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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
I thought the whole point of the gateway change was to make it faster to build units out of gateways than warpgates... if these numbers are correct it literally means nothing. Assuming both players have roughly equivalent warpgate timings there is no advantage to make units out of gateways... i dont see this fixing any PvP 4 gates, the pylon change alone with added vulnerability to warping in units would have been more than enough why tweak with other timings... This patch is seen as a failure to me because the changes to protoss to change PvP have done nothing but change the other matchups... good job blizzard.
You're wrong. The extra seconds can be the difference between having an immortal out or not, or between two cannons up or none at all. PvP is such a twitchy matchup, that extra bit of time will make a whole lot of strategies that could almost hold off a 4-warpgate suddenly become viable.
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On April 26 2011 12:42 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 12:37 Griffith` wrote:On April 26 2011 12:32 moltenlead wrote:
How much more does P have to be nerfed because the damn QQ is satiated.
Spine buff is interesting, gonna change the usage of static d drastically, maybe letting it be built offsite and brought onsite.
Ghost buff is unwarranted imo, already good enough vs P. Bunker is OK I guess, that brings it in line with a cancelled structure.
40 secs more to WG is unbelievable... far too much. Just gonna increase proxy gates in all matchups, and pvp may end up as proxy gate base races rather than macro as the standard to defend. Looks like I will have to play this PTR. Right because 30 sec more on stimpack was totally OK? 170 second stimpack 180 warpgate (which by the way, is almost always chronoboosted 3 times), shaving off 30 seconds in total - > 150 seconds. Archons are fucking ridiculously good against mech as is. The ONLY reason archon wasn't used in BW PvT was because explosive damage did max damage to shields. Here siege tanks do a whopping 35 damage. Now archons are good against EVERYTHING terran has. The only way to counter them would probably be 250mm strike cannons. LOL. sigh. When did Mech ever use marauders...
right because our under used archons got a buff, your underused ghosts got a buff that are equally "OMFG GOOD AGAINST EVERYTHING PROTOSS HAS"
i wonder if standard pvt will be some sort of 2gate gasless expo, into 4 gas hightemps/archons/zealots kinda build w/ the warp gate reserached @ normal time just finished 40 seconds later (or added chrono)
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On April 26 2011 11:26 ScythedBlade wrote:
No more 4 warp gate rushes, and no more valid QQ from zergs on 4 warp gate.
Personally, I like this because throughout my Starcraft 2 life, I have *never* learned how to 4 warp gate properly.
4 warp gate isn't scary as a Z anymore, lol, hasn't been for a long, long time. The warp gate change is for PvP.
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On April 26 2011 12:26 SweetAs wrote:
I think pvp is just going to be the same thing, but like 30 seconds later lolz...
I wish they'd buff hydras, just give them a slight speed increase! They're to iconic, they need to be good.
Also: The spore buff.. is fucking sweet.
Hydras has 2.25 speed (not on creep) and that is what zealots, marines, marauders, colossus, roach, sentry, immortal has too. If hydras would get a speed buff nothing would be able to retreat from them and that would make them op.
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the pylon radius nerf, while positively affecting PvP (high ground warp-in shenanigans are much harder as you have to place them closer to the ledge, where they are easily sniped / you have to
make 2-3 pylons to do the 4 zealot warp-in on time) makes simcitying and wall-offs much harder.
i see toss players initially losing to pylons getting sniped by fast marauder / marine rushes, lings running in due to bad building placement stemming from misjudging the pylon's radius, forge wall-offs taking longer due to the need for more pylons to cover the same amount of space, etc.
i'm not sure how about the warp gate increase time either - in PvP it opens up the possibility of tech and economy based builds seeing as how much weaker the 4 gate will be, since sentries are almost certainly going to be waiting by that time to stop a rush. but in other matchups it throws all the other timings off, especially when it comes to defending marine scv all-ins and heavy pressure builds, etc. the decreased build time on all the gateway units is nice, but this encourages 2 gate proxy zealot rushes again =( it's not such a problem in 1v1 masters and beyond, but 2v2 is going to be very irritating to play..
the archon massive change is amazing - it's much more feasible to go high templar first since archons aren't just backup cannon fodder that you make after templar can't storm anymore. they are actually good units to mix in to either prevent zealots from getting slowed or to deal splash damage behind chargelots. so if terran attacks before storm's done, you can just warp in any templars you have to archons to not die before storm is finished.
alternatively archon / stalker / chargelot can be a feasible unit comp in PvP that ideally would strike before colossus numbers grow out of control. with archons breaking FFs, they can storm up the ramp and stomp a turtling colossus player. it'd be a mid-late game transition that focused on keeping colossus numbers down while exerting map control / hit and run with blink stalkers if you didn't outright kill him earlier.
the spore crawler root change is obviously to help against 2 port banshee and fast VR + phoenix rushes. by being able to root the spore crawler to cover a different part of the mineral line more quickly, you dont need to throw down five spores per mineral line anymore.
however, none of these changes affect the PvZ late late game imbalance where protoss can go 200/200 and a-move to victory, or where protoss can do silly mass force field / mass blink stalker pushes. seeing the best zerg players lose to random protoss players who abuse builds like that is disheartening, and blizzard should already be doing something about it. yet there isn't a sign of that here. meh.
still, this is a step in the right direction for the other matchups, especially with regards to PvP. i was tired of having to go defensive 4 gate every other game anyways.
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I still think spine crawlers should root faster, maybe 9sec instead of 12. There is nothing wrong with using almost all spines for early defense, Broodwar Zergs used a ton of sunkens to defend mm pushes.
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I like these changes. First patch in a long time where all the changes make sense.
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On April 26 2011 12:42 FrodaN wrote:Maybe its me, but one thing I really enjoy about these patch notes is that it came out in time for SotG tomorrow 
Agreed :D
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On April 26 2011 11:39 `ChroMaTe_ wrote:
Anyone realize that the pylon radius change will mess up Protoss wall-ins against Zerg? 7.5 was just enough to fit the Cybercore between the Gateway and Pylon, now the Pylon will be in the way due to the radius ..
This is the first thing i thought of, will need to test it out. -_-. I like all the others tho.
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IMO...
Balance
PROTOSS
Archons are now a massive unit.
Good change should encourage more HT play in PvT.
Pylon power radius has been decreased from 7.5 to 6.5.
Should make low ground shenanigans more difficult to pull off but im not sure how this will effect building placement/walloffs.
Cybernetics Core
Research Warp Gate time increased from 140 to 180.
Cool 4 gate nerf, im following...
Gateway
Sentry train time decreased from 42 to 37.
Stalker train time decreased from 42 to 37.
Sentry/Stalker times seem a good way to compensate for the new warp gate time nerf
Zealot train time decreased from 38 to 33.
Ugh not again. This should screw things up a lot lol. Dont see why they needed to touch the zealot as well but ok...
Warp Gate unit train times remain unchanged.
TERRAN
Ghost
Cost changed from 150/150 to 200/100.
Ok I dont play terran, is this supposed to be a nerf or buff? I know a lot of terrans that go MMM are low on minerals not gas so im not sure.
Salvage resource return reduced from 100% to 75%.
BEST CHANGE EVER!!!!
ZERG
Spore Crawler
Root time decreased from 12 to 6.
Good change. I remember they increased the root time because offensive spines were pretty ridiculous and defensively they were very cost effective. I didnt see why they changed the spore time as well so I think its a reasonable change.
Bug Fixes
Fixed a bug where Ghosts could not quickly EMP the same location.
Fixed a bug where players were still able to stack flying units on top of each other.
As long as it doesn't affect non-patrol stacking I dont have a big problem with it.
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On April 26 2011 12:46 ePBuckets wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 12:42 Dommk wrote:On April 26 2011 12:37 Griffith` wrote:On April 26 2011 12:32 moltenlead wrote:
How much more does P have to be nerfed because the damn QQ is satiated.
Spine buff is interesting, gonna change the usage of static d drastically, maybe letting it be built offsite and brought onsite.
Ghost buff is unwarranted imo, already good enough vs P. Bunker is OK I guess, that brings it in line with a cancelled structure.
40 secs more to WG is unbelievable... far too much. Just gonna increase proxy gates in all matchups, and pvp may end up as proxy gate base races rather than macro as the standard to defend. Looks like I will have to play this PTR. Right because 30 sec more on stimpack was totally OK? 170 second stimpack 180 warpgate (which by the way, is almost always chronoboosted 3 times), shaving off 30 seconds in total - > 150 seconds. Archons are fucking ridiculously good against mech as is. The ONLY reason archon wasn't used in BW PvT was because explosive damage did max damage to shields. Here siege tanks do a whopping 35 damage. Now archons are good against EVERYTHING terran has. The only way to counter them would probably be 250mm strike cannons. LOL. sigh. When did Mech ever use marauders... right because our under used archons got a buff, your underused ghosts got a buff that are equally "OMFG GOOD AGAINST EVERYTHING PROTOSS HAS" i wonder if standard pvt will be some sort of 2gate gasless expo, into 4 gas hightemps/archons/zealots kinda build w/ the warp gate reserached @ normal time just finished 40 seconds later (or added chrono)
What a joke, your proposed build will just shatter before you even get anywhere close to templar tech before a push comes.
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Just realised that with the 6.5 range on he pylons they are now out ranged by spines and cannons meaning a siple static defence will do wonders against proxy
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On April 26 2011 12:46 ePBuckets wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 12:42 Dommk wrote:On April 26 2011 12:37 Griffith` wrote:On April 26 2011 12:32 moltenlead wrote:
How much more does P have to be nerfed because the damn QQ is satiated.
Spine buff is interesting, gonna change the usage of static d drastically, maybe letting it be built offsite and brought onsite.
Ghost buff is unwarranted imo, already good enough vs P. Bunker is OK I guess, that brings it in line with a cancelled structure.
40 secs more to WG is unbelievable... far too much. Just gonna increase proxy gates in all matchups, and pvp may end up as proxy gate base races rather than macro as the standard to defend. Looks like I will have to play this PTR. Right because 30 sec more on stimpack was totally OK? 170 second stimpack 180 warpgate (which by the way, is almost always chronoboosted 3 times), shaving off 30 seconds in total - > 150 seconds. Archons are fucking ridiculously good against mech as is. The ONLY reason archon wasn't used in BW PvT was because explosive damage did max damage to shields. Here siege tanks do a whopping 35 damage. Now archons are good against EVERYTHING terran has. The only way to counter them would probably be 250mm strike cannons. LOL. sigh. When did Mech ever use marauders... right because our under used archons got a buff, your underused ghosts got a buff that are equally "OMFG GOOD AGAINST EVERYTHING PROTOSS HAS" i wonder if standard pvt will be some sort of 2gate gasless expo, into 4 gas hightemps/archons/zealots kinda build w/ the warp gate reserached @ normal time just finished 40 seconds later (or added chrono)
Wouldn't that be destroyed by standard mech+ghost play? >.< Thors still dominate Archons.
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On April 26 2011 11:29 MrSnibbles wrote:
Yes.......YES.....YESSSSSSS
I'm loving the spinecrawler change.
???
And I'm loving the void ray, marauder, and infestor changes!!! >.>
Anyways, I suppose their mindset with the Protoss was something like this:
"We want to force the PvP metagame into something other than just 4gate vs. 4gate (even though we often see robo tech and blink already).
Therefore, if we make warp gate tech longer to research, it can be easier to hold off by other tech (or just as easy by the same warp gate tech, but whatever).
Protoss would obviously still die to fast T and Z rushes like before, so we'll make gateway units build faster. However, we probably won't see as many 2gate proxy rushes as we saw earlier on in the game because the maps are bigger."
::shrugs:: Let's see how this works out. As a Protoss, I'm willing to bend a bit.
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The bunker change is so minor, I can't imagine they expect Terrans to use them less judiciously since they'll lose a paltry 25minerals?
Why not attack the root of the problem (offensive bunkers) by increasing salvage time? Its as ridiculous as it is hilarious that bunkers that are being attacked by 10 zerglings or 5 stalkers can be salvaged faster than been destroyed.
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Yes, gateway units train time decreased , no more need for 12 gates and archons !! woot
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On April 26 2011 12:43 Reborn8u wrote:
I might just get hallucinate before warp gate now. Would be really nice to know EXACTLY what terran or zerg is doing that early and not feel behind because I didn't warp gate asap. Or to do hallucinated unit pushes before detection is out.
Best patch yet, no doubts. Game will get so much more interesting in many match ups now.
That is a really interesting idea I had, as well.
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I think people are misreading..or maybe I am...it's JUST the spore crawler that's being changed (for Stargate builds pretty much), NOT spines correct?
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On April 26 2011 12:47 Bloody wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 12:26 SweetAs wrote:
I think pvp is just going to be the same thing, but like 30 seconds later lolz...
I wish they'd buff hydras, just give them a slight speed increase! They're to iconic, they need to be good.
Also: The spore buff.. is fucking sweet. Hydras has 2.25 speed (not on creep) and that is what zealots, marines, marauders, colossus, roach, sentry, immortal has too. If hydras would get a speed buff nothing would be able to retreat from them and that would make them op.
Zealots have charge
Marines have Stim
Marauders have stim
Collosus can navigate up and down cliffs
Roach have a speed upgrade
Sentry can cut off to retreat if given energy
Immortal has nothing
Hydras have creep - way more of a defensive thing if versing a good player (creep gets cut off, hydras slow on offense)
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On April 26 2011 12:31 sYz-Adrenaline wrote:
Can someone explain to me why 4gate won't be the norm still, just because time got increased doesn't mean it's still not viable right?
Would it mean that the protoss player defending the 4gate would be able to get out enough units / robo units in time for when the 4 gate finishes?
The combination really. Making warp gate research longer and gateway unit build time less so means that you're not crippled if you chrono-boost probes instead of the core, you can still be more competitive with unit production vs the guy that got warp gates 20 seconds earlier.
Also, the pylon radius is a factor.. I think (haven't tested it yet) that this means you cannot place a pylon on the low ground anywhere that can reach the high round *without also* being in range of stalkers from that high ground (there are a few situations currently where this is the case - to be fair though, most 4gates just build multiple pylons and put them in range of the defenders deliberately - shots wasted on them aren't being used on the attacking army).
In general I'm against balance patches in most cases; and where it must be done, I like slight tweaks instead of major overhauls (e.g. amulet removal was too much for me; I liked the +15 or +20 starting energy suggestions)
That said; this patch seems to have taken a pretty light touch to things. 25 minerals on a salvage is not much, and everyone has been laughing heartily at how dumb 100% refund on a flaming bunker is for a long time (see banelingbbq lol).
I like the spore crawler change. I felt bad for zergs when a charged void ray or couple of banshees move in on a hatch from a new angle, and they couldn't even move the crawlers to respond coz they died before rooting.
Ghost costing less gas. Not sure about this one. EMP is pretty devastating, and now it's going to be easy to just get a bunch of ghosts to the point where you just don't have enough templars to feedback them, even if you do manage to outmicro the ghosts to hit it first.
Archon being massive - well, the Archon did need some love. My only complaint on this is an aesthetic one - all the races had one massive ground unit and one air. Now Protoss have two ground. That doesn't feel elegant. But it's probably a good net change.
No infestor nerf - what are people complaining about this for? Fungal growth is now an awesome spell, yep, and it has great synergy with banelings, vs flying units, etc etc, yep. But EMP and psi storm are both awesome spells too, that have their own synergies. Any of the three can turn the tide of battle now. I don't see why people think zerg having an AOE damage spell is OP when the other races have always had them. (MAYBE I could understand terran complaints in TvZ because EMP is only useful against infestors; but as the saying goes: for everything else, there's siege tanks).
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EPT
