EPT[Spoilers] Is SC2 too volatile ? - Page 19
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
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Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
On March 17 2011 20:07 Dalavita wrote: The point he's trying to make is that if macro becomes easier, the good players will find other ways to do impressive play. If not, they were really just good at playing an outdated system, which is still important in the game that has the outdated system, but they have to switch their focus elsewhere when the game changes. I'd rather Wow at someone keeping their economy down at 190/200 supply and 5base, rather than them being able to spam units out of factories one by one, which is hard, but not intelligent or cool looking in any way. The APM spent on individually building from 5 factories can be spent on manually or preemptively splitting your groups to get a better concave or be fast enough and drag injured units to the back of the line so they stop getting focus fired etc. Also, you BW newfags should be playing Dune, now THAT GAME REQUIRED SKILLS EL OH EL etc... Sorry, you simply can't make an argument for harder mechanics for the sake of it. If you want to make the game require more skill, make it require more skill in a way that doesn't hinder players control of the game. N1 calling us BW newfags , thats going to help with the discussion. You say that you can spend the APM you would use on those factories on other things, guess what, SC2 has nothing in which it can dump the ''excess'' APM. People did that concave and drag injured units to the back while doing hard macro mechanics, which makes them more skilled and more exciting to watch because you know that while he is doing that he is also macroing. It adds to the spectatorship indirectly, not directly. | ||
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kubiks
France1328 Posts
On March 17 2011 20:48 shinarit wrote: Hmm, i cant help but remember playing SupCom (or TA), where you could queue up units without losing effective resources (because they only const if they are built), and that units would act in a more or less sensible way by themselves. Much less clicks on simple tasks, much more on the concrete goals you wanted to achieve. I think thats what a good rts should look like. I was going to post about this. In supcom, you don't have to worry about queueing units (you can even queue infinity many units ), your units attack while moving, but even in -10 time (in starcraft it would be very very slow), you're just insanely busy. I don't really know about the high level supcom scene (except TLO played in it), but I think it wasn't really about throwing a coin to decide who wins... | ||
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IamBach
United States1059 Posts
Wait heres more. The Basket is now the size of a table! This way everyone can make three point shots because three pointers are the bomb! Awesome! | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On March 17 2011 22:03 Kipsate wrote:N1 calling us BW newfags , thats going to help with the discussion. You say that you can spend the APM you would use on those factories on other things, guess what, SC2 has nothing in which it can dump the ''excess'' APM. People did that concave and drag injured units to the back while doing hard macro mechanics, which makes them more skilled and more exciting to watch because you know that while he is doing that he is also macroing. It adds to the spectatorship indirectly, not directly. And now people will have even more time to do those concave things (which they don't do nearly enough in SC2 as it is), on top of whatever else they can imagine. Also, there's a reason why I did the BW newfag thing. Think hard about it and the argument that this thread is about. Hint: It's in the "THAT GAME REQUIRED SKILLS EL OH EL etc..." part. On March 17 2011 22:07 etheovermind wrote: Here why don't we make basketball 2 where everyone can dunk? That sounds like a good idea. Dunking is awesome so now everyone can do it! Wait heres more. The Basket is now the size of a table! This way everyone can make three point shots because three pointers are the bomb! Awesome! And yet people still fail at it. Awesome! | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On March 17 2011 22:03 Kipsate wrote: N1 calling us BW newfags , thats going to help with the discussion. You say that you can spend the APM you would use on those factories on other things, guess what, SC2 has nothing in which it can dump the ''excess'' APM. People did that concave and drag injured units to the back while doing hard macro mechanics, which makes them more skilled and more exciting to watch because you know that while he is doing that he is also macroing. It adds to the spectatorship indirectly, not directly. People can't spend all their APM in SC2 though; there's no excess. The tip top players still miss plenty of optimal timings when it comes to mule drops, larva injects/creep spread, and especially chrono boost lategame and those are the direct "macro mechanics!" | ||
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xsevR
United States324 Posts
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Maynarde
Australia1286 Posts
On March 17 2011 22:22 xsevR wrote: So tired of the less mechanics=less skill argument. I've yet to see anyone play a near perfect game of SC2 (like anywhere close), who cares if the skill floor is lower? Why does this affect the highest levels of play? All these arguments amount to is elitism. And why does it matter where the skill floor is now? It's going to rise exponentially. NO ONE has figured this game out yet. | ||
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Foxcraft
Finland32 Posts
On March 17 2011 20:48 shinarit wrote: Hmm, i cant help but remember playing SupCom (or TA), where you could queue up units without losing effective resources (because they only const if they are built), and that units would act in a more or less sensible way by themselves. Much less clicks on simple tasks, much more on the concrete goals you wanted to achieve. I think thats what a good rts should look like. This would be great. If queing did not cost anything until the unit would start to be produced then it would make macroing more easy and thus giving more time to develop strategic side of the game. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
Literally NOBODY said MBS or automine shouldn't be in the game. So why do idiots keep repeating that 'OMG I CAN'T BELIEVE PEOPLE WOULDN'T WANT IT'? The point is making some new skills that need to be used. I don't understand whats hard to understand about that yet people keep jumping to the defence of SC2 where it's not even needed. On March 17 2011 16:54 Zanez.smarty wrote: This is true to a good degree, the tedious bullshit in SC1 was annoying. Watching SC1 was amazing to me, because I had no idea those people played so well and performed so much of that bullshit that I cannot stand. If I were to watch SC1 with someone who has never played it before: Me: OMG look at Bisu's amazing micro against those Spider Mines! Perfect targetting, using Zealots to take the hits, excellent moves and spread. Them: Uh huh. Pretty cool... Me: Trust me, man, it is REALLY hard. That's why those korean announcers are going nuts! Them: Oh I believe you, that is pretty fantastic... Me: W.e man, you just don't get it. Them: Yep, I don't. This doesn't make sense. If you can't understand whats going on in the video then why would they be watching Starcraft 1 or 2 at all? How is a ball vs ball battle more entertaining or understandable. Not to mention the UI is nothing to do with any of what you are saying. Targetting spider mines and using zealot to take hits is not tedious bullshit its the actual skill of the game, unless you're completely for removing all unit micro from SC2 as well. Besides that, theres tons of casual fans in BW in the crowd who don't play the game and understand whats going on. | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On March 17 2011 22:40 infinity2k9 wrote: You can't have a reasonable discussion on this without a bunch of people coming into the thread and making zero analysis at all, simply saying 'It will get better' and other dumb shit thats been said 1000 times. If you can't handle a game you like being criticized don't go into a thread with discussion about it. There's clearly room for more mechanics in the game, no doubt about it. That's why they even added the macro mechanics in the first place simply to add something else to do. No doubt, what people are saying is that dumbing down the interface isn't the way to go about it. I'm all for having an interface that works well and units that are 3 times more effective if you can micro them well, rather than being forced to build buildings one by one for some arbitrary reason. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On March 17 2011 22:42 Dalavita wrote: No doubt, what people are saying is that dumbing down the interface isn't the way to go about it. I'm all for having an interface that works well and units that are 3 times more effective if you can micro them well, rather than being forced to build buildings one by one for some arbitrary reason. Nobody said to dumb down the interface. Edit: Just to clarify, people said the interface raised the skill cap on BW. That's a fact. Now it's gone the skill cap is lower. Again, that's a fact. But the suggestion is there should be something new to replace it, not change it to BW style. When they've gone in the direction to make even the unit micro simpler, in a lot of peoples opinion that is too far and a problem for the long term interest to spectators. A lot of people are saying 'Well SC2 isn't played perfectly yet, people miss spawn larvae and miss macro sometimes!'. This is a terrible argument because those things are precisely what the exact same people are saying is boring in BW. Even if someone did play with all those things perfect, why would that be interesting to spectate? People are defeating their own arguments with statements like that. | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
There's been several people saying that MBS/Smartcasting are bad and should be removed.... Does that not count as dumbing down the interface? | ||
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Iamyournoob
Germany595 Posts
On March 17 2011 10:57 BaBaUTZ wrote: Before SC2 was released Blizzard often times promised, that they would intercept the falling skill ceiling with new great Micro moves. I liked the idea behind this approach a lot, because having units that are only great if you handle them correctly is a fun way to play in my opinion. On the other side, i wouldnt enjoy SC2 with crappy SCBW UI, AI, etc. . Though now, after SC2 is released, i am a bit disappointed. I like the easier unit and macro management. But where are the great new Micro moves, Blizzard promised us? Why do we get Hydras, Ultras, Thors, Immortals, Colossi, Marauders or Banshees? Now i dont mind a few "simple to handle" units for the noobs, or units that are "only" good without micro, but great when u micro them. But the truth is, there arent actually a lot of skill-rewarding units. Those would help to raise the skill ceiling and would make the game less volatile (i.e. defend unscouted cheese with superior micro and some power units), the game would still be as newbie friendly as it is now and the game would be more exciting to watch. Great post, which perfectly describes my opinion on the "mechanics vs. strategy" thing. Not to have smart casting and auto mining is retarded. It is a good thing that you need to have less apm to macro. In Warcraft 3 50 apm were way enough to "macro", however in battles the apm got up to way over 200 for good players because there were so many units that had active abilities to use, because you had up to 3 heroes to individually control, you had times you could use and it was even rewarding to micro a single unit out of battle to save it, heal it up and deny xp for your enemy. Starcraft 2 requires more macro skill than WC3 but a lot less than SC1. But I don't have the feeling that superior unit control makes up for the less demanding macro in SC2 compared to SC1. But game volatility imho just stems from unit design and not because SC2's mechanics are too easy. I mean if 4 hellions can totally screw you over, it would still be the same without auto mining. | ||
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The KY
United Kingdom6252 Posts
On March 17 2011 22:07 etheovermind wrote: Here why don't we make basketball 2 where everyone can dunk? That sounds like a good idea. Dunking is awesome so now everyone can do it! Wait heres more. The Basket is now the size of a table! This way everyone can make three point shots because three pointers are the bomb! Awesome! The huge hole in that analogy is that most of the things that were difficult in BW that are now easier in SC2 were only hard due to technological constraints. Keeping them would be pretty arbitrary. It's like if for years basketball players had played with huge weights on their arms, and suddenly it was decided they would be removed. 'But now anyone can dribble the ball, it's no longer impressive. Bring back the huge weights!' | ||
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LostDevil
Fiji283 Posts
Whatever happened to people wanting a challenge and things to figure out and improve upon? Everyone teamliquid lately just cries imbalance and that refuses to accept that the mechanics in sc2 are easy enough for the average 5th grader to figure out without much trouble. The only other plausible option I can think of is to add a ridiculous amount of different units per race so that is so hard for each player to decide what to use in every situation. The only problem here is it is impossible to balance without a team of 20 balance professionals working non stop for months. | ||
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IamBach
United States1059 Posts
On March 17 2011 22:55 The KY wrote: The huge hole in that analogy is that most of the things that were difficult in BW that are now easier in SC2 were only hard due to technological constraints. Keeping them would be pretty arbitrary. It's like if for years basketball players had played with huge weights on their arms, and suddenly it was decided they would be removed. 'But now anyone can dribble the ball, it's no longer impressive. Bring back the huge weights!' Yes i agree there were things that were basically weights in BW but things like awesome spells and amazing unit control (mutas/vultures/reavers)were awesome to watch. They basically made it so anyone could do those things. | ||
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samuraibael
Australia294 Posts
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Iamyournoob
Germany595 Posts
On March 17 2011 22:58 etheovermind wrote: Yes i agree there were things that were basically weights in BW but things like awesome spells and amazing unit control (mutas/vultures/reavers)were awesome to watch. They basically made it so anyone could do those things. Nobody is denying this. Colossi are retarded, so are marauders, banshees, I don't know, maybe hellions. They are all a-click units as it seems with nothing special. I would never say "no" if I had to micro hellions like vultures and Colossi like reaver - hell that would be great! But there is no point in removing stuff like auto-mining or smartcasting - like some indeed said. | ||
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Ugluk
Sweden7 Posts
On March 17 2011 21:28 karpo wrote: Man i've sent a hour trying to find a awesome video about the mechanics argument. It's two cgi character discussing Warcraft II vs Starcraft. Voices are MS Sam-ish and they talk about SC being nooby cause it has control groups, unit queuing and no water units. Here it is: | ||
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