I'm not sure about starcraft, but other video games, CS, Quake, whatever, there is definitely some element of "genetics" at play (in the sense that your current physiological setup limits you, no matter how much training time is spent). In CS anyways, the definition of a twitch shooter, the more instantly and accurately you can twitch your crosshairs to your desired target the better you are at the game, and there is definitely physical limitations, some people just can't react that quickly or accurately.
I used to do KZ jumping, and I worked my ASS off practicing that, I may have been able to get into the top100 in the world if I trained significantly harder than some of the other top players, but I ran into some very real limitations of what I could do with my rhythmic timing ability and hand speed.
It's hard to say, if I had started training as a young kid maybe my brain would have been more malleable to learning those types of skills, but I really don't know.
Starcraft 2 is a little different though... Those types of accuracy and handspeed advantages are useful to an SC2 player, but it's hard to say that you will win every game if you have that skill or lose every game if you do not. Game sense and strategy is equally important and it's hard to say weather that is as limiting or how trainable that is.
Slayer Boxer played the game a little after it came out. He didn't even understand computers even after becoming a progamer and before he was a progamer there were already pros and boxer said he couldn't understand how someone could be so good. He was gaming hardcore at 21 which is pretty late to start programing in today's standards. Late 1998 he became a progamer lol.
Its a combination of both. The reason why hard work might come ahead of regular sports is because you can put more time into SC2. You can only work out and train as far as your body can take you which isn't much more than 4 hours of training a day. For SC2 and other video games the stress is more mental which means you can train a lot harder. Most pros train over 8 hours a day up to 14 hours. thats 2-4x higher than the maximum of a regular athlete. Of course talent comes into place. Look at Jaedong and Flash. They are gods at SC1 and practice as much as other players but are just in a different level of play. This is talent. So SC gives you more time to practice which makes it easier for hard work to take you higher than talent but you definitely need talent to go places.
If you're good at learning (is that a talent?) you'll improve faster and generally be better than everyone else. It doesn't matter what sport or game or competition. There have been players in the NBA who didn't run faster or jump higher than everyone else.
On March 22 2011 05:06 JL_GG wrote: u need natural talent for sure since one episode of National Geographic about starcraft 1 let scientists conduct research which discovers the brainwave of progamers are similar to pro poker players and different than normal people that's y so many progamers are good at poker (eg. PJ, former best player in china is now pro poker player) here is the link and watch from around 13:00 in which they will test the brainwave of progamers
By doing these activities, playing poker, playing SC, you build new neurological pathways in your brain. That is why the brains of progamers/poker players are different from ordinary people. If you measured their brains at age 10 they would be the exact same (or within normal deviation).
Reaction time, handspeed, mouse control are similarly trained.
I have yet to see any actual proof of natural talent for video games. As someone else said many people don't realize how much "practice" they actually do without ever playing starcraft 2. Decision making, decisiveness, and on the spot analysis are life skills you do every single day. Every time you move a mouse you are practicing mouse control...probably not in a very effective manner but nonetheless still practicing it. The mom example described earlier used is a great one to illustrate this.
It's definitely a combination of both and at the very highest level (Flash, Jaedong), you'll need to be born with extraordinary multitasking/reflexes, etc. A lot of the BW progaming houses have similar training regiments for each player (~8-10 hrs a day), yet some of the players go on to win Starleagues while others are stuck as a practice partner/B-teamer for their whole career, never really improving in skill even after years of training.
It's both. Ultimately you can only learn things like motor skills (fine mouse movement) and reaction time (mini-map spotting and responding) so well.
I believe that anyone can become a masters league player with the right amount of work, but I don't believe that everyone can become a pro just by playing the game a lot. We (U.S.) live in a culture that likes to promote the idea of equality, but being legally equal is different than being truly equal. Some people are better at certain things than others and that's just how it is.
On March 22 2011 00:47 IdrA wrote: you have to be able to think about the game in a certain way for practice to be productive.
otherwise you'll keep doing sentry zealot pushes no matter how many times your opponent builds roaches.
What the hell kind of an answer is that?!?! Judging from the title I expected your response to be " Neighter, all you need is a lucky coin and to play protoss"
Ever since the news of patch 1.3 came out it feels like your less depressed about SC2. Prob cause you're so exited about maybe having some sort of balance for a while.
I'm not sure I like it, Lol
He's insulting HuK, whether he's depressed or not someone's still getting pooped on.
On March 22 2011 05:06 JL_GG wrote: u need natural talent for sure since one episode of National Geographic about starcraft 1 let scientists conduct research which discovers the brainwave of progamers are similar to pro poker players and different than normal people that's y so many progamers are good at poker (eg. PJ, former best player in china is now pro poker player) here is the link and watch from around 13:00 in which they will test the brainwave of progamers
I'd prefer it if you didn't quote Natural Geographic as a source. They have a reputation for falsifying information or misleading readers to make their money.
That being said, the brainwave functions you see on pro gamers (or pro poker players) are the result of training. If you train hard enough at something, you get better at it. Getting better at it is reflected in your brain activity patterns. Contrary to popular belief, it is not the other way around, where most people think that you must have those activity patterns first in order to be good. It is the same with natural ability (excluding physical characteristics for professional sports).
There have been studies done that show conclusively that the more a person puts time into something, the better they become at it. The study I'm referring to had several children whose parents wanted them to get into music. Starting at only one hour every two days, they would practice. Those who enjoyed it would continue practicing, those who did not enjoy would practice less. This study was conducted for years into adolescence and adulthood where the researchers found that the amount of time put in was reflected in their musical skill. They also found that there was no "prodigy" factor. There were no people who had to put in significantly less time to reach the same level of proficiency.
Seriously, just work hard. Amount of practice and quality of practice are the reasons the Koreans were miles ahead in SC:BW, not some special genes.
Like anything worth getting good at, SC2 does require trained skill to get to a pro level, but certainly someone could start off with an advantage of speed, observation skills, or basic strategy that other players might not have.
High level hand speed, or enough hand speed to play with pros can come with a lot of practice. The understanding and knowledge/wisdom of the game can come with studying and watching replays and discussing the game with others. The execution and validation of the understanding of the game takes a TON of practice.
Perhaps where 'natural talent' comes into play is how strong of a competitor you are. For example: many people when they get to a far enough level and they are playing a match that is viewed by a lot of people they crumbled.
Some people are natural born competitors - Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Phil Ivey, Muhammad Ali.
On the biggest stage, in the toughest moments they are not trying to "lose closely" or "try their best". In their minds they are NOT trying to avoid losing. They are trying to win. There is a subtle nuance here that is real and apparent. They are not trying to put up a good fight versus a worthy opponent. They are trying to crush their opponent and destroy them. Seizing victory. This type of mentality is arguable something that you can't adopt.
I know someone who never played BW, and placed straight into Platinum upon release, after watching streams and tourney vods. It's like those jerks who never show up to class and still get straight A's - sure you can get the same results with work, but it's way easier for them. The tip top of the pro level is, of course, the people who have both the natural talent and the drive to work.
All training/practice. Nobody is "born" good at a video game. Think too often people on TL see no difference whatsoever between sports and a video game. Lets be realistic here.
Isn't this basically the essence of the Neji vs. Rock Lee argument from Naruto?
Unlike other sports that require a certain body type (i.e.: if you're 5'2", you're not going to be a NFL wide receiver), I think SC2 can be done via training. If you're talented, your learning curve and rise will be much faster - whereas if you're not as talented, you can train hard and achieve the same level with harder work. The talented + practice nonstop people eventually become the best (i.e.: Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Wes Welker, contra Chad Ochocinco, JaMarcus Russell).
Some people might be better at 'learning' per se. They might pick things up faster, but as long as you have functional and willing brain, anyone can learn starcraft at the higher levels.
On March 22 2011 05:06 JL_GG wrote: u need natural talent for sure since one episode of National Geographic about starcraft 1 let scientists conduct research which discovers the brainwave of progamers are similar to pro poker players and different than normal people that's y so many progamers are good at poker (eg. PJ, former best player in china is now pro poker player) here is the link and watch from around 13:00 in which they will test the brainwave of progamers http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc0Pgm8lWRw
I'd prefer it if you didn't quote Natural Geographic as a source. They have a reputation for falsifying information or misleading readers to make their money.
A TLer made that documentary iirc The only false information is what my friend pointed out: 6fact allin leading to Xellos's economic advantage which contradicts itself lol
On March 22 2011 05:06 JL_GG wrote: u need natural talent for sure since one episode of National Geographic about starcraft 1 let scientists conduct research which discovers the brainwave of progamers are similar to pro poker players and different than normal people that's y so many progamers are good at poker (eg. PJ, former best player in china is now pro poker player) here is the link and watch from around 13:00 in which they will test the brainwave of progamers
By doing these activities, playing poker, playing SC, you build new neurological pathways in your brain. That is why the brains of progamers/poker players are different from ordinary people. If you measured their brains at age 10 they would be the exact same (or within normal deviation).
Reaction time, handspeed, mouse control are similarly trained.
I have yet to see any actual proof of natural talent for video games. As someone else said many people don't realize how much "practice" they actually do without ever playing starcraft 2. Decision making, decisiveness, and on the spot analysis are life skills you do every single day. Every time you move a mouse you are practicing mouse control...probably not in a very effective manner but nonetheless still practicing it. The mom example described earlier used is a great one to illustrate this.
Yes and this is why plenty of people can pick up the game and become good very fast. It's less likely that it's due to genetics and more likely that it's due to past experience.
At the highest levels of anything however, talent is what distinguishes people. I don't care how much most people study math or physics, the likelyhood that a random person becomes a Feynman or von Neumman is zero. Similarly there are individuals whose genetic makeup makes them incredibly good at swimming (Hello Phelps!). Like it or not, the likelyhood that you or I become Lee Young Ho or Lee Jaedong is likely zero as well. Genius is not achieved through genetics or hardwork alone but a combination of the two.
That said it's doubtful that this explains why there are bronze players with 500+ games played and masters with less than 100. The majority of this variation definitely has to do with past applicable experience.
Common sense says its a mixture of innate ability and practice. How much contribution innate ability makes versus practice is hard to say but its almost certainly a result of both.
I'm sure everyone remembers being in school when there were certain subjects that come easy to you (and hard for others) where you can put much less effort in and excel and others that require much more work and you may not do all that well.
The same in pretty much all aspects of life from my experience. Innate ability is an advantage but hard work pays off too. What you get when you combine the two is a person who's at the top of whatever it is they do.
On March 22 2011 05:06 JL_GG wrote: u need natural talent for sure since one episode of National Geographic about starcraft 1 let scientists conduct research which discovers the brainwave of progamers are similar to pro poker players and different than normal people that's y so many progamers are good at poker (eg. PJ, former best player in china is now pro poker player) here is the link and watch from around 13:00 in which they will test the brainwave of progamers
By doing these activities, playing poker, playing SC, you build new neurological pathways in your brain. That is why the brains of progamers/poker players are different from ordinary people. If you measured their brains at age 10 they would be the exact same (or within normal deviation).
Reaction time, handspeed, mouse control are similarly trained.
I have yet to see any actual proof of natural talent for video games. As someone else said many people don't realize how much "practice" they actually do without ever playing starcraft 2. Decision making, decisiveness, and on the spot analysis are life skills you do every single day. Every time you move a mouse you are practicing mouse control...probably not in a very effective manner but nonetheless still practicing it. The mom example described earlier used is a great one to illustrate this.
Yes and this is why plenty of people can pick up the game and become good very fast. It's less likely that it's due to genetics and more likely that it's due to past experience.
At the highest levels of anything however, talent is what distinguishes people. I don't care how much most people study math or physics, the likelyhood that a random person becomes a Feynman or von Neumman is zero. Similarly there are individuals whose genetic makeup makes them incredibly good at swimming (Hello Phelps!). Like it or not, the likelyhood that you or I become Lee Young Ho or Lee Jaedong is likely zero as well. Genius is not achieved through genetics or hardwork alone but a combination of the two.
That said it's doubtful that this explains why there are bronze players with 500+ games played and masters with less than 100. The majority of this variation definitely has to do with past applicable experience.
Exactly my thoughts at the highest level of anything with enough people involved talent has to be the distinguisher. Yes reactions, hand speed, and control can all be trained but everyones cap on them isn't the exact same, some people are going to be more accurate than others. When everyone is playing 10-12 hours a day nobody should just dominate the scene, but Flash/Jeadong did that. Something separated them from the others, and it wasn't training. They were abe to go beyond the abilities of their peers. As far as the reason some people in bronze have 500+ games and still are not improving I think that has more to do with their general approach of the game. They aren't taking it as seriously and thats totally fine.
EPT
