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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
On April 26 2011 11:44 Bobster wrote:
Everyone crying "oh no 2Gate Zealots!!" now - that's exactly what the PTR is for.
I don't believe it'll be a problem, it'll just reinforce the importance of properly scouting for proxies.
Someone needs to check if the chronoboosted Zealot spawns before the first Marine is out of production. Something tells me it will be but you're correct, every race is going to have to make sure to scout earlier than they're accustomed to for proxy gateways particularly on 2 player maps.
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I like the changes. Even as a Terran player, I love the Archon change, it's such a cool unit that has such awesome stats on paper, now with it no longer vulnerable to concussive shells, I look forward to seeing it in battle!
WG time is a nice change, but would it really end 4-gating PvPs? 4 gates are just delayed by 40 seconds (or less with chronoboost) and I guess that means an extra immortal with chronoboost, but will it change the fundamental way players approach PvP?
The Ghost change makes me giddy with delight, especially since Infestors (and potentially Archons) are more widely used and EMPs are essential to dealing with them cost-effectively. Also late-game sniping broods and ultras. :D
Just one small whine, early Protoss pressure with gateway zealots and stalkers are annoying as hell especially against only marines, and with these proposed changes more than ever with faster building gateway units and slower bunkers, though 25% is insignificant, 2 salvages=1 marine is nothing.
In all, I feel these are good balance changes, a good step in the right direction.
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On April 26 2011 12:32 moltenlead wrote:
How much more does P have to be nerfed because the damn QQ is satiated.
Spine buff is interesting, gonna change the usage of static d drastically, maybe letting it be built offsite and brought onsite.
Ghost buff is unwarranted imo, already good enough vs P. Bunker is OK I guess, that brings it in line with a cancelled structure.
40 secs more to WG is unbelievable... far too much. Just gonna increase proxy gates in all matchups, and pvp may end up as proxy gate base races rather than macro as the standard to defend. Looks like I will have to play this PTR.
Right because 30 sec more on stimpack was totally OK?
170 second stimpack
180 warpgate (which by the way, is almost always chronoboosted 3 times), shaving off 30 seconds in total - > 150 seconds.
Archons are fucking ridiculously good against mech as is. The ONLY reason archon wasn't used in BW PvT was because explosive damage did max damage to shields. Here siege tanks do a whopping 35 damage. Now archons are good against EVERYTHING terran has. The only way to counter them would probably be 250mm strike cannons.
LOL. sigh.
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On April 26 2011 12:36 OMG.The.AvataR wrote:
What does making archon a massive unit do?
Read the thread!
It can crush forcefield and will not be slowed by marauder.
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On April 26 2011 12:34 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 12:33 krell wrote:
I'm terrified of Archons now. Thank god ghosts are cheaper because T is going to need a shitload of EMP's to survive. I don't think making them massive is a good Idea. Chargelots already make a P army seem like an unstoppable wall, this will just make that worse.
Also, the fact that they spawn off of templars with 0 energy is awful. Why? Because if a ghost EMP's tightly packed HT's they just become Archons. I feel like an archon merge should cost energy, albeit 25. So if a protoss has 10 HT's (Not completely unreasonable), and they all storm/get emped and have zero energy left, protoss has to sit around with 20 supply of completely useless units waiting for 25 to turn into archons?
Yes, because Krell plays T so obviously he doesn't want to be disadvantaged!
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On April 26 2011 12:34 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 12:33 krell wrote:
I'm terrified of Archons now. Thank god ghosts are cheaper because T is going to need a shitload of EMP's to survive. I don't think making them massive is a good Idea. Chargelots already make a P army seem like an unstoppable wall, this will just make that worse.
Also, the fact that they spawn off of templars with 0 energy is awful. Why? Because if a ghost EMP's tightly packed HT's they just become Archons. I feel like an archon merge should cost energy, albeit 25. So if a protoss has 10 HT's (Not completely unreasonable), and they all storm/get emped and have zero energy left, protoss has to sit around with 20 supply of completely useless units waiting for 25 to turn into archons?
Yes because getting 10 HT's EMP'd is a huge mistake on the protoss' part. Also, they would have to have <125 energy to go to 0.
Just like 1HT can kill 25 marines if a T is weak.
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I am pretty excited about these changes. Can't wait to get on the PTR and see how it is! :D
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Great changes. I think those will help fix many problems in the PvP and TvP matchups. Equalizing gateway production with warpgate is a good call. Massive archons make templar tech in PvP possible because you can now bust FF with them. Slower warpgates means that 4wg push will hit at same time as 3 rax stim, which is nice. Ghost change kinda equalizes the improved archon in TvP, I think it will effect TvZ more but we'll see.
I'm not sure if any of this will fix ZvP. Less worrying about 4 gate as much is nice, but now Z need to worry more about 2 gate. However the pylon field radius change will make protoss walls and FE more vulnerable to busts and runbys. Tough to call.
I don't think the ghost change will effect TvZ much, usually in TvZ you make only 3-4 ghosts and the cost change isn't enough to make them massable. I think its great for TvT though (not that TvT needs much fixing) Bunker change is nice, but not enough to fix Zerg in TvZ. They should've the Spore root decrease to spines as well, its spines that need it more than spores. Yes crawler rushes in ZvZ suck but honestly PvP is fine with cannon rushing and TvT is fine with bunker rushing.
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I thought the whole point of the gateway change was to make it faster to build units out of gateways than warpgates... if these numbers are correct it literally means nothing. Assuming both players have roughly equivalent warpgate timings there is no advantage to make units out of gateways... i dont see this fixing any PvP 4 gates, the pylon change alone with added vulnerability to warping in units would have been more than enough why tweak with other timings... This patch is seen as a failure to me because the changes to protoss to change PvP have done nothing but change the other matchups... good job blizzard.
On April 26 2011 11:35 Teivospy wrote:
Warpgate cooldown times for zealot sentry stalker (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Warpgate):
28
32
32
patch change suggests these times:
33
37
37
Gateways have an inherent 5 second warp in time
actual build time (cooldown + warpin time) out of gateways:
33
37
37
-------
using warpgates are still faster as long as you hit the cooldown timings (since the cooldown resets when you use it and not after the 5 seconds), but its probably easier to macro up using gateways if you don't hit those timings (ie the terran method)
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Lol they fiddled with the bunker.
Rest of the changes are ok, coming from a protoss perspective. WG nerf is enough to change pvp, but keep some level of threat in pvz.
I'm really excited for PvT, I can go back to templar tech which is so much more enjoyable for me than collosi, and maybe even fast stalker pressure.
The possibilities are endless :D <3 sc
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My initial thoughts:
- Archons could be very interesting in PvP now - I don't think they will fully eliminate the "war of the worlds" Colossus battles because Cols still have the upper hand because they sit away from the battle and can still do damage. I think DT rush might become a little more useful now though, if you DT and get stopped, you can always continue to switch into Archons and I'm willing to bet there is a timing push based on a couple of Archons somewhere in the mix
- Archons may become a key unit in PvT now, (finally imo) because of the Massive addition - finally we'll have a point where it's not "If I don't build Colossus, I lose" - which is really starting to piss me off, and I was almost considering switching races because of that fact. No more "lol an Archon, laters bro while I kite you into non existence" says the Marauder
- No more Mass phoenix to lift Archons and kill them - that strat was way too powerful.
- Early cloak-Ghost may see a resurgence again - a little while ago (TLO started it I believe) there was that 1 ghost cloak DT-style worker attack which was a bitch to deal with if you didn't see it - now with the lower amount of gas it's much more viable.
- Void Ray damage against Massive Archons is about 15.9 DPS (before shield/armour upgrades or air weapon upgrades) if my maths serves me well
- Proxy 2gate will be interesting for Zerg to deal with again
- Finally salvage gets a nerf, while I loved that mechanic/part of the game - it still seemed a bit bitchy in my eyes.
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i cant get on the PTR with this patch... can anyone else get on PTR with 1.3.3 ??
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On April 26 2011 12:35 StoLiVe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 12:33 windsupernova wrote:On April 26 2011 12:31 StoLiVe wrote:
More i read this thread, more I get angry against my fellow zerg. Blizz still buff our race, change a lot of thing to make our life easier and we still conplain about somes things who never ever try to fend off. GOD STOP WHINING AND TRY TO FIND THE WAY TO BEAT THE BUILD.
2 gate proxy is not that big. Its always like this whenever a patch comes out. People are just too lazy >_> I know but it still mostly zerg. I hate when ppl come to me and when i say i'm a zerg they think i'm a whinner because most of the zerg whine like a little babies
Nobody is whining, except you about others whining.. they are discussing the patch notes.
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Terran player here. I like the ghost change (obviously), will always trade 50 mins for 50 gas. Bunker salvage nerf is ok by me, probably should have been this way from the beginning to be honest. Not sure how the toss nerfs will effect me yet, guess we'll just have to wait and see. Spine crawler buff seems pretty huge to me, quite a big decrease in burrow time - although probably warranted.
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On April 26 2011 12:00 Acritter wrote:
This is quite the MASSIVE patch.
Haha, get it? I said massive, like the new Archons.
Seriously, I am very pleased with this. I love it as a Protoss player, and I'm very enthusiastic about the buff to Ghosts (PvT imba in favor of P, IMO). I'm not looking forward to Zergs getting used to abusing Fungal, though. Archons should help mitigate that, I guess.
Lol why is PvT imba in favor of P? Because Marauder Medivac balls are no longer viable? I'm sorry you have to make more than 2 units to win.
Until the day I see Terrans utilizing ghosts more effectively, with ravens, and some tanks thrown in just for the extra splash damage, and STILL lose to Protoss, then I'll admit it. Until then, I have yet to see it. In most games where the Terran actually diversifies his army composition, with a raven or two and some tanks and ghosts, it's pretty hard for the Protoss player to win. I'm sorry if when you can't 1A, you feel like the game is imbalanced in favor of Terran.
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regarding ghosts, is it a bug that you can't spam snipe when they already have a target (they have to finish killing a target first or w/e)? the ability seems practically useless unless you queue it up before they engage.
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On April 26 2011 12:25 Moragon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 11:24 Xapti wrote:
ROFL WAFL
Patch 16: Zealot build time increased from 33 to 38.
Patch 17: Zealot build time decreased from 38 to 33.
Patch 1.1.0: Zealot build time increased from 33 to 38.
Patch 1.3.3: Zealot train time decreased from 38 to 33.
WTF M8? LOL, flip flop much?
I say, if 38 seconds turns out to be too fast again, they should just split the difference and call it a day lol.
Anyways, I see that there is unanimous praise for most, if not all, of these balance changes, which is as sight to behold.
A 5 second decrease in Gateway build times coupled with a 40 second increase in Warpgate research might allow for an extra round of units to be produced from someone with a later Warpgate. A smaller pylon radius might allow for the pylon to be picked off easier, though there needs to be tests done on the PTR to confirm.
Also, huzzah for the Archon gaining weight and becoming massive! Watching an Archon get slowed by Concussive Shells is literally the most painful thing to see, akin to watching an nonathletic person trying to catch a cat. Ever since release, I've wanted to see them get some sort of immunity to Concussive Shells, and I'm glad that it finally happened. However, massive Archons will now be weak against Void Rays which do bonus damage against massive, though Archons never show up in PvP anyways.
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w8 so Ghosts are 200 mins 100 Gas? :D:D:D:D:D:D:D Mech Buff <3<3
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any idea when the patch is actually going to be out on ptr?
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instead of 4gate for pvp, we'll have 3gate archon rush!
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EPT
