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On March 09 2011 03:06 Ownos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 02:32 whatthefat wrote:On March 08 2011 09:07 Ownos wrote:
It's the critical mass effect.
And is everyone neglecting that lings are far more faster than their SC1 versions? That in itself lends them to be more like harassment units. That a T or P has to wall off nice and tight to be safe from them.
I know I built a ton of chargelots vs a giant roach/hydra ball. They just evaporate and are a waste of resources. Zealots are better in smaller engagements. That's not true. All units have become quicker, but the relative speeds are almost identical. Normalized speeds (dividing by base zergling speed), with upgraded speeds in brackets: BW:Zergling - 1 (1.57) Zealot - 0.79 (1.14) Marine - 0.79 (1.21) SC2:Zergling - 1 (1.59) Zealot - 0.76 (0.93) Marine - 0.76 (1.14) Different game engine. Trying to pick up speed values from BW and trying to translate it SC2 doesn't work. Fire up BW yourself. Lings are slower.
I think you misunderstand. It doesn't matter that lings are slower in BW as compared to SC2, because the same goes for all units. Speeds here are normalized by zergling speed in each game. Nowhere am I directly comparing speed values between games. BW marines move at 79% the speed of BW zerglings; SC2 marines move at 76% the speed of SC2 zerglings.
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zealots go on a daily spanking spree, they autowin.
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Zerglings move so quick on creep that they could kill The Flash. Adrenal Gland is a little too weak for a Tier 3 upgrade though, and the AI is stupid. Zerglings in big numbers swarm around pointlessly too much and you have to babysit them to make them acquire targets properly.
Upgraded Chargelots kill stuff and they make tanks friendly fire.
Ultras have splash and crush forcefields.
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I find ultras far from cost efficient - for a unit that takes SO long to tech to and to hatch, it is ridiculously helpless against way too many units. I miss the BW days when ultras came out and you knew one of them was damn scary and was definitely gonna get some good job done. Now it's like, only when the zerg has over half the map and is outmacroing the other guy already can they be of some use, but they're so far from cost efficient, really :/
A deathball of colossi vs a "big ball" of ultras - from my experience, colossi will absolutely rape them if micro'ed a little bit and supported by a few units. The problem in comparison to BW is that Z has no spell or proper way to help engage an army with a strong ranged damage. Therefore Z purely has to rely on map and positionning, not on units balance itself.
Usually when a zerg gets a chance to position his army right and attacks from 2-3 locations at the same time, the fight turns out really even imo. If T/P microes his units better, he wins, if Z manages to micro better, he wins. But it's still a too situational thing imo as zergs often find themselves contained a bit and in that case, they just have to pull off something amazing to be able to do anything. It's not impossible, but it's a lot harder than it should be - there are simply too many really small chokes that make it easy to contain a zerg seeing how they lack range.
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On March 08 2011 08:29 morimacil wrote:
Design decisions seem to indicate that instead, they wanted the roach to be the new backbone of the zerg army, instead of the lings and the hydras.
If blizzard wanted roach to be the backbone of the zerg army they failed quite epicly. Look at TvZ, roaches are completely useless against common terran builds, they are decent against pure mech but other than that...Nothing
EDIT: Melee units should be able to stack while attacking, like workers do while mining.
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On March 09 2011 03:47 InsaniaK wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 08:29 morimacil wrote:
Design decisions seem to indicate that instead, they wanted the roach to be the new backbone of the zerg army, instead of the lings and the hydras.
If blizzard wanted roach to be the backbone of the zerg army they failed quite epicly. Look at TvZ, roaches are completely useless against common terran builds, they are decent against pure mech but other than that...Nothing EDIT: Melee units should be able to stack while attacking, like workers do while mining.
I'd prefer if ranged critical mass wouldnt be as effective as it is now.
Stacking is really a disadvantage considering how much it compliments splash damage and makes melee die even faster.
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On March 09 2011 03:56 ikona wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 03:47 InsaniaK wrote:On March 08 2011 08:29 morimacil wrote:
Design decisions seem to indicate that instead, they wanted the roach to be the new backbone of the zerg army, instead of the lings and the hydras.
If blizzard wanted roach to be the backbone of the zerg army they failed quite epicly. Look at TvZ, roaches are completely useless against common terran builds, they are decent against pure mech but other than that...Nothing EDIT: Melee units should be able to stack while attacking, like workers do while mining. I'd prefer if ranged critical mass wouldnt be as effective as it is now. Stacking is really a disadvantage considering how much it compliments splash damage and makes melee die even faster.
I guess, imagine 100 lings destroying buildings though;)
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The problem with Zealots is that concussive shells works on light units. The problem with Zerglings is that they scale horribly once the mid-game hits. Their hard counters in starcraft 2 are far far more effective against lings than BW ever was. Part of it is just due to them clumping up so much more, but Colossus and Hellion attacks just annihilate an almost infinite number of lings. In BW you'd be hard pressed to find a unit you can make 2 or 3 of and be able to negate dozens and dozens of zerglings. Their synergy with Ultralisks in the late-game in BW also really helped, but those damn ultras just take up so much of the precious attack surface area now. If they just made charge/adrenal glands cheaper and/or easier to tech to, you'd actually see these units used as more than a mineral dump.
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On March 09 2011 03:31 Psychlone wrote:
Ultras have splash and crush forcefields.
Ultralisks might crush forcefields, but they are big forcefields themselves.
There isnt all that much of a difference between your whole army blocked by FF or by Ultralisk. Both works basically same.
On March 09 2011 04:22 Ksi wrote:
The problem with Zealots is that concussive shells works on light units. The problem with Zerglings is that they scale horribly once the mid-game hits. Their hard counters in starcraft 2 are far far more effective against lings than BW ever was. Part of it is just due to them clumping up so much more, but Colossus and Hellion attacks just annihilate an almost infinite number of lings. In BW you'd be hard pressed to find a unit you can make 2 or 3 of and be able to negate dozens and dozens of zerglings. If they just made charge/adrenal glands cheaper and/or easier to tech to, you'd actually see these units used as more than a mineral dump.
I remember Firebats + Medic working well.
It just feels to me kinda strange, that Zergling with Adrenalin Glands attack slower than Stimmed Marine
GG 200/200 upgrades.
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EPT
