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Patch 1.3.3 PTR - Page 89

Forum Index > SC2 General
4401 CommentsPost a Reply
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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully.
Gaspa
Profile Joined February 2011
Brazil109 Posts
April 26 2011 17:42 GMT
#1761
Terran myself, I'm quite pleased with the bunker change. It just had to be done.
"I cannot believe you were stupid enough to be offended by what I said" -- A. Schoenberg
KimJongChill
Profile Joined January 2011
United States6429 Posts
April 26 2011 17:44 GMT
#1762
spore crawler...wat? why does blizzard change the most random things with zerg haha
MMA: U realise MMA: Most of my army EgIdra: fuck off MMA: Killed my orbital MMA: LOL MMA: just saying MMA: u werent loss
Trawler
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden382 Posts
April 26 2011 17:44 GMT
#1763
Patch 1.1.0: Zealot build time increased from 33 to 38.

They did this because 2gate was too strong on maps like Stepps of War.

Patch 1.3.3: Zealot train time decreased from 38 to 33.

... Now when Zelots will train as fast as they did when they we're imballenced we still have stepps of war, in form of Close postition spawns. I think toss will just overrun ppl in the begining of the game. Or even proxy more often. Poor zergs, all I have to say.
Golgotha
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Korea (South)8418 Posts
April 26 2011 17:45 GMT
#1764
On April 27 2011 02:44 Trawler wrote:
Patch 1.1.0: Zealot build time increased from 33 to 38.

They did this because 2gate was too strong on maps like Stepps of War.

Patch 1.3.3: Zealot train time decreased from 38 to 33.

... Now when Zelots will train as fast as they did when they we're imballenced we still have stepps of war, in form of Close postition spawns. I think toss will just overrun ppl in the begining of the game. Or even proxy more often. Poor zergs, all I have to say.



we just cant fast expand as much. instead go into speedling expand.
Trawler
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden382 Posts
April 26 2011 17:48 GMT
#1765
On April 27 2011 02:45 Golgotha wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2011 02:44 Trawler wrote:
Patch 1.1.0: Zealot build time increased from 33 to 38.

They did this because 2gate was too strong on maps like Stepps of War.

Patch 1.3.3: Zealot train time decreased from 38 to 33.

... Now when Zelots will train as fast as they did when they we're imballenced we still have stepps of war, in form of Close postition spawns. I think toss will just overrun ppl in the begining of the game. Or even proxy more often. Poor zergs, all I have to say.



we just cant fast expand as much. instead go into speedling expand.


This, is in itself a hugh nerf to zerg.
Neo.NEt
Profile Joined August 2010
United States785 Posts
April 26 2011 17:48 GMT
#1766
Pretty worried about proxy gaters... maybe I'll need to 9 drone scout or something. I've seen two different guys who were pretty high in masters who literally proxy gate EVERY game... I bet they are pretty happy.
Apologize.
clusen
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany8702 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-26 17:52:13
April 26 2011 17:51 GMT
#1767
On April 27 2011 02:45 Golgotha wrote:
we just cant fast expand as much. instead go into speedling expand.

You can't expand fast anyway on maps where this can get problematic.

Or do you fast expand at Slag Shit or DQ?

And 4Gate got nerfed in that matchup.
Roxy
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada753 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-26 18:10:47
April 26 2011 17:52 GMT
#1768
This is my analysis of the PTR patch from a masters protoss perspective

On April 26 2011 11:20 Jimbo77 wrote:
Balance

PROTOSS

Archons are now a massive unit.

This is a good change to see as archons were underused and what little use we saw of them evaporated with the nerf to the HT. They were simply a byproduct of an energyless HT.

The thing about archons is that they morph so slow that in any battle that they would have been useful, the battle is over (victory or defeat) before the archon actually transforms. Because of this, you enter a battle with HT that can storm OR Archons. It is very rarely one then the other.

Im interested to see how this will play against a bio terran army. I think that archons will be a huge damage tank (especially with the 100 limit to how much EMP can do to sheilds). I'm not sure if they will be worth the cost of 150/450 gas just to be cannon fodder though (granted more effective fodder than previously).

As archons were rarely (if ever) the optimal unit for attacking zerg, I dont think this will have any effect on this matchup. The thing about units that are effectively melee against zerg is that melee units take damage that would otherwise not be dealt (because of forcefeilds keeping part of the zerg army out of firing range). Having melee units in your protoss ball provides no net gain.

IMO, archons need a little more love from blizzard


Pylon power radius has been decreased from 7.5 to 6.5.

I think this will help to reduce the effectiveness of the 4-gate as well as prevent lots of canon cheese that you see in games. I’m worried that this may make the protoss base more cluttered as it is harder to place buildings and warp units in around those buildings. Should be a negligable difference that can be mitigated with a bit of practice and planning.

I think a more appropriate change would be to now allow pylons to power the high ground (low ground is fine though)


Cybernetics Core

- Research Warp Gate time increased from 140 to 180

Gateway

- Sentry train time decreased from 42 to 37.
- Stalker train time decreased from 42 to 37.
- Zealot train time decreased from 38 to 33.
- Warp Gate unit train times remain unchanged.


This is a profound change that will change nearly every aspect of the early protoss game. Entire build orders and timings will need to be reworked. Whether this is optimal or not, is too early to tell. This is a huge setback as far as protoss metagame goes because all strategies will need to be reworked for timing purposes.

Having said that, I like the possibility that we will have the oportunity to put some early pressure on terran and zerg.

As a protoss, I have found that it seems that terran and zerg can take a fast expansion essentially for free (as in, if we all-in 4-gate the fast expansion from the T or Z, if they don’t make some huge mistake, they WILL stop the 4-gate.

I don’t agree with the cheese possibilities of the zealot time reduction, but I think that the early pressure that we will be able to put on will be able to punish a zerg who goes for a 14 hatch or a terran that gets a 15 CC or goes for a straight banshee rush – who knows, maybe Sjow is going to have to start scouting before the 7 minute mark now :D

TERRAN

Ghost
- Cost changed from 150/150 to 200/100.


I understand that ghosts are not as effective as they used to be, but I still think they are more effective than they aught to be.

Terran is already the least gas heavy race, and this change only allows them to further exploit the fact that two bases gives them enough gas to fill out all of their tech trees with a balanced army.

Other races, (off of two bases) need to make choices. 2 bases supports 4 gates and 1 robo. 2 bases supports roach hydra OR muta OR roach infestor

Im also scared of the early timing attacks that this might introduce in tandem with the delayed warp gate time.

I think that the reduced gas cost is to help the TvZ matchup and the infestor strength (a topic I am not qualified to discuss).

Salvage resource return reduced from 100% to 75%.

Its about time this change took effect. 100% salvage was ridiculous. This will punish cheese with a marginal loss for the terran player.


ZERG

Spore Crawler

Root time decreased from 12 to 6.


This will help them defend against early air pressure. Seems fine to me, I don’t imagine this will have any huge impact on the game.



Bug Fixes

Fixed a bug where Ghosts could not quickly EMP the same location.

Fixed a bug where players were still able to stack flying units on top of each other.

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1213111662

IMO Ghost cost change is a little buff.
And zerg buff once again. Nothing concerning expected infestors nerf, sadly.

http://sc2ranks.com/us/941824/Roxy - Masters Protoss: "Respect my authoritai"
Toads
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Canada1795 Posts
April 26 2011 17:53 GMT
#1769
On April 27 2011 02:51 clusen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2011 02:45 Golgotha wrote:
we just cant fast expand as much. instead go into speedling expand.

You can't expand fast anyway on maps where this can get problematic.

Or do you fast expand at Slag Shit or DQ?

And 4Gate got nerfed in that matchup.


I think he didn't say those map because most of the zerg veto those map xD
(。◕ ω ◕。) Beer Time !!!! (。◕ ω ◕。)
Joementum
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
787 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-26 17:58:53
April 26 2011 17:56 GMT
#1770
On April 27 2011 02:45 Golgotha wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2011 02:44 Trawler wrote:
Patch 1.1.0: Zealot build time increased from 33 to 38.

They did this because 2gate was too strong on maps like Stepps of War.

Patch 1.3.3: Zealot train time decreased from 38 to 33.

... Now when Zelots will train as fast as they did when they we're imballenced we still have stepps of war, in form of Close postition spawns. I think toss will just overrun ppl in the begining of the game. Or even proxy more often. Poor zergs, all I have to say.



we just cant fast expand as much. instead go into speedling expand.


That's already a huge nerf to Zerg. Protoss can now go fast-2 gate Zealot pressure into expand while Zerg has to sit pretty and defend it with all his/her larva. The protoss is going to have more workers and will have his expansion up quicker than the Zergs. This is going to trigger Zergs to all-in almost every game that has some 2-gate pressure. That's just my view. It makes the game way too one-dimensional. It forces Zerg to open up with one build and one build only against Protoss.
A marine walks into a bar and asks, "Wheres the counter?"
Necro)Phagist(
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada6660 Posts
April 26 2011 17:57 GMT
#1771
On April 27 2011 02:48 Trawler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2011 02:45 Golgotha wrote:
On April 27 2011 02:44 Trawler wrote:
Patch 1.1.0: Zealot build time increased from 33 to 38.

They did this because 2gate was too strong on maps like Stepps of War.

Patch 1.3.3: Zealot train time decreased from 38 to 33.

... Now when Zelots will train as fast as they did when they we're imballenced we still have stepps of war, in form of Close postition spawns. I think toss will just overrun ppl in the begining of the game. Or even proxy more often. Poor zergs, all I have to say.



we just cant fast expand as much. instead go into speedling expand.


This, is in itself a hugh nerf to zerg.

God forbid a race expanding first should be able to be punished by a cheesy all in... the fact that zergs could survive rushes going hatch first before was kinda fucked up.

Yes I know in BW thats all zergs did and they need more hatch's for larvae.. but this is sc2 bot bw and with queen larvae inject zergs should have to atleast drop a pool before hatch now..
"Are you talking to me? Because your authority is not recognized in fort kick ass!"" ||Park Jung Suk|| |MC|HerO|HyuN|
clusen
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany8702 Posts
April 26 2011 17:58 GMT
#1772
On April 27 2011 02:53 StoLiVe wrote:
I think he didn't say those map because most of the zerg veto those map xD

But most other maps are not that problematic in that regard, 2Gate pressure may be strong against Zerg after the patch , but that does not mean imbalanced.

And proxies are a different case, they are a cheesy all-in, while 2Gate pressure is not.
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10846 Posts
April 26 2011 17:58 GMT
#1773
I could be wrong here, but wasn't the last time the Zealot was -5 secs before the Roach range buff?

This could make the 2 Gate expand way harder to actually hold and make it pretty risky? (if you seriously have gone 2 gate pressure before it).
Ribbon
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5278 Posts
April 26 2011 17:59 GMT
#1774
On April 27 2011 02:21 Haydin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2011 02:05 Ribbon wrote:
On April 27 2011 01:44 -{Cake}- wrote:
On April 27 2011 01:42 Ribbon wrote:
On April 27 2011 01:28 SpaceYeti wrote:
On April 27 2011 01:24 Ribbon wrote:
Fun fact

Even against massive, Spore Crawlers have more DPS that Corruptors and over double the HP. Counting the 50 minerals for the drone, they cost the same amount of minerals/larva and 0 gas and 0 supply.

Obviously, they have a bit less range and a lot less mobility, but I'm *REALLY* interested in trying to fit spores into my army and getting fewer corrupters more hydra/infestors/roach/whatever.

Yeah yeah, Colos outrange, but you can pick them up and relocate. The big pain of the Deathball is that it can kill your army and walk into your main before you remax, so even slowing it down is interesting.

I definitely want to try it out.

Spore crawlers actually have greater range, 7 for a SC vs 6 for a corruptor. Of course, It's the mobility that's really an issue, and the fact that they are ground targetable.

They also cost 25 less minerals.

EDIT: I really wish they'd just up Corruptor range to 8 or 9.


Even better, then. .

I'm really excited about "static" D being in my army. I don't know if it's "good" or even "cute", but it's kind of a cool idea and I really like it.


Reminds me of siege tanks, should be interesting


Don't know if I'd go that far (BUT WOULDN'T THAT BE AWESOME), but it has the potential to make ZvP more interesting to watch, and alleviate balance issues a little. Probably not enough, but a little.

Though, actually, for about the cost of a tank you could get 3-4 spores. That can be tank-like against VR/Colo


What about using queens with your spores/in addition to them? You could ferry them out with OLs or nydus. They also have fantastic AA range vs collo and VRs, and can also heal spores/each other, as well as any broodlords or ultras you have.


Maaaaaybe, but you can't just "have" a lot of queens the way you can throw down a few spores, or recycle spores you made earlier from phoenix/DT defense into part of your army. "A lot of queens" affects the whole build in the way "some spores" doesn't.
clusen
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany8702 Posts
April 26 2011 18:01 GMT
#1775
On April 27 2011 02:58 Velr wrote:
I could be wrong here, but wasn't the last time the Zealot was -5 secs before the Roach range buff?

This could make the 2 Gate expand way harder to actually hold and make it pretty risky? (if you seriously have gone 2 gate pressure before it).

Roach range buff was after release, Zealot build time got decreased in the beta.

Since you can't rely solely on cannons anymore to defend you could be right in that regard :p
sOvrn
Profile Joined April 2010
United States678 Posts
April 26 2011 18:04 GMT
#1776
This salvage change makes no sense. It obviously can't be a balance issue since the difference is 25 minerals which is pretty negligible. It must be blizzard finally giving into the QQ; but if they were going to back away from their initial stance on salvage so easily, why even do it in the first place?
My favorites: Terran - Maru // Protoss - SoS // Zerg - soO ~~~ fighting!
risk.nuke
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden2825 Posts
April 26 2011 18:05 GMT
#1777
On April 27 2011 02:52 Roxy wrote:
This is my analysis of the PTR patch from a masters protoss perspective

Show nested quote +
On April 26 2011 11:20 Jimbo77 wrote:
Balance

PROTOSS

Archons are now a massive unit.

This is a good change to see as archons were underused and what little use we saw of them evaporated with the nerf to the HT. They were simply a byproduct of an energyless HT.

The thing about archons is that they morph so slow that in any battle that they would have been useful, the battle is over (victory or defeat) before the archon actually transforms. Because of this, you enter a battle with HT that can storm OR Archons. It is very rarely one then the other.

Im interested to see how this will play against a bio terran army. I think that archons will be a huge damage tank (especially with the 100 limit to how much EMP can do to sheilds). I'm not sure if they will be worth the cost of 150/450 gas just to be cannon fodder though (granted more effective fodder than previously).

As archons were rarely (if ever) the optimal unit for attacking zerg, I dont think this will have any effect on this matchup. The thing about units that are effectively melee against zerg is that melee units take damage that would otherwise not be dealt (because of forcefeilds keeping part of the zerg army out of firing range). Having melee units in your protoss ball provides no net gain.


Pylon power radius has been decreased from 7.5 to 6.5.

I think this will help to reduce the effectiveness of the 4-gate as well as prevent lots of canon cheese that you see in games. I’m worried that this may make the protoss base more cluttered as it is harder to place buildings and warp units in around those buildings. Should be a negligable difference that can be mitigated with a bit of practice and planning.



Archons doesn't cost 150/450 // 2xHT= 150/300 2xDT= 250/250 HT+DT= 200/275
I also think this will make archons with guardian shields viable vs terran bio

and the pylon nerf will make it easier to scout and hold cannonrushes.
Neo.G Soulkey, Best, firebathero. // http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?show_part=31
superxmikey
Profile Joined October 2010
United States28 Posts
April 26 2011 18:06 GMT
#1778
The pylon radius nerf seems a little strange.

Rather, what blizzard should do is allow buildings to be placed still in the 7.5 range and units cannot spawn after the 6.5 range. Honestly, this coding should not be difficult and 2 rings can indicate the unit spawn and building placement, maybe darker ring for units?

But changing the radius of the pylon is an easier fix so.... laziness?
zhouzhou
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada138 Posts
April 26 2011 18:08 GMT
#1779
Warp gate cooldowns should be higher than gateway build times, if not on par with them. The ability to warp them in anywhere + reduced cool downs makes gateways completely pointless. Gateways might as well just instantly turn into warp gates or build AS a warpgate. It's completely pointless to use gateways after warp gate has been researched.

Or better yet, keep the build times the same for gateways. Add a benefit to warpgate research. Not only does it reduce the build time in gateways by 10 seconds, it gives you the ability to warp them in anywhere at the longer cool down.
Damn, this idea is pretty good...
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-26 18:10:07
April 26 2011 18:08 GMT
#1780
On April 27 2011 03:06 superxmikey wrote:
The pylon radius nerf seems a little strange.

Rather, what blizzard should do is allow buildings to be placed still in the 7.5 range and units cannot spawn after the 6.5 range. Honestly, this coding should not be difficult and 2 rings can indicate the unit spawn and building placement, maybe darker ring for units?

But changing the radius of the pylon is an easier fix so.... laziness?


That's unnecessarily complicated? Pylons have a "building radius" and a "unit radius" that are allllmost the same?? Should Warp Prisms have double radii as well?

Hey, that actually will make some of the 2v2 PZ warp-in cheese weaker too! Hooray!

Or better yet, keep the build times the same for gateways. Add a benefit to warpgate research. Not only does it reduce the build time in gateways by 10 seconds, it gives you the ability to warp them in anywhere at the longer cool down.
Damn, this idea is pretty good...


I actually thought they were going to do this before they released the notes. Adding more of a "defender's advantage" to PvP.
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