EPTEvaluating the Colossus - Page 8
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NoobieOne
United States1183 Posts
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On April 23 2011 07:27 NoobieOne wrote: why haven't people though of tweaking the damage while keeping the role. Colo was made to counter the clumped up armies of week units. Why don't they just change damage from 15 to 10+5 or 9+6 vs light. That will help to fix the issues of Colo countering every unit in the game (Roaches and marauders can now be decent against them. Colo have their purpose i think they are just missed a bit. Here is the thing. Immortals don't counter Marauders/Roaches when the numbers get high. Neither to do Templars, in fact the common response to San's old double forge Zealot/Templar/take every base on the map build is Ghost-Marauder. Even Destiny was saying "I dunno, Roaches do pretty well against Immortals", Colossus are your only real threat against those when there are a lot of them On April 23 2011 06:45 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: Well of Protoss players don't need fancy micro or environment usage to properly win with colossi its the opponents faults for making it too easy. Not sure if this was sarcasm. Protoss is the only race with actual unit formations--Zealots front row, then Sentry/Stalker, with Colossus behind and Templars/Phoenixes trailing somewhere to avoid AOE--no other race has such a conflict when 1a-ing. Unlike Lings and stimmed Marine/Marauder, Protoss don't have any insanely fast ground units either Zealots infront of Immortals infront of Stalkers/Sentrys infront of Colossus + a templar subgroup in a different spot + Phoenixes in a different subgroup too. And the only race with major conflicts with their formation that screws it up if you have to move due to the difference in speed of all the units within the formation Terran don't actually have unit formations, Medivacs aren't controlled to trail, they are usually set on a follow command, nor are you punished for having Ghosts sitting in the middle of your bioball (but that is kinda dumb anyway since you want to EMP stuff). Tanks + Bio comes close. Stim micro is nice but generally the only thing your controlling in an engagement is your giant bio blob. Zerg don't have much formations much either, or rather there is enough difference in speed with Range/Melee units that it almost always sorts it self out automatically when you 1-a Protoss also is only race with multiple casters that use multiple (Stalker--blink/Sentry--forcefield/Guardian Shield/Templar--Feedback/Storm/Phoenix--Graviton Beam/Mothership--Vortex) abilities in a fight too. Don't get why people always assume it's easier to 1a as Protoss than other races since it is actually quite the opposite. Obviously it isn't a requirement nor is it that much harder in the grand scheme of things but the ultimate goal of any progamer is to control your army with some level finesse, due to the speed of the units it is VERY easy for the formation to completely destroy it self when moving around. | ||
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Dragar
United Kingdom971 Posts
On April 23 2011 07:40 Dommk wrote: Here is the thing. Immortals don't counter Marauders/Roaches when the numbers get high. Neither to do Templars, in fact the common response to San's old double forge Zealot/Templar/take every base on the map build is Ghost-Marauder. Even Destiny was saying "I dunno, Roaches do pretty well against Immortals", Colossus are your only real threat against those when there are a lot of them Immortals are great against roaches, even in large numbers. Maurauders with stim, medivacs and huge range are another matter, but roaches get torn up. Adding one immortal won't make much of a difference to your stalker ball army though, particularly since it will end up on the front lines due to range issues and probably killed. On the other hand, one collosus will make a huge difference, and almost always survive. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
On April 23 2011 07:40 Dommk wrote: Here is the thing. Immortals don't counter Marauders/Roaches when the numbers get high. Neither to do Templars, in fact the common response to San's old double forge Zealot/Templar/take every base on the map build is Ghost-Marauder. Even Destiny was saying "I dunno, Roaches do pretty well against Immortals", Colossus are your only real threat against those when there are a lot of them This is a GOOD dynamic though... and besides... if you haven't you really need to try just staying on 3 gates and 2 robos for a 6-7 immortal gateway timing push... its absolutely tits versus zerg. When you push out take your third add more gateways and a TC and go for blink. Its SUPER effective, no colossus required. | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
On April 23 2011 06:25 ArvickHero wrote: I wonder if BW came out last year, people would complain about the absolute prevalence of Siege Tanks in all TvX matchups They would be complaining about everything. I can just imagine how the forum would look like: "Probe Imbalance" "Siege Tanks too powerful?" "Who is the Protoss King?" "Vultures: An analysis" etc.... | ||
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teekesselchen
Germany886 Posts
On April 23 2011 06:19 Ezekyle wrote: No amount of balance tweaking will fix the main problem with the collosus; that it's boring to watch, boring to use, boring to play against and pathetically easy to control. The only real way to fix the collosus at this point would be to nerf it into oblivion in every matchup, to the point where it becomes like a carrier and people are excited to see it just because they're so rare. I've seen a lot of people in this thread complain that, without the collosus, their terrible gateway units will fall apart - really? Have you been paying no attention to the last few months? Gateway units are more than capable of holding their own if you micro properly and drop the FFs well. We've seen various gateway-only timing pushes annihilate Zerg armies over and over, we've seen San and MC take out top-tier Zergs with almost purely gateway armies, we've seen fast armour upgrades allow gateway units to demolish bioballs. There is nothing wrong with gateway units. And to everyone saying that collosus are fine, Zergs just need to learn to deal with them - Protoss without collosi is fine, you just need to learn to use it properly. Nerfing Colossus to the ground and focussing on gateway only would allow exactly ONE playstyle for protoss and not more, it would make protoss even more one-dimensional than it is right now. But, as you said, no amount of balance tweaking will fix it: Because it's a fundamental problem of SC2 that it will never be balanced right. As I said, units need to be more dependend on skill instead of on their statistical values; Which can be reached by re-replacing colossi with reaver-shuttle, somehow re-arranging the blob-problematic etc... in short, playing Broodwar ^^ Na, srsly, I want SC2 to be good and successful, but right now I can't see it competing with Broodwar when there are not only balance changings income, but actually fundamental changes to the game mechanics. | ||
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jaiiiii
United States72 Posts
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WniO
United States2706 Posts
On April 23 2011 07:55 windsupernova wrote: They would be complaining about everything. I can just imagine how the forum would look like: "Probe Imbalance" "Siege Tanks too powerful?" "Who is the Protoss King?" "Vultures: An analysis" etc.... no... that doesnt make any sense. when bw was released it took 5+ years before people understood how to play a RTS game. its unfair to use that argument. people complain, (and for good reason,) because as a real time strategy game sc2 is pretty developed. i mean hell even some of the pros in the early 2000's didnt even use hotkeys, so that argument has no grounds. | ||
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AndAgain
United States2621 Posts
On April 23 2011 07:46 Dragar wrote: Immortals are great against roaches, even in large numbers. Maurauders with stim, medivacs and huge range are another matter, but roaches get torn up. Adding one immortal won't make much of a difference to your stalker ball army though, particularly since it will end up on the front lines due to range issues and probably killed. On the other hand, one collosus will make a huge difference, and almost always survive. No, immortals actually lose to roaches or marauders cost for cost if you load up the unit tester. Their advantage is that they're more supply effective than those units- theoretically, this is supposed to make immortals a good lategame unit. However, colossi are better anyway in almost any situation in late game. | ||
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Ezekyle
Australia607 Posts
On April 23 2011 07:56 teekesselchen wrote: Nerfing Colossus to the ground and focussing on gateway only would allow exactly ONE playstyle for protoss and not more, it would make protoss even more one-dimensional than it is right now. But, as you said, no amount of balance tweaking will fix it: Because it's a fundamental problem of SC2 that it will never be balanced right. As I said, units need to be more dependend on skill instead of on their statistical values; Which can be reached by re-replacing colossi with reaver-shuttle, somehow re-arranging the blob-problematic etc... in short, playing Broodwar ^^ Na, srsly, I want SC2 to be good and successful, but right now I can't see it competing with Broodwar when there are not only balance changings income, but actually fundamental changes to the game mechanics. Honestly, I'd rather see a SC2 in which Protoss have only 1 playstyle than one in which they have a million different variations on the collosus deathball that are all boring to watch. San does get a lot of love because he went from being a joke to being a fearsome semi-finalist, but he's also popular because his playstyle is exciting and dynamic to watch, as opposed to standard Protoss play which is a 1a snoozefest. But yes, I completely agree about the skill factor, and that's actually a major problem with collosus. Consider a world in which collosi are just as effective as they are now, if not more. In this world, a few collosi can ravage an army, a buch of colloxen with void ray support will destroy infinity Zerg units, the collosorum wars are the focal point of PvP. But in this hypothetical world, the collosus is a skill-intensive unit that's difficult to use. In this theoretical universe, a poorly managed collosus can do next to nothing and die in moments, but when properly microed will bzarp its way through countless hordes of enemies. Protoss, in this world, is not underpowered. They have all the tools at their disposal that they need to deal with roach/hydra, with MMM, with mass blink stalkers. But it's difficult. It requires skill. 1a won't cut it, and so lesser players fall by the wayside. They watch their favourite pro destroy a Zerg in moments with his collosus/void ray army, and when they try it on ladder their deathballs are wiped out in moments. A world in which making a single collosus kill fifty marines is an amazing and exciting moment, not the expected result. This wouldn't change the balance of the game at all. Protoss players could achieve what they currently do as long as they practiced and improved, as long as they earned their wins. But the bad players would no longer be able to sit around on 3base, mass a deathball and win. MC micro lets him demolish an army, while Cruncher is torn apart in moments. That's a SC2 I want to see. But it's just not possible with the current collosus. Of course, this applies to other races as well. I'd love to be able to micro my roach/hydra balls, I'd love to do something other than box my army, 1a, double click my thors and strike cannon the collosi during those climactic 200/200 fights. I'm not saying that only Protoss players are playing low-skill 1a styles. The collosus is simply the most obvious and least skill-intensive of these boring 1a units, and so it naturally attracts the most flak. I don't want to see SC2 become Broodwar. Broodwar is already Broodwar, I'd prefer SC2 to be SC2. But I do want to see it require the same level of skill. I do want to see SC2 battles to be just as exciting for a spectator as BW battles, rather than being 1a pewpewpew bzarp gg. Marine splits are excellent in that regard. Watching MKP or Mvp split their marines in fifty directions in half a second is jaw-droppingly amazing, and it's something that I could watch over and over and still feel that same excitement. So don't get me wrong, while I am hating on the collosus I'm not just demanding that Protoss become difficult to play while Terran and Zerg, the races I play, stay ezmode. I'd just like to see something happen with the most obvious and boring 1a unit, as a way of improving the game and so Blizzard can show they actually do care about the e-sports side of the game. Once the collosus is fixed I'll happily bitch about marauders and hydralisks. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On April 23 2011 07:46 Dragar wrote: Immortals are great against roaches, even in large numbers. Maurauders with stim, medivacs and huge range are another matter, but roaches get torn up. Adding one immortal won't make much of a difference to your stalker ball army though, particularly since it will end up on the front lines due to range issues and probably killed. On the other hand, one collosus will make a huge difference, and almost always survive. What is wrong with it surviving? It takes a very long time to build and is quite expensive, a single Colossus killed in the mid game is a big deal, much the same a single Colossus does not make a difference vs Roaches, there needs to be a lot of them before they start to tear up ground units (thus why you don't want to lose them). Immortal/Stalker/Sentry does very poorly against Mass roach in the late game if the Zerg has a decent economy--High Templar support is almost always needed. Immortals and Colossus work on a different dynamic. There are often two ways with dealing with Zerg compositions, Immortal/Templar and Colossus--each is different but your ultimate goal is Colossus/Templar, however that isn't possible to support until it is very late into the game due to how expensive it is to support both. Each is different but Immortal/Templar is a more reactionary build (if you open Immortal vs Zerg and they happen to do some Hydra push or go Infestor/Ling then you are probably screwed) as opposed to Colossus which is typically are your go-to mid game army. With the new emerging Infestor play it seems high Colossus counts are counter intuitive to what you really want so maybe it might sort it self out in the end. I don't know why I'm having this argument  , I think I'll just wait and see what happens and adapt to whatever is changed. What needs to be done needs to be done and I have a lot more faith in Blizzard to make the right change than the people in these forums arm chair developing  | ||
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Heavenly
2172 Posts
This is the same nonsense theorycrafting as "how can we get rid of OP forcefield", except almost any changes to it would lead to protoss instantly dying. But instead of looking at it from the perspective of "why is so and so necessary" people just see it as the strong unit that counters what they're doing and scream to change it in ridiculous ways to make it easily beatable. Believe it or not, protoss do not win 100% of their matches. If you look at Korea, terrans are the dominant race and almost all of them are just using the bioball still. You think Blizzard doesn't realize colossi are strong? But they remove khydarian amulet and void ray speed, things that not a ton of people were complaining about compared to colossi, but they have made absolute no changes whatsoever to the supposed "super OP" unit of protoss. | ||
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diddLY
United States215 Posts
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FuzzyLord
253 Posts
First off, people complain about how much damage the Colossus does, and how it takes forever to kill unless you go Corrupters. As a Z player, it's actually quite easy to kill the Colossus. Protoss has one structure that makes Colossus, and that's a Robotics Facility. That's also their sole building with detection minus cannons. Now what would happen if you had a roach-heavy army with burrow move coupled with a couple of corrupters and Overseers. You snipe the observers, and just constantly pop out and burrow again with roaches against the P. P then has to make a choice; Do i make observers? Do i continue Colossus production? No matter what they choose, you essentially have the upper hand. Should they decide to make observers, you can just continue to snipe them, and it also lowers their Colossus count. Should they make Colossus, you can continue your burrow unburrow mechanics. People who are like "COLOSSUS OP PATCH IT!" are probably people who just a-move to fight their army and not think about any strategic uses. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On April 23 2011 06:24 Euronyme wrote: God I love when zerg players complain about the collosus being too fast but hydras off creep being so so soooo slow. Fun Fact: Collosi and hydras off creep have the same move speed. Yeah there you go, you can't drop harass because the protoss army that has the move speed of your slowest unit is too mobile? You can't make accurate balance decisions based off of lower level play.. Basically everything should be balanced around what's going on in the grandmaster league or tournaments. Yes, because the Colossus is waaaaaaaay more powerful than the Hydralisk. Why is it that our unit is as slow as your unit but your unit wipes the floor with us? And I don't mean "Colossus counters Hydra." That's not what I'm talking about. The fact is that because Hydra/Roach is so damn slow, then we can't abuse the so-called immobility of the Colossus AND we can't beat it in a headlong fight. Solution: Don't build Hydralisks. Ever. I mean it. IMO that's why zergs have so much trouble with the Protoss Deathball. Because Hydras are incredibly slow for how weak they are, and Colossi are so fast for how powerful they are. You want power? Build Infestors and drop banelings. If you never build Hydras, you will be able use mobility against the colossus map-willing. | ||
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FuzzyLord
253 Posts
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On April 23 2011 08:23 Heavenly wrote: ...Please leave the game balance to Blizzard. Some of these ideas are seriously completely ridiculous. Zergs throw out wild ideas that would completely break PvT (hey let's get rid of the thermal lance upgrade, like we got rid of flux vanes and khydarian amulet, so that marauders can just stim up and kill them in 2 seconds), then terrans throw out equally silly ideas. Theorycraft all you want but they're not going to remove colossi from the game or make any substanial changes. This is the same nonsense theorycrafting as "how can we get rid of OP forcefield", except almost any changes to it would lead to protoss instantly dying. But instead of looking at it from the perspective of "why is so and so necessary" people just see it as the strong unit that counters what they're doing and scream to change it in ridiculous ways to make it easily beatable. Believe it or not, protoss do not win 100% of their matches. If you look at Korea, terrans are the dominant race and almost all of them are just using the bioball still. You think Blizzard doesn't realize colossi are strong? But they remove khydarian amulet and void ray speed, things that not a ton of people were complaining about compared to colossi, but they have made absolute no changes whatsoever to the supposed "super OP" unit of protoss. Haha, kinda had the same thoughts reading these posts. Just don't get worked up about it. It is pretty annoying to see a group of people support a change that is somewhat absurd but take solace in the fact that regardless of how poorly people speak of Blizzard, they would never implement any of the more ridiculous changes you see here. They have done a great job so far with balance, there are issues but as long as the goal is balance and not screwing over a race because it is somewhat strong right now then I have more than enough faith in Blizzard to do the right thing | ||
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USApwn
United States81 Posts
So many options have yet to be explored. | ||
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Gofarman
Canada645 Posts
This type of OP doesn't foster good discussion about anything and should be closed. | ||
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Belha
Italy2850 Posts
Non-protosses must understand that, yes, is a totally shitty a-move unit (like roaches or marauders but tier 3 (casually units designed by the Browder team....)), but without collosi P can't match other races armies, and that is due to a crappy race design. I personally hope Blizz could fix the collosi dependance in the further expansions. However the only match up where collosi is broken is PvP. About the oh famous P death ball with voids: have anyone saw THAT ball repeatedly in PRO games (aka the games that mather for balance)?? Seriusly, i only saw that ball in the Idra - Cruncher TSL3 Shakuras game, and never again. | ||
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