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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
On May 04 2011 22:28 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 22:26 Goldfish wrote:
Actually Hardened Shield do not work against Strike Cannons (It's damage considered spell damage and Immortals do not block spell damage with its harden shield). While it will still kill an immortal (it will deal 400 damage total instead of 500), it would give extra time for the Protoss to respond + The Thor takes longer channeling the spell. Really? Could've sworn it was doing 10dmg. No matter, it would make very little difference. Immortals would still be total garbage against thors.
Yeah I just tested it in the editor (I made it so Strike Cannons dealt damage every 1 second instead of 0.24) and it took off 20 per hit to make sure. (You can also check the damage type for the Strike Cannons it does spell).
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On May 04 2011 21:42 ridonkulous wrote:
so mech got officialy killed in tvp, thx blizzard
I disagree. Here why:
Thor: The energy is a nerf since they can be feedbacked, thus weaker agaisn't the high templar path which before was not viable vs mech since they just laugh at storms. However strike cannons before was very problamatic and I, like Tyler, was scared of thors before because of strike cannons and the timings and just generaly being scary big units. Really they could kill immortals and just walk up to collosus, destroy al forcefields and just strike cannon them. Yes it was range 7 vs 9, but it was still scary.
Now if people choose the high templar route to conteract thors there is a chance. But what is the biggest problem with mech? Gas starved. You know what. The ghost just started costing less gas.
Ghost: Now being less gas intensive it will complement well with mech reducing the shield on the protoss army, plus it now adds the skill dimension of emp vs feedback on ghosts or feedback on thors or emp vs immortal. The robo immortal will likely still be present and will require judgement calls on what to emp or feedback from either side.
Myself I think the thor change along with the ghost change, will encourage that protoss has 2 different tech paths vs terran mech where as before collosus immortal was the sole option.
For those who are arguing about the phoenix graviton beam vs mech, with ghost being less gas costly you needed to emp the phoenix once and suddenly thors have a no miss, instant kill, hit of range 7 vs 5.
I'm glad of this change as a Protoss player since it allows us 2 if not 3 tech paths (the carrier approach) vs mech.
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EMP + AoE would be uh, broken? Terran doesn't get a storm/fungal type spell for good reason!
Yeah I just tested it in the editor (I made it so Strike Cannons dealt damage every 1 second instead of 0.24) and it took off 20 per hit to make sure. (You can also check the damage type for the Strike Cannons it does spell).
So at 10 dmg per hit they would take 1.2 ingame seconds more to die. Yeah, that's pretty irrelevant :D
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On May 04 2011 22:28 RoachyRoach wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 22:22 Deadlyfish wrote:On May 04 2011 22:19 RoachyRoach wrote:
I dont understand why people dont snipe tech structures or nex/hatch with strike cannons.
a wicked doom drop on an expo would be comprised of 2 thors and a ghost. GG nexus in 6 seconds. Then just pick up and fly away. Is this not viable at all? Strike cannons do 40 more damage over 10 secs than just a normal attack for the thor : / You'd be better off just droping a few marauders. hmmm I suppose that a thor ghost drop would be feedback heaven for the P aswell... I remember for the first couple months of playing this game I thuught the strike cannons was an aoe spell. First time I used it I dropped a thor in a mineral line to hit the probes..remember thinking "wtf is this trash?!" as I strike cannoned a single probe. Take the unit gibbing out and just make it an AoE spell with some damage nerf obviously IMO.
I remember doing my first banshee harass and sees it fire 2 missiles and damaging only 1 probe, it made me think, wtf is this crap? Granted Banshee are still powerful harassment units but you can imagine how disappointed I was
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On May 04 2011 22:18 ClueLessx3 wrote:
Overall I really like all of the changes they have done this patch.
Now that 4 gate isn't as powerful as before, the 3 gate robo build would likely dominate pvp. This is the next problem blizzard would have face and tweak.
3 gate Robo is a very different threat from 4 gate. A 3 gate Robo is not aggressive enough to prevent, say, a Stargate opening... and Robotics units cannot shoot up.
If I had to guess the post-patch 'upcoming standard' in PvP, I'd say it's a 3 gate Blink opening.
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Something is wrong when removing an ability from a unit is consider a buff. I rather they removed strike cannons + energy from Thors than keeping it in.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On May 04 2011 22:17 Deadlyfish wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 22:09 marvellosity wrote:On May 04 2011 21:26 Blasterion wrote:On May 04 2011 21:24 marvellosity wrote:
You know guys, they probably made this change to the Thor because practically every single one of Protoss' ground units is countered by Thors once they have Strike Cannons.
Terrans should use Thors more. Thorzain - MC for example on Crossfire. But every ground unit Terran has is countered by Colossus and they're still intact That's just not true. Colossus are very much a support unit while Thors can stand on their own. Thors own Colossi (let's not be pretending we're ever in the situation where we can micro each colossus and forget about all other aspects of the game). Marauders trash colossi, as will tanks, not forgetting the fact they get hit by air. On the other hand, Thors have massive HP, armour, can be repaired by SCVs, and do big big DPS. Now, I'm not complaining about this because that's what the Thor DOES, but when our only potential ground counter in the Immortal is a handy target for being one-shotted, then it becomes very tricky indeed. I'd be happy for the Thor to get Strike Cannons for a much cheaper cost (or even as default, I don't know), but Toss on the ground still need SOME way of killing them. Terrans have such awesome variety in their builds that I don't think they've yet explored the options Thors give them. Thorzain's crushing victories with Thor strats are really just the beginning of the possibilities. Ok, 2 things. 1. Can you give me another example of anyone using thors in TvP except for those 2 games in TSL? I still cant remember any. 2. I really dont like this weird way of thinking in counters. Marauders counter colossus? What? And tanks? Thors were never a problem in TvP until people watched 2 games of thorzain and now apparently decided that they were way too good.
I kinda alluded to your answer to 1) in the last paragraph of my post.
2) I was merely trying to differentiate between Thor being a standalone monster, vs the Colossus being a support monster.
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On May 04 2011 22:30 NPF wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 21:42 ridonkulous wrote:
so mech got officialy killed in tvp, thx blizzard For those who are arguing about the phoenix graviton beam vs mech, with ghost being less gas costly you needed to emp the phoenix once and suddenly thors have a no miss, instant kill, hit of range 7 vs 5. I'm glad of this change as a Protoss player since it allows us 2 if not 3 tech paths (the carrier approach) vs mech.
1. I agree Mech being still viable.
2. Disagree with Strike Cannon being "Instant Kill" because Strike Cannon actually deals less DPS if you have just one weapon upgrade for Thor (this isn't taking into the account the start up and finish times for Strike Cannon). The attack and spell range is both 7.
Though of course this excludes Immortals where Hardened Shield does not activate against Strike Cannon (but you did not specifically say Immortals + you said "Instant" when it in fact deals only 50 damage per second + has a start up animation/time).
Reference.
3. Also remember EMP only takes 100 energy and Graviton Beam only requires 50 (meaning if the Phoenix has saved up 150 energy, it can take a single EMP).
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The warpgate timing nerf will make the 3 roach rush extremely powerful now vs a traditional 3gate expand.
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On May 04 2011 22:45 zJayy962 wrote:
The warpgate timing nerf will make the 3 roach rush extremely powerful now vs a traditional 3gate expand.
Isn't the point of 3 roach rush to hit before Warp Tech anyway? The -5 seconds to Sentry build time should be more relevant.
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Blizzard should actually stop "fixing" SC2 with tons of patches all the time. Instead alowing new stategies to develop and only slight buff its counter or small nerf if they are proven too strong over time they are killing it completely. Sc2 is on its way for 1 best strategy per matchup, Working as intendeed by Blizzard and one dimensional and boring as hell to play or watch.
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Soo.. with the Infestor nerf, the Thor change, the new change to warpgate being only 20s longer (which is nothing with chronoboost) , all the gateway build time decresed and the major buff to archon
This patch is now a huge " let's buff protoss " or did i miss something ?
Edit: Oh, didn't see they revoke the gateway thing beside sentry. Thanks god.
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On May 04 2011 22:50 lunar3force wrote:
Blizzard should actually stop "fixing" SC2 with tons of patches all the time. Instead alowing new stategies to develop and only slight buff its counter or small nerf if they are proven too strong over time they are killing it completely. Sc2 is on its way for 1 best strategy per matchup, Working as intendeed by Blizzard and one dimensional and boring as hell to play or watch.
Well thats just like, your opinion brah.
I love this game. And I love blizzard for making this and other great games.
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hmm so many patch changes it feels more than a beta than a full game,
why make infestors slower? okay now they are good but cripple them like a hydra?
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On May 04 2011 22:55 Noocta wrote:
Soo.. with the Infestor nerf, the Thor change, the new change to warpgate being only 20s longer (which is nothing with chronoboost) , all the gateway build time decresed and the major buff to archon
This patch is now a huge " let's buff protoss " or did i miss something ?
20s is 20s, its not nothing, chrono or no chrono. toss dont have unlimited chrono. it changes the opener by 20s no matter which way u look at it. chrono 2x more on wg? its that means not as many probes. and wg chrono is always constant anyway(for wg rushes)...toss cant just pull 2x more chrono out of thier ass.
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On May 04 2011 22:55 Noocta wrote:
Soo.. with the Infestor nerf, the Thor change, the new change to warpgate being only 20s longer (which is nothing with chronoboost) , all the gateway build time decresed and the major buff to archon
This patch is now a huge " let's buff protoss " or did i miss something ?
Pretty much. What bugs me the most is that it's not like Protoss had any trouble lategame in the first place.
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Wow this thor change is so bad. I am a masters T who uses Thor/marine heavily in TvP and this is really going to hurt my playstyle. I usually did eventually research strike cannons, but even so I often didnt use them that much. The only real opportunities were if the protoss responded with heavy immortal (foolish) or perhaps on the odd colossus if the protoss losses all his zealots too quickly. I didn't feel that my strategy was completely unstoppable as protoss can easily just mix in a couple of voids to draw the stupid thor ai into doing basically nothing.
HT were already fine against thor builds, heres why. Mass zealots do fine against thors, when your going thors, you have a ton of extra minerals so you have to dump them somewhere. Thats where HT's come in, storm the mass marines, or perhaps the hellions, but I personally prefer mass marine support because it counters things like voids and carriers the traditional thor counters (yes I am aware in large numbers thors can beat voids because of clumping up but that is not true in smaller numbers). HT's really hurt my strategy because they kill off all the marines so easily and they are still able to turn into archons or possible drop some storm damage on thors.
Strike cannons are already pretty problematic. You can't use them against collosus in a big fight because of the range issue, your dumb thors will just get stuck behind teh zealots trying to approach the colossus and do absolutely nothing. You can use them against immortals, but I don't see how there is some sort of REQUIREMENT that immortals should counter all of mech just because they counter tanks.
So basically before strike cannons were fairly difficult to use effectively outside of maybe a thor rush. If they were having trouble with thor rushes, they could easily just hvae nerfed the research time by 60seconds or somthing and that would have been fine. This is just awful, now the spell is basically completely unusable and they have buffed HT's while they were at the hack job.
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Im trying to figure out why they would change Thors. As a viewer who mostly watches SC2 over playing it, I see Thors as something you bring out lategame (and only in small numbers) vs Z to battle huge muta balls, barely has any uses in TvT (except for the odd battling of an enemy T going heavy air) or as a extra thing to throw into your army mix vs P. They have their uses but hardly seem to be the go-to unit of any matchup. And strike cannon is seen like once every 20 games I see a Thor. So why would it need changing?
And no, Im not asking you random theorycrafters out there (which I know there are a lot of here) who obviously figured out SC2 and KNOW that "thors are the greatest thing ever, a terran going thor/x/x unit comp can kill anything omg omg omg its really op the pros just havent realized this yet". Please spare me that. Im asking you master/grand master Ts/Ps. Do you Ts use Thors often and feel that you have an easy time rolling over most Ps? And do you Ps often run into heavy Thor using Ts and you feel you dont know how to handle them?
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The Thor change seems to make mech play too risky vs. Protoss. The EMP and Feedback/Storm wars are already intense in bio play, but adding in expensive and six supply Thors that can be neutered by Feedback doesn't seem worth it to me.
The interaction between Ghosts and Templars will always be there, which is good. But, I'm not sure why I would want to choose a mech build over a bio/air one with this change. It just seems to me that there is much more riding on that spell caster exchange playing mech compared to playing bio/air.
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EPT
