SC2, and I'm around the same.
So here is what we talked about:
Rocks are often placed to block off a lot of viable third bases. In Brood Wars ZvP, the correct and most efficient way of dealing with the forge FE is to double expand. This is true because you can simply get away with it. Even +1 speehdlot attacks you can hold it off with ease if you make the necessary preparations. From there builds like 3 base spire into 5 hatch hydra were developed. Keeping down corsair numbers with scourges and hydras to engage the 2/3 base army of the protoss.
My friend raised an interesting argument that rocks right now raised a problem for zergs because they can't follow the same build idea. With 3 armor you can't take them down fast. We played on a lot of BW maps like Fighting Spirit in SC2, and yes you can get away for sure double expanding versus a forge FE. Maybe it won't be long for something like 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra to develope in SC2.
ZvP in Brood Wars is like this. When the protoss battle ball is reached, there is absolutely nothing the zerg can throw against it to kill it. Zergs must do their best to stop the protoss from reaching the battleball. This ranges from defiler play and crackings to snipe bases to drops. The zerg should be aggressive to keep key unit numbers down. Unfortunately this is also true for SC2, but the lack of an quick third can really hinder this. The lack of a quick third can also play on the zerg psychologically as well or at least I think because it forces zergs to play more passive.
ZvP is following a similar trend to its BW counterpart. Zergs having to deal with air harass and then transition into a macro game (3 base spire into 5 hatch hydra is the BW counterpart that deals with this kind of protoss FE play). A lot of Blizzard maps have those rocks blocking viable third bases, and this can really hinder the zerg a lot. I could be wrong, but this is just something interesting we discussed that I would like to share. So take it with a grain of salt if you wish.
Also if you are new to Brood War:
This is a very helpful read
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/3_Base_Spire_into_5_Hatch_Hydra_(vs._Protoss)
I also recommend you watch the example games at the bottom of the page.
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How are you C+ on ICCup and only plat in sc2...
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On April 26 2011 16:56 _Darwin_ wrote:
How are you C+ on ICCup and only plat in sc2...
I don't play that much, I just like to play UMS maps and custom games. Too much Dawn of War II for me, as i just like that game's multiplayer right now. TBH I did cheese lot to get to C.
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Yeah many people don't understand how bad rocks are for zerg. Let's take Tal Darim map and every toss or terran gets FE there and not only zerg's FE is later, he also can't take the third because of rocks. I don't even mention if toss decides to cannon rush your natural you just can't go anywhere unless to the other side of the map.
Toss and terran does not have this problem because when they take 3rd they already have army which can kill those rocks in 10 seconds.
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Very interesting information. As Terran I haven't been too concerned with ZvP, and I wasn't very familiar with how it played in BW.
I have been saying that I thought a lot of balance issues in the current build were due to maps. It will take some time for us to figure the maps out in SC2, and the process will be semi-reset with upcoming expansions.
This idea of making easier thirds is certainly something that's worth a try.
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Yes, alpina is right. In theory I'm supposed to double expand if toss goes for a Nexus first, but on tal darim, I dunno how I'm supposed to double expand with rocks blocking my 3rd..
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On April 26 2011 17:00 Gfire wrote:
It will take some time for us to figure the maps out in SC2
Well it's not difficult to remove the glaring imbalances, like close spawns near insta-lose for Zerg. GSL did this easily.
And I don't really understand the destructible rocks rationale either. Seems like an intentional obstruction to Zerg. Like developers thought if it was immediately available Zerg would be too strong.
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C+ in iccup!! and only plat in sc2?? Lol, Dude the Diamond players in sc2 are like E- ^^.
On Topic: When zergs took their third in bw didnt they usually take it at an expansion of a main base? Then they built a sim city and stuff, but in sc2 its really hard to do that since warpgate is super amazing. But I'm not a big fan of destructible rocks either and I think they would help zergs take a closer third.
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What? How hard is it to build a few early lings to kill them off? I always scout with 2 sets of lings and then use a 3rd and 4th to start picking at the rocks....at the time I have a few roaches/more lings/w/e I'm building they just help finish the rest off....
However the rocks on that third piss me off to no end. Theres also the 4th base you can take between 2 bases as your third then expand to your second natural on tal'darim 
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Rocks are awful, not only because they have a pretty big impact on balance that can NOT be the same in the whole map pool (meaning, you can't balance the game based on both maps with and maps without maps) but moreover because they limit strategical options.
The game has gotten simpler and simpler with each and every patch. (reapers: not fixed but made useless; voidray flux vanes: not fixed but removed; amulet: not fixed but removed) Rocks are only another aspect of Blizzard's way of making the game more noob-friendly. The logic is simple: if you can be 100% sure that your opponent is NOT double-expanding, then there's one thing less that you have to account for.
There are some rocks that serve a good strategical purpose, for example rocks towards the back-oriented third on xel naga! Here zerg CAN double expand, but it's crazy risky if the rocks are still in place. Since toss can just lol at the hatch with a 5 gate attack. This is one of the rare examples of rocks not limiting gameplay but modifying it...not removing options, but making some options more/less viable.
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On April 26 2011 17:15 sleepingdog wrote:
Rocks are awful, not only because they have a pretty big impact on balance that can NOT be the same in the whole map pool (meaning, you can't balance the game based on both maps with and maps without maps) but moreover because they limit strategical options.
The game has gotten simpler and simpler with each and every patch. (reapers: not fixed but made useless; voidray flux vanes: not fixed but removed; amulet: not fixed but removed) Rocks are only another aspect of Blizzard's way of making the game more noob-friendly. The logic is simple: if you can be 100% sure that your opponent is NOT double-expanding, then there's one thing less that you have to account for.
There are some rocks that serve a good strategical purpose, for example rocks towards the back-oriented third on xel naga! Here zerg CAN double expand, but it's crazy risky if the rocks are still in place. Since toss can just lol at the hatch with a 5 gate attack. This is one of the rare examples of rocks not limiting gameplay but modifying it...not removing options, but making some options more/less viable.
I love reapers. Pro scout yo. And removing flux vanes & amulet seem to make the game less noob friendly and actually adds complexity to late game protoss.
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On April 26 2011 17:15 sleepingdog wrote:
Rocks are awful, not only because they have a pretty big impact on balance that can NOT be the same in the whole map pool (meaning, you can't balance the game based on both maps with and maps without maps) but moreover because they limit strategical options.
The game has gotten simpler and simpler with each and every patch. (reapers: not fixed but made useless; voidray flux vanes: not fixed but removed; amulet: not fixed but removed) Rocks are only another aspect of Blizzard's way of making the game more noob-friendly. The logic is simple: if you can be 100% sure that your opponent is NOT double-expanding, then there's one thing less that you have to account for.
There are some rocks that serve a good strategical purpose, for example rocks towards the back-oriented third on xel naga! Here zerg CAN double expand, but it's crazy risky if the rocks are still in place. Since toss can just lol at the hatch with a 5 gate attack. This is one of the rare examples of rocks not limiting gameplay but modifying it...not removing options, but making some options more/less viable.
I agree with pretty much everything you say. This is why I don't play too much and after half of season one I just gave up playing and left my rank there to rot. UMS maps and custom games are still fun though.
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i've been saying this for months. it really screws zerg over and forces them into an all-innish style on certain maps such as temple, and tal darim. the protoss can fast expand and wall off and get a voidray, and since zerg has no mobile anti-air, they cannot hold a 3rd at a further base, because you just cant get the creep spread going.
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I really liked the way the map "Testbug" placed rocks infront of the minerals instead of at the expansion, this meant that you could still place a fast 3rd, but you need to destroy the rocks infront of the minerals before you could actually mine. But yes rocks is awful for zerg, cause of their 3 armor lings take forever to take them down. Rocks are the least problem for protoss cause of their high dm + ranged units, and terran is only ranged so it's not really like they have a problem taking rocks down either. I just don't like rocks in general really..
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On April 26 2011 17:22 AnAngryDingo wrote:
i've been saying this for months. it really screws zerg over and forces them into an all-innish style on certain maps such as temple, and tal darim. the protoss can fast expand and wall off and get a voidray, and since zerg has no mobile anti-air, they cannot hold a 3rd at a further base, because you just cant get the creep spread going.
Zerg really need something like scourges...
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On April 26 2011 17:31 Fraggle wrote:
I really liked the way the map "Testbug" placed rocks infront of the minerals instead of at the expansion, this meant that you could still place a fast 3rd, but you need to destroy the rocks infront of the minerals before you could actually mine..
Yes i like this feature too
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On April 26 2011 16:54 G3CKO wrote:I was talking to a pretty close friend of mine, and I was the one responsible for introducing him into the world of StarCraft mainly Brood War, but we do play SC2 from time to time. We had an interesting discussion about one thing that Blizzard added to SC2, ROCKS YES DESTRUCTIBLE ROCKS AND PVZ/ZVP. Here are some credentials: Both him and I are C+/C level on ICCup, with me mainly playing Protoss and him playing Zerg. He is a platinum level Zerg on SC2, and I'm around the same. So here is what we talked about: Rocks are often placed to block off a lot of viable third bases. In Brood Wars ZvP, the correct and most efficient way of dealing with the forge FE is to double expand. This is true because you can simply get away with it. Even +1 speehdlot attacks you can hold it off with ease if you make the necessary preparations. From there builds like 3 base spire into 5 hatch hydra were developed. Keeping down corsair numbers with scourges and hydras to engage the 2/3 base army of the protoss. My friend raised an interesting argument that rocks right now raised a problem for zergs because they can't follow the same build idea. With 3 armor you can't take them down fast. We played on a lot of BW maps like Fighting Spirit in SC2, and yes you can get away for sure double expanding versus a forge FE. Maybe it won't be long for something like 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra to develope in SC2. ZvP in Brood Wars is like this. When the protoss battle ball is reached, there is absolutely nothing the zerg can throw against it to kill it. Zergs must do their best to stop the protoss from reaching the battleball. This ranges from defiler play and crackings to snipe bases to drops. The zerg should be aggressive to keep key unit numbers down. Unfortunately this is also true for SC2, but the lack of an quick third can really hinder this. The lack of a quick third can also play on the zerg psychologically as well or at least I think because it forces zergs to play more passive. ZvP is following a similar trend to its BW counterpart. Zergs having to deal with air harass and then transition into a macro game (3 base spire into 5 hatch hydra is the BW counterpart that deals with this kind of protoss FE play). A lot of Blizzard maps have those rocks blocking viable third bases, and this can really hinder the zerg a lot. I could be wrong, but this is just something interesting we discussed that I would like to share. So take it with a grain of salt if you wish. Also if you are new to Brood War: This is a very helpful read http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/3_Base_Spire_into_5_Hatch_Hydra_(vs._Protoss)I also recommend you watch the example games at the bottom of the page.
I think there are many things that change from BW ZvP & SC2 ZvP.
Protoss have sentries to deal with early harass, it's way easier to wall in and it's almost perfect, ling are weaker, no lurkerz to stand position or contain, hydra are slow like hell... etc.
Rock are only one thing.
It's true that I am always searching for my third in this kind of position, but in most maps you have a third that is not too far yet not too undefended and with no rocks (tal darim, crossfire, xel naga, etc.).
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I've always wondered what the exact reasoning was behind placing the rocks. They seem to be pretty consistent amongst maps from the map pool, so I'm pretty sure they've put much thought into it.
Maybe I'll edit some of the maps and play a couple of customs with some friends, see how it plays out. Hmm... Looking forward to it.
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This is exactly true, the OP makes a great point. Maps with rocks at thirds are not very good for zerg because of the larve mechanic. Zerg macro games succeed because the zerg can defend at a minimum, being able to drone as hard as they can before the prospective push they scout comes.
Because zerg must build there army as last second as they can get away with to maintain a resource collection rate advantage (which they need to stay even, due to how inefficient zerg units are especially vs high tech deathballs), It puts the zerg economy otherwise behind to have to build units to break down rocks. Most zerg units dont have bonus armored attack so it also takes longer than other units to break down rocks with that minimum they must do in order to do it. Other races production is quite different and dont have to make the choice between building units and building workers. Therefore P and T players will always have a decent sizer standing army to break down rocks with bonus damage against rocks (marauders/tanks, stalker/immortal). I feel that rocks put zerg at a slight disadvatage compared to maps where there are none. The timing of zerg's third base in a macro game is much earlier than other races and they lack a large standing army with armor dmg bonus to insta kill it.
I'm a High Masters Zerg if anyone needs to know my credentials.
IMO, I think rocks are gimmicks that need to be removed
It would encourage more macro play and allow for zerg to be more diverse with macro builds, like the quick third builds NesTea has been doing.
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GSL maps don't have those annoying third base rocks I think. I might have to browse some GSL games to see.
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I'm not a top master zerg, but I do find the expansion rocks very frustrating. I love rocks that block attack paths and entrances etc, I feel that they make maps more interesting and dynamic. Expansions on the other hand....
Often I feel that I COULD defend an early third base, but I just don't have the units to destroy the rocks - it takes a small handful of zerglings a LONG time to destroy the rocks due to the armour (3 armour = 60% damage reduction). By the time a Protoss or Terran wishes to take his third they will already have a decent number of units available to do so, not to mention that many of those units also have bonus damage to armoured and have higher damage attacks (a zealot, for example, only has a 38% damage reduction assuming no upgrades).
The only reason I can see for expansion rocks is to hinder the potential economy gain of a Zerg player. The real question is - is that necessary hindrance?
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One thing I forgot to mention, zergs in BW can take farther thirds because they can play sim city very easily. However in SC2, without scourges, a very mobile anti air unit, they cannot defend further expansions easily, and creep can not be spread that fast. Let's not forget warpgates, which makes defending far thirds a nightmare.
I am not bitching about balance or anything, ZvP and PvZ is pretty well balanced in my opinion at least. Just one map feature, simply rocks, is possibly ruining a whole matchup.
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On April 26 2011 16:56 _Darwin_ wrote:
How are you C+ on ICCup and only plat in sc2...
I had exactly the same idea :/
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EPT
