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Baarn
United States2702 Posts
On April 23 2011 14:08 Cyber_Cheese wrote: thats not nearly as easy as you make it sound, while your mutas are trying to harass, the protoss uses its deathball to counterpush and win, mutas arent actually that good in combat What deathball? You're doing it wrong if you let protoss sit and macro up. | ||
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Juanald
United States354 Posts
On April 23 2011 14:18 aksfjh wrote: This is probably my biggest problem with Protoss right now. I see some friends who have hardly any dedication or spirit in getting better, but play Protoss. They come up with cheesy builds, cut workers, and are generally just stupidly aggressive. If they fail with their aggression, they get out just soon enough to not lose too much, then turtle while teching up to mass colossi+some anti counter unit (phoenix, blinkies, or voidrays) and win games. There is no improvement of worker management, micro, or even super-refinement of builds. Yet, they are able to make it into masters and compete against players who are of a higher caliber, but have the "misfortune" of not playing Protoss. thats realy unfair to say.. when race pressure us its fine but when we presure its cheesy? no improvemint of micro.. realy?? try microing our t1 (zealot stalker) vs something like marines and ul begin to apreciate that all races take skill. | ||
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Animostas
United States568 Posts
Right now Blizzard's trying to balance it by tweaking numbers and such, but I really do feel like it's kind of trying to fix something that's really messy, and that we really have to wait for HotS for the game to be less skewed towards a single unit. | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On April 23 2011 14:10 arb wrote: NP was a good counter to colossus when it didnt expire after what 5? seconds It's 15 seconds ...watch this destruction. Infestors are actually IMBA but no pros use them yet. You'll see... Thread on strat below.. Also the Spanishiwa's build is good to stop 4/5/6 gate while you build up to mass infestor...you already have the lings. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=214187 | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On April 23 2011 14:41 Baarn wrote: What deathball? You're doing it wrong if you let protoss sit and macro up. This is so true. What many don't get is Toss is supposed to own per supply at heavy resource cost. Here is way Blizzard words it: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/game/race/protoss/ Protoss Characteristics Heavy Hitters Pound for pound, the protoss field StarCraft II’s strongest and most durable units. That power comes at a price, as their units tend to be costly There were 3 zergs in Code A yesterday that went though and put on a clinic of not letting Toss & Terran build death balls. | ||
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dave333
United States915 Posts
On April 23 2011 14:41 Baarn wrote: What deathball? You're doing it wrong if you let protoss sit and macro up. Except that the tech path to strong harass (ling bling with drops or mutas) are easy to scout and punish with aggressions. There's a reason mutaling has gone out of fashion almost completely. Meawhile the roach hydra tech path is strong against aggression with burrowed roaches/hydra, but is worse at harass and beating the deathball compared to ling bling infestor | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On April 23 2011 15:26 dave333 wrote: Except that the tech path to strong harass (ling bling with drops or mutas) are easy to scout and punish with aggressions. There's a reason mutaling has gone out of fashion almost completely. Meawhile the roach hydra tech path is strong against aggression with burrowed roaches/hydra, but is worse at harass and beating the deathball compared to ling bling infestor Vibe/Sen do Muta a lot against Protoss. Don't think it has gone out of fashion, I think people just prefer Roach/Hydra as it is easier/safer What is this aggression tactics you speak of again Ling/Baneling 0o? Every time I see it I turtle and become super paranoid  | ||
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Horse...falcon
United States1851 Posts
On April 23 2011 06:24 Euronyme wrote: God I love when zerg players complain about the collosus being too fast but hydras off creep being so so soooo slow. Fun Fact: Collosi and hydras off creep have the same move speed. Yeah there you go, you can't drop harass because the protoss army that has the move speed of your slowest unit is too mobile? You can't make accurate balance decisions based off of lower level play.. Basically everything should be balanced around what's going on in the grandmaster league or tournaments. Hydra's are Zerg's only ground anti-air (other than Queens, which is even slower) we use them to defend bases and armies against air threats. Don't compare Collosus and Hydras because they have different roles. Hydras are less mobile than marines with stim and stalkers with blink. | ||
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Baarn
United States2702 Posts
On April 23 2011 15:25 tdt wrote: This is so true. What many don't get is Toss is supposed to own per supply at heavy resource cost. Here is way Blizzard words it: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/game/race/protoss/ There were 3 zergs in Code A yesterday that went though and put on a clinic of not letting Toss & Terran build death balls. Pretty much this. ^^ It's distressing to put so much effort into wanting something nerfed so badly when the discussions about strategy should be taking place to deal with a particular unit comp. If people put as much effort as they do in trying to sway OP discussions into working on their game plan and strategies in game then the meta game would evolve across the board much faster. | ||
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Juanald
United States354 Posts
On April 23 2011 15:34 Horse...falcon wrote: Hydra's are Zerg's only ground anti-air (other than Queens, which is even slower) we use them to defend bases and armies against air threats. Don't compare Collosus and Hydras because they have different roles. Hydras are less mobile than marines with stim and stalkers with blink. n hydras on crepe move fast as stimmd marines offcrepe fast as marines.. thors slow as queens do marine need speed increase or no health penalty stim? cmon think and stop balance wining. | ||
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Horse...falcon
United States1851 Posts
On April 23 2011 15:40 Juanald wrote: n hydras on crepe move fast as stimmd marines offcrepe fast as marines.. thors slow as queens do marine need speed increase or no health penalty stim? cmon think and stop balance wining. What? Nobody's complaining about anything. I just wanted to point out to the poster that comparing Hydralisks to Colossus is dumb. Also grammar is important when you want people to take you seriously. This isn't a 14 year old's twitter. | ||
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Butterz
688 Posts
I dont think there should be a unit in the game which walks or moves on ground but can be attacked by air units which only attack air . Its just weird to me. Even though i haven't played brood war i dont think there was any unit like Colossus. This is one thing i dont like about colossus. | ||
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RedDragon571
United States633 Posts
^--this | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On April 23 2011 14:50 Juanald wrote: thats realy unfair to say.. when race pressure us its fine but when we presure its cheesy? no improvemint of micro.. realy?? try microing our t1 (zealot stalker) vs something like marines and ul begin to apreciate that all races take skill. Sorry, I thought it was clear that I was talking about them SPECIFICALLY. I know that micro can be hard with Protoss. I was talking about their builds which are all pretty much executed blindly with a mindset of "What can I do next that will REALLY surprise them?!" It's things like always taking a proxy first expansion or opening proxy DTs/voids. Hell, one of them doesn't even use action groups or half of his hotkeys, and yet can still beat people because he does stuff so stupid that you don't expect it. I also have a couple of Protoss friends who play legit and have incredible micro who collide with the top players consistently. Watching them micro gateway units against any army is almost magical. They have impeccable timing, macro, micro, and overall game sense, and it shows when they play. They also incorporate clever strategies, but they don't rely on them to win, or even deal severe blows to their opponent. | ||
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ToastieNL
Netherlands845 Posts
To nerf collosi is by buffing Gateway Units is by nerfing Warpgate. The idea I had was to make a proxy pylon less easy to pull of, so I thought about restirictions, and I found one. What would happen if you could only warp from a certain distance away from the Cybernetics Core? That means, some radius (like the Sensor Towers) gets shown on your map, not the opponents. You can only warp in on Pylons within this radius. This means that to go for some early agression, you need to place a Cybercore reasonably close to the opposing base. This doesn't count for the Warp Prism. Warp Prisms may be allowed to warp in anywhere. What this does, is bringing back the defenders advantage, or at least making a Warpgate attack a real commitment. Instead of 100m for a Pylon, it'll now be 250m and a lot of time invested, seriously delaying the Warpgate rushes, or making them more obvious and scoutable because of 2nd Pylon and Cybercore being proxied. Once the Twilight Council is completed, you can research 'Free Warpgate', something like 50/50/80, which enables free Warp-ins out of Cybercore range. Now, as for Gateway Unit Buffs; - Zealots are hard to take care of, because increasing their attack damage makes them very strong verse Lings. A buff in shields of ±20 might do the trick. - Sentry can get away with +1 or even +2 in their attack, a buff in Health would be unfeasable because they have to be weak to snipes, still. - Stalker should get some extra damage in, either with +1 on it's attack and another +1 vs. Armored, or with something I have been liking really myself: One of the 2 lazers fired by the Stalker becomes piercing, so it does 14 damage to the first target, and 7 to the target after that. The 3rd won't be damaged. - High Templar should get back the amulet, with a certain change to unable Instant Storm. - Dark Templar are completely different, as they are no Army-to-Army units by design. - Archons should get 1/2 Shield armour unupgraded, I think it's just silly something existing of pure shields and only useful for absorbing hits doesn't have armour. I will not go in depth about Collosus changes, but with these changes put in, Collosi can maybe go like -3 attack. What will happen when these changes get put into the game: - Templar Tech becomes more viable as it comes with the ability to freely warp in everywhere. - Warp Prisms see the light of day more often (if you go Robo, you can't research free Warpgates), and maybe this produces a dance of sniping the Warp Prism with Marines when playing with Terran. Lategame with Vikings it won't matter, you'll go TC for +2 upgrades anyways. - Stargate Play might see a slight reduce in prefered use, but on the other hand, a forward Cybercore gives you another upgrade structure which you might as well use? Please let met know your opinion on this. Preferable in PM. Kind regards, Toastie TLDR; Nerf WG; Buff Gate Units; Nerf Collosi -> more Warp Prisms, Templar Tech and less Warpgate Rushes which are more easily scoutable and a bigger commitment Early game. | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
On April 23 2011 14:41 Baarn wrote: What deathball? You're doing it wrong if you let protoss sit and macro up. Not always you can do something. On maps like shakuras or tal darim it's nearly impossible to put any pressure. I've seen many good tosses perfectly defend any drop play and then just crush zerg because he throwed so much units away. But if we are talking about toss who has no idea how to defend such drop of course you can win lol | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On April 23 2011 15:54 RedDragon571 wrote: http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=Z&vsrace=P&season=2011&leaguetype=20&leagueid=0&gamever=0&mapid=0 ^--this Most of the losses came from January, don't think anyone considered PvZ imbalanced back then 0o I mean, if you think Zergs had it bad in January, Protoss only had a 27.3% win ratio PvT over 44games (31 matches) March GSL is 55% in favor of Protoss, which isn't pretty bad considering IMNesTea got knocked into Up/Down, and the only Protoss July played other than MC was anypro (whom he beat). the GSL Teamleague on the other hand favors Zerg with a 54% win/loss. | ||
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Fungal Growth
United States434 Posts
On April 23 2011 09:18 Warrice wrote: What do you do against muta/ling?Not many protoss use other strategies, they are viable. Some are extremely viable Immortal HT is still VERY potent vs zerg. Another reason the colossus is so popular is because you are forced robo for detection anyway. I hate this...we need sentries or ht to be able to cast a 'reveal spell'. | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
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Fungal Growth
United States434 Posts
On April 23 2011 15:17 tdt wrote: Pretty slick...problem is though against pro's as soon as those mind control tenticals go out, those infestors get focus fired so fast it isn't even funny. Would like to see an buff to infestor range to make mind controlling more viable vs units like the colossi.It's 15 seconds ...watch this destruction. Infestors are actually IMBA but no pros use them yet. You'll see... | ||
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