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Blizzard has done it again. I couldn't find a topic on this and wondered if people realized it.
The natural expansions have a different amount of airspace near them leading to issues when trying to defend flying units.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/ul6hB.jpg)
Shown here is the top right position (it works on the bottom left position as well). Even a marine will hit a flying unit at the farthest possible edge of the map.
Now compare this to:
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/gQNrS.jpg)
and
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/rAm1B.jpg)
Where even thors cant hit the flying unit.
This is a pretty serious imbalance imo. I first noticed this while trying to defend muta harass and had never really run into it before. Why does blizzard insist on not fixing these things 
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Mabye because they have better things to do? idk, but good catch
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Wow, that really is huge. I can't believe that hasn't been noticed. Hopefully Blizz will react as quickly as they did with the Shattered Temple blink stalker imbalance with this.
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Why do you think ground units should be able to hit air units in all areas of the map? By this logic I think every single map is imbalanced because of this since all maps have corners where air units/ovies can hide.
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To a map developer maybe it was easy to look over? Just think nobody noticed it till you just did good find i would post it in b.net forums though
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On April 05 2011 09:53 vict1019 wrote:
Why do you think ground units should be able to hit air units in all areas of the map? By this logic I think every single map is imbalanced because of this since all maps have corners where air units/ovies can hide.
read the op...
classic blizzard map making
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I'm pretty sure he's saying it should be uniform
not that all should be hittable.
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On April 05 2011 09:52 Cush wrote:
Mabye because they have better things to do? idk, but good catch
"Maybe they have better things to do?"
Better things than making their own game better?
What is your problem?
On Topic: That imbalance is actually pretty huge, is the bottom left spawn the same as the top right?
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Only Blizzard maps have this kind of imbalances because the refused to put in a mirror tool and they refuse to use the copy/paste mirror method that all the other (GSL, iCCup) mapmakers use.
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What about the bottom left expansion? I'm assuming marines can hit that one because the map is mirrored?
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United States13896 Posts
On April 05 2011 09:53 vict1019 wrote:
Why do you think ground units should be able to hit air units in all areas of the map? By this logic I think every single map is imbalanced because of this since all maps have corners where air units/ovies can hide.
Don't be dense. Its the positional imbalance that's the issue here, not being able to hit air units or not.
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On April 05 2011 09:53 vict1019 wrote:
Why do you think ground units should be able to hit air units in all areas of the map? By this logic I think every single map is imbalanced because of this since all maps have corners where air units/ovies can hide.
I don't think he's trying to say that ground units should be able to hit the air units.
The imbalanced position is clearly the one in the upper right. Air units should be able to dodge in and out at all naturals or at NO naturals. Not 3 and 1.
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Its strange that this difference seems to mirror diagonally
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Hmm, this should be addressed... Very big positional disadvantage here.
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Nice catch. Dunno if Blizzard will rectify this, but it does seem to be a significant imbalance.
I've noticed that Shakuras isn't exactly symmetrical. The entire map is slightly slanted like a parallelogram, and I suspect that this may have been the major cause of the imbalance.
Also, have you checked the airspace for the bottom left expansion? If my theory about "Shakuras = parallelogram" is correct, that expo should also have a smaller airspace, unless there is more map imbalance shenanigans afoot.
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United States7483 Posts
Probably a result of shakuras being designed as a 2v2 map, and being symmetrical along the diagonal.
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On April 05 2011 09:57 eviltomahawk wrote:
Nice catch. Dunno if Blizzard will rectify this, but it does seem to be a significant imbalance.
I've noticed that Shakuras isn't exactly symmetrical. The entire map is slightly slanted like a parallelogram, and I suspect that this may have been the major cause of the imbalance.
Also, have you checked the airspace for the bottom left expansion? If my theory about "Shakuras = parallelogram" is correct, that expo should also have a smaller airspace, unless there is more map imbalance shenanigans afoot.
The OP wrote:
Shown here is the top right position (it works on the bottom left position as well). Even a marine will hit a flying unit at the farthest possible edge of the map.
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Wow that was a huge issue right there, and Thor can shoot that banshee down easily.
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im confused as to how this even happens tbh. it seems like they could just make everything symmetrical couldnt they? i mean they could move the details around but keep the same structural symmetry?
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Edit: Nvm I'm just dumb :D
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Pretty sure this problem still exists with the 12:00 spawn on Metalopolis (where there's a bunch of open space behind the main and nat mineral lines and there isn't on any of the other spawns).
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On April 05 2011 10:04 Wrongspeedy wrote:
Its not an imbalance if the Top Right Natural has the same air space as the Bottom Left Nat (which is the only one you don't have a pic for). Right?
How is it not an imbalance? You dont always spawn at a diagonal at those 2 positions.
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On April 05 2011 10:05 Swissm wrote:
Pretty sure this problem still exists with the 12:00 spawn on Metalopolis (where there's a bunch of open space behind the main and nat mineral lines and there isn't on any of the other spawns).
Good point. Will have to look into that.
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This is worthy of passing along to Blizzard.
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Maybe this is how the map was planned? Maybe Blizzard wants you to think of where you have spawned!! :O!! Especially since 2 of the bases are like this, it is likely meant like that.. try some other tactics if they spawn there obviously.
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Man shakuras plateau has been taken out of the map pool for so many reasons and now maybe again xD
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On April 05 2011 09:59 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 09:57 eviltomahawk wrote:
Nice catch. Dunno if Blizzard will rectify this, but it does seem to be a significant imbalance.
I've noticed that Shakuras isn't exactly symmetrical. The entire map is slightly slanted like a parallelogram, and I suspect that this may have been the major cause of the imbalance.
Also, have you checked the airspace for the bottom left expansion? If my theory about "Shakuras = parallelogram" is correct, that expo should also have a smaller airspace, unless there is more map imbalance shenanigans afoot. Show nested quote +The OP wrote:
Shown here is the top right position (it works on the bottom left position as well). Even a marine will hit a flying unit at the farthest possible edge of the map.
Oh. Ok. I missed that when going through the OP.
Dang, I feel quite foolish right now.
Anyways, Blizzard's decision to make Shakuras a bit slanted is a strange decision. Then again, the map was originally a 2v2 map back in the beta, so it probably wasn't up to the standards of a proper 1v1 map when it was rather haphazardly first introduced into the pool. I don't think any proper community map-maker would make their map with so much imbalance and slant. The map has a decent layout, but these imbalances do seem disturbing.
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On April 05 2011 10:05 Swissm wrote:
Pretty sure this problem still exists with the 12:00 spawn on Metalopolis (where there's a bunch of open space behind the main and nat mineral lines and there isn't on any of the other spawns).
Yup. Hate that position, drop/air play against it is incredibly abusive. Can hit nat + main min lines and you have retreat distance? Crazy.
They should just make Shakuras cross spawn only. Better and solves this issue.
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77 Posts
On April 05 2011 10:04 Wrongspeedy wrote:
Its not an imbalance if the Top Right Natural has the same air space as the Bottom Left Nat (which is the only one you don't have a pic for). Right?
in X situation,if one player can spawn with close distance to edge and other can spawn with far distance, it's imbalanced. (positional imbalance)
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There are about a million of these. This one's pretty big, though.
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Haha, nice catch. Now Blizzard will just remove the map instead of fixing it and give us DQ2.
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I imagine that it would be kind of hard to catch little imbalances like this through the naked eye. They're usually pretty situational, so I don't blame them.
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Whoa, this is really glaring. Good catch. I recommend posting on Blizzard forums, but it won't be fixed for a while.
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If you just enforce always cross-spawns, like the the tournament versions, wouldn't that fix the problem?
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There are plenty of glaring positional imbalances on the blizzard ladder map pool, but only very few have been resolved.
Disappointing, but not surprising.
It kind of reminds me the patch they released where the modified ultralisk splash would kill scvs repairing buildings... how do they miss something like that unless they've done hardly any testing? Obviously missing this Shakuras issue is understandable, but it's still frustrating feeling like it won't be fixed. Seriously, they could hire volunteers for $0/hr to fix the position map imbalances in their ladder maps and would have it done in a single day... I genuinely do not understand how these problems still exist. I'm just frustrated
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i hope this fix this. although they still never fixed scrap stations positional imbalance.
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On April 05 2011 10:30 neSix wrote:There are plenty of glaring positional imbalances on the blizzard ladder map pool, but only very few have been resolved. Disappointing, but not surprising. It kind of reminds me the patch they released where the modified ultralisk splash would kill scvs repairing buildings... how do they miss something like that unless they've done hardly any testing? Obviously missing this Shakuras issue is understandable, but it's still frustrating feeling like it won't be fixed. Seriously, they could hire volunteers for $0/hr to fix the position map imbalances in their ladder maps and would have it done in a single day... I genuinely do not understand how these problems still exist. I'm just frustrated
You forget about the pheonix gravitron beam bug that wasn't fixed for a month.
Hmmm... this could explain why I have a lot better success with banshees sometimes. Nice find
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Good find! Really annoying this exists =/.
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On April 05 2011 10:34 OreoBoi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 10:30 neSix wrote:There are plenty of glaring positional imbalances on the blizzard ladder map pool, but only very few have been resolved. Disappointing, but not surprising. It kind of reminds me the patch they released where the modified ultralisk splash would kill scvs repairing buildings... how do they miss something like that unless they've done hardly any testing? Obviously missing this Shakuras issue is understandable, but it's still frustrating feeling like it won't be fixed. Seriously, they could hire volunteers for $0/hr to fix the position map imbalances in their ladder maps and would have it done in a single day... I genuinely do not understand how these problems still exist. I'm just frustrated You forget about the pheonix gravitron beam bug that wasn't fixed for a month. Hmmm... this could explain why I have a lot better success with banshees sometimes. Nice find
Good call, I forgot about that one as well. In fact, that is even more embarrassing because that is reasonable enough evidence that the change was never tested in a competitive game even a single time before the patch went live. And that's a really depressing thought.
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If it mirrors diagonally and you can only ever spawn cross positions, it will technically be even.
If you can spawn 10 and 2 or 4 and 8, then there's a problem. I'm not sure if the new blizzard shakuras enforces cross positions like the custom ones do.
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On April 05 2011 09:54 neobowman wrote:
Only Blizzard maps have this kind of imbalances because the refused to put in a mirror tool and they refuse to use the copy/paste mirror method that all the other (GSL, iCCup) mapmakers use.
I actually don't think that would help for this map, as Shakuras is fairly rhombus shaped, and it's impossible for the map borders to be anything but a rectangle.
This airspace issue occurs on a bunch of maps. Metalopolis is the same way.
Furthermore, a quick examination of an oddly shaped iCCup map recently used in certain tournaments shows the exact same problem. On Testbug, there is much less airspace behind the natural of the SW (space platform tileset) spawn than the other two.
+ Show Spoiler +
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i think the main concern here is what other maps exhibit such imbalances. i'm curious to see what the TL mavens know and discover.
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Good catch! I don't know why blizz can't just make every map symmetrical. But, I've never tried to make a map, so I can't really speak to how easy or hard it is.
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Oh shit nice find. Make sure to post on Blizzard forums so they can patch it up.
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On April 05 2011 13:40 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 09:54 neobowman wrote:
Only Blizzard maps have this kind of imbalances because the refused to put in a mirror tool and they refuse to use the copy/paste mirror method that all the other (GSL, iCCup) mapmakers use. I actually don't think that would help for this map, as Shakuras is fairly rhombus shaped, and it's impossible for the map borders to be anything but a rectangle. This airspace issue occurs on a bunch of maps. Metalopolis is the same way. Furthermore, a quick examination of an oddly shaped iCCup map recently used in certain tournaments shows the exact same problem. On Testbug, there is much less airspace behind the natural of the SW (space platform tileset) spawn than the other two. + Show Spoiler +
Keep in mind that is a 3player map, its almost impossible to get that symmetry perfect. But that is something to note.
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It should at least be able to get hit by a 10 range thor, good catch. Post this on the bugs thread on blizzard site
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On April 06 2011 01:52 monitor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 13:40 Ketara wrote:On April 05 2011 09:54 neobowman wrote:
Only Blizzard maps have this kind of imbalances because the refused to put in a mirror tool and they refuse to use the copy/paste mirror method that all the other (GSL, iCCup) mapmakers use. I actually don't think that would help for this map, as Shakuras is fairly rhombus shaped, and it's impossible for the map borders to be anything but a rectangle. This airspace issue occurs on a bunch of maps. Metalopolis is the same way. Furthermore, a quick examination of an oddly shaped iCCup map recently used in certain tournaments shows the exact same problem. On Testbug, there is much less airspace behind the natural of the SW (space platform tileset) spawn than the other two. + Show Spoiler + Keep in mind that is a 3player map, its almost impossible to get that symmetry perfect. But that is something to note.
That was kind of my point. This airspace issue is pretty inevitable for any map that isn't roughly rectangle shaped. Neither Shakuras nor Testbug are rectangle shaped, so it doesn't have to do with the symmetry or lack thereof.
It should be minimizable though. Something for map makers to keep in mind.
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Old. Been whining on map imbalance for ages, there's the same problem on alot of maps, even in peoples mains.
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Yeah alot of maps suffer from this, just like you could leave an ovie in the 12 oclock of metalopolis but not in the 6 oclock ...
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this happen a lot, also terran sometime need to place his rex addon on the outsite
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/CgBO5.png)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/1nuTV.png)
