EPTPart of the reason why players like Jaedong is so good is because they can train more and harder than anyone else.
Is SC skill natural or trained? - Page 11
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Nayl
Canada413 Posts
Part of the reason why players like Jaedong is so good is because they can train more and harder than anyone else. | ||
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Sablar
Sweden880 Posts
But.. On March 22 2011 05:23 Leviwtf wrote: I have yet to see any actual proof of natural talent for video games. As someone else said many people don't realize how much "practice" they actually do without ever playing starcraft 2. Decision making, decisiveness, and on the spot analysis are life skills you do every single day. Every time you move a mouse you are practicing mouse control...probably not in a very effective manner but nonetheless still practicing it. The mom example described earlier used is a great one to illustrate this. Unless you think people are exactly the same, and have exactly the same potential for being good at things from birth, then why is it not possible for someone to have a natural talent for SC2? I don't see what kind of proof you aren't finding. Yes, people start playing SC2 with a number of skills already in learned, which gives a different potential for becoming good at it fast. But did those skills develop only from the environment? No.. it all had to start somewhere and in the end our genes will give us different abilities not only in height and physical things, but also in problem solving and information processing. Even things like perseverence would be modified by genes in the end. The environment has a large impact on it but there are just skills that cannot be improved upon past a certain point. Taking a rather negative example, do you think a person with an IQ of 60 could become a GSL champion? Why not? It's a clinical condition, yes, but with enough practise why would that little setback be an issue? Being a programer isn't normal at all, it's out there in the extreme of the population. It's hard to say what skills are required, but even things like effective practise, learning from mistakes, decision making and on the spot analysis would be learned based both on experience and genes. Pretty much anyone can become good at something but when you take it to the extreme levels then it's more noticable than ever that people aren't the same. If I had a kid, I wouldn't say it like this. You can always view it from the positive side and talk about the potential for improvement that everybody has. And I think that potential is quite large. But in a place like this it just seems like denial to state that we are all the same and that anyone can do anything they set their mind to. Even if someone sucked, trained hard, and became pro, I still think there was a natural ability behind it. It's more likely because of the normal story which is training hard, but never becoming the best anyway. | ||
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Lysenko
Iceland2128 Posts
On March 22 2011 06:01 feanor1 wrote: As far as the reason some people in bronze have 500+ games and still are not improving I think that has more to do with their general approach of the game. They aren't taking it as seriously and thats totally fine. Players in Bronze, from what I've seen in ladder games against them, are improving rapidly, but since they're mostly improving together and not moving ahead of the pack, they remain in Bronze. Edit: I just picked out a random ZvT replay from last November, when I was high silver, and a random ZvT replay from March 18th, also high silver, just to compare. Both Terrans were using nearly identical builds, but the one from March 18th had a three times larger army at the 10 minute mark. | ||
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PeaNuT_T
Sweden326 Posts
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Disciple7
United States198 Posts
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IamaGrapeMan
Canada165 Posts
On March 21 2011 22:35 JeLLe04 wrote: I absolutely, absolutely, absolutely agree with your point about IdrA, and I've been saying it for ages. It is evident in his play that his success is a result of hours upon hours of practice - that's why his timings, macro, and micro are often nigh-impeccable, while his "Achille's heel" tends to often be his decision making. that doesn't really make sense, and doesn't even follow from you quoted. his decision making is on par with his mechanics; since mechanics and decision making are very closely related. | ||
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Oreo7
United States1647 Posts
But yeah, you need a basic level of intelligence. | ||
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DaCruise
Denmark2457 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10292 Posts
Jk. There is no such thing as talent (definitions vary). Some people are better suited to do different things, whether it be the way their brain works, their body composition, their body shape, their attitude, their willpower, etc. Everyone can do anything (reasonably, or at least we haven't found a way yet to overcome obstacles like punching someone without arms), but some people will have advantages over others. In the end, it comes out with passion and dedication. Do what you love in life, stick with it! If you are hesitant to come out of your bubble to overcome the obstacles, you probably don't have a strong enough passion or determination for it, or you are screwing yourself over and you need to find a way to motivate yourself! | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
There is a bit of natural talent responsible for dexterity of the hands and intelligence but it can all be trained imo. Like Einstein said, success is 90% transpiration and only 10% inspiration. You might have some natural ability to be good but if you don't train or develop it it will mean nothing, it is like this with anything in life really. Training is not only the time directly invested in starcraft 2 though alot of other things, like having good analytical abilities or good mouse and keyboard control and learned alot in other ways. This can cause some people to be very far behind compared to others before they have even started the game and will make it practically impossible for them to reach high levels. If you start playing tennis at the age of 18 it is just impossible to become a pro anymore even though it is 99% training. High level starcraft 2 is pure about mechanics anyway. Many of the GSL quality players completely prepare their matches beforehand knowing exactly what they want to do with some variations depending on what their opponent does. They don't even need to think of this themselves and can have a coach tell them. Koreans are probably so good because of their dedication to the game. Gaming is a much bigger part of their culture and unlike other countries it is quite mainstream and way more socially acceptable. In the Netherlands you are a nerd if you say you need to train in a game, even if you are Grubby or Ret, whereas in Korea the pro's are heroes. | ||
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
On March 21 2011 22:37 hoby2000 wrote: If you believe that people are just "natural" at some things, then you probably believe in a deity. Why do I say this? Because if you believe in "natural" talent, you don't understand the world around you. These players like Jaedong, or Flash, or anyone else who is really good at SC or SC2, are only good because of the amount of practice, and their method of practicing. They have been doing this for a very long time, and what people perceive as "natural" talent, is just an accumulation of their experiences poured into the game. For example, if someone grows up working hard at everything they do, then they discover SC2, and decide to devote their time and energy to it, chances are that they will probably pick up the game pretty quickly, and be able to start beating people who are gold leaguers pretty quickly. This isn't because of a natural ability though, it's just because they understand the method they need to practice to make them understand the game better. Musicians are the same way - I have a friend who has been playing piano since he was 4 or 5 years old. He's a wizard at piano now, and is a master of music in general. When he plays video games, he knows what he needs to do to already, to become good at said video game. He already has 15+ years of experience playing, practicing, and performing in the music arts - Playing, practicing and performing in video games won't really be a stretch. However, this ability to play, practice and perform isn't all that you need - You also need determination. This is critical, because if you can get good at something, but don't really put forth enough time or effort, all your practice is pretty much wasted. You have to be determined to be good. Determined play, practice, and performance - That's what makes someone good. I'm a natural at martial arts, and sports in general. I've got an easy way of knowing this: I progress faster than most people and have more feeling for it than most people. I know people with exactly the same amount of determination as I have, and who've worked more than me, but still I'm outgrowing them, despite them training for a longer period already. I know I'm a natural at learning languages. I absorb them like a spunge without even trying. I know people who would have to work insanely hard to get where I got myself because of natural talent. I suck insanely hard at math. No matter how hard I try, how interesting I actually find the matter, I will never be as good as someone who's got a knack for it. | ||
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Pro]ChoSen-
United States318 Posts
There are people who play 5000 games and are still in Bronze, there are people who play 50 games and are in Master League. Its definitely not just about how hard you work, a lot of it is natural talent. | ||
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niilzon
Belgium105 Posts
Some of it has to do with your brain, but for the vast majority of persons, the brain factor is relatively the same (not many Einstein's around  ) and will be ignored for the rest of my explanation.However, why can one not understand extreme mathematics or art, and does not want to learn it? Well, it is mostly because given his past experiences, it would be much more difficult to master and appreciate it for that person than for some other persons. Because that person was rarely interacting with that kind of intellectual material, especially during it's "early" development stages (until 10 to 16+ years old for the highest influences, but the younger you are, the harder your experiences might define you). The older you are, the lesser are the *chances* that you change, and the changes are *usually* smaller once you get older. If you rarely do mathematics, you will probably not be good at it and you will probably not like it either. The same goes for art if you are not usually in contact with it, and especially without the required explanations (just like mathematics or any other similar example). However, you will enjoy it and be good at it in the opposite case. The same goes for the experiences that involve gaming-similar experiences that are not actual gaming (this is a wide range of experiences) and, thus, define what you call the "natural skill" for gaming. Now.. Many things that happened to you during your youth defined your "natural skill" for sc2 or general gaming. Those things were not explicitely video-gaming or sc2-oriented, but for example playing lots of chess (or stratego ) are great examples that would prepare you for a sc2-skillfull future. The interactions that you had with the world during your youth, as well as the rest of your life (but I insist on the youth part), forged and keep on forging a great part of your personnality and main skills. Now, to answer this part : What do you guys think? If you're high Diamond or Masters, do you think you've worked enough to deserve it, or do you think you were just "born that way"? (I'm an "old" player, about 3000+ Masters, approx 3200. I don't practice alot) I know that the fact that I played alot of chess, stratego, abalone, pente and such strategical mind-games when I was young is what made me especially like rts-games later on (starting with dune, command and conquer etc). Then the experience, combined with alot of "training" (play and similar non-gaming experiences that develop the same general skills), is what made me reach diamond during the beta after a few games : you get it in your blood, since all the rts-games are, from a low to a very high level, similar, and the real world experiences can influence alot as well, since they are similar to some extent as well. If I never had played any rts-game (but keep everything else : chess, stratego etc), I'm pretty sure that I would easily beat someone who never would have played any rts-game either but had a singing-oriented youth (well this is a rather drastic example but it gets to the point).However, if I had never played chess, stratego etc, and if that same singing-oriented person had never sung but had played stratego and chess during its youth.. I'm pretty sure that that person would beat me if we both played our first rts-game against each other. To sum it up, I think that the brain has some to do with it, but for the majority of people, it's the earlier experiences. Note that it is totally certain that experiences can develop brains more than others : if you stare at a blank wall during all the free time that you have from 3 to 10 years old, you will become "dumb", that does not make a stretch : the brain is a muscle and a muscle needs training. But the brain is a particular muscle : it also needs context. I hope that this clarified your vision on the matter  It helped me understand some things while writing this down, as I never though about it a little seriously before. Good night. | ||
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ooni
Australia1498 Posts
should add to OP | ||
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bearhug
United States999 Posts
Don't want to discourage people, but we have to accept the truth: people are not born "equal". | ||
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trias_e
United States520 Posts
Finally, there's no reason based on the theory of evolution to expect people to have precisely the same capabilities when it comes to hand-speed/accuracy, or even decision-making speed/accuracy. It might be a comforting thing to believe in, but a blank-slate theory when it comes to human talents and abilities is not justified. | ||
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bearhug
United States999 Posts
On March 22 2011 08:03 ooni wrote: Straight forward answer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc0Pgm8lWRw&feature=player_embedded#at=790 should add to OP Thanks. This is very interesting, which once again proves that genes play a big part. | ||
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MaKfejA
Canada117 Posts
On March 22 2011 08:03 ooni wrote: Straight forward answer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc0Pgm8lWRw&feature=player_embedded#at=790 should add to OP This is the second time this has been posted, and it actually shows nothing causal about the relationship between the brain function and ability to play games. Do not misunderstand the findings here. All it tells you is that the brain of a progamer works differently while playing games than does a casual gamer. The progamer has played much, much more than the casual gamer and as a result of that, the parts of his brain that activate are different than the parts of the brain that would activate in a normal person. Using music as an analogy, I guarantee when you're playing an instrument for the first time, you will not have the instincts of a virtuoso. However, as you play more, you learn your habits and instincts. In a subsequent fMRI, you would see that the parts of the brain associated with instinct would activate, whereas at the beginning of your musical career you would see visual and audio parts activating. The same thing can be said for StarCraft gamers. | ||
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MuffinFTW
United States235 Posts
But I think mostly practice is how you get better, nobody can just magically be good without experience or playing/practicing. | ||
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