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Some of the discussion about collision size and the "ball of death" aspect of SC2 armies in the game design thread got me thinking about the effectiveness of melee units, in light of this. Melee units are at a natural disadvantage compared to ranged units in practically any RTS, irrespective of the actual mechanics, for fairly obvious reasons. Hence, melee units are typically compensated in some other way, be it through raw combat strength (lower cost, higher damage or durability), higher mobility (hello Zergling) or some sort of special ability. Now, in Brood War, Zerglings, Zealots and Ultras were quite fearsome; their power, however somewhat diminished in SC2. This can easily be seen just looking at the numbers, with Zerglings in particular taking a huge dps hit, demoting them from a primary late game damage dealer to something of a throw-away distraction. Additionally, the way they clump up together makes them significantly more vulnerable to aoe, with Siege Tanks in particular absolutely decimating the little buggers.
The thing that bugs me about this, is, completely disregarding the reasoning behind these changes - melee units are a lot worse off in SC2, compared to BW. To put it simply, with the way ranged units nicely ball up in a relatively small space, you can have a 100 supply ranged army attacking at the same time, if you put something close enough to it. I think the easiest way to see this in action is trying to make a lot of Zealots vs Roach/Hydra in PvZ. I once had this notion: "Well, in PvT I can make a lot of Zealots to tank for my Colossus ball, and they even do decent damage with some Forcefields. Why can't I do this in PvZ?". Well, as it turns out, the reason Zealots are pretty decent vs Terran, is that Marauder-heavy compositions which are so prevalent in that matchup, simply take forever to kill them. However, put a Zealot in front of a Roach/Hydra ball, and it practically evaporates instantly, with every single Roach and Hydra being able to attack them.
Another place where this is easy to identify, is Ultralisks vs a Stalker/Sentry/Colossus ball. On paper, they seem like the perfect counter. They walk over forcefields, do bonus damage to armored, and are huge and beefy - and therefore not affected by Colossus splash. Alas, in actual games, we almost always see the ball of death triumph anyway, which seems to go directly against the game logic. The reason this happens, is simply because a maximum of 3-4 ultras can attack the Protoss ball at the same time, while every single Stalker and Colossus can shower laser and death upon them.
I don't think I need to elaborate upon lings vs marines or tanks, not to mention Forcefield.
In summation, I want to ask: Are the melee units in SC2 too weak, given the huge mechanical disadvantage they're at in any given engagement? If so, would it be possible to buff Zerglings and Zealots in the mid to late game somehow, without making early rushes too good? Should the Ultralisk be made smaller, or should it perhaps walk over other Zerg units like the Colossus?
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I remember reading that zerglings are actually weaker than they were in Brood War. It's really noticeable with adrenal glands: in Brood War they became cracklings while in SC2 I hardly see a difference in attack speed. I think Blizzard may have nerfed them because of the stronger AI such as in surrounding.
I think Zerg would really benefit if zerglings were buffed in that they would have more strategic options. I also find it weird that ultralisks are a main damaging unit in SC2. They should just tank the damage while other units like zerglings and hydralisks actually deal the damage.
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yeah zerg players that do runbys are very scary. a lot of protoss players have neglected warp prism drops, but imagine having 6 warp gates worth of units being dropped in an enemy mineral line. zealots would kick butt!
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In SC1, area damage is much stronger. In PvT, mines and tank splash do a lot of friendly damage. In PvZ, storm is much much stronger in SC1 and any zerg in a ball gets slaughtered. Defiler is actually needed for zerg to buff their melee units (it casts dark swarm which is a cloud that sits on the map for a while and any units in it don't take damage from ranged attacks)
SC2 PvZ is balanced around force fields a lot. When you force field to split an army in half, zealots have nothing to do. If they attack, then the army isn't split in half because the army behind the force fields kills the zealots.
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I agree with OP.
But the problem with Zergling/Zealot is that those are really hard to balance units, not to say quite impossible. I would suggest to slightly improve their attack speed while also improving Helion dmg/attack speed.
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On March 08 2011 02:29 parn wrote:
I agree with OP.
But the problem with Zergling/Zealot is that those are really hard to balance units. I would suggest to slightly improve their attack speed while also improving Helion dmg/attack speed.
Zerglings definitely seem a lot weaker in SC2 than BW. Zealots are getting an interesting buff next patch which may make them much stronger.
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Tyler dropping knowledge of truth as always. I do think however adrenal glands should get a buff to make zerglings more relevant in the late game.
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Melee units were already cannon fodder tvz in BW, and Forcefields mean that zealots are now cannon fodder as well. Too bad really.
PvT was mech based so they had a place, and zealots will always have a place vs mech.
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On March 08 2011 02:19 Umbrella wrote:
I also find it weird that ultralisks are a main damaging unit in SC2. They should just tank the damage while other units like zerglings and hydralisks actually deal the damage.
But why? I think ultralisks are a lot more interesting the way they are in SC2, and a much scarier unit to fight, requiring good unit spread and kiting. You say that zerglings should get more strategic options, yet want to take options away from the ultralisk. Doesnt really make sense to me.
Just sounds like you want every unit to work like they did in BW, but this is a different game and melee units behave nothing like they did in BW. Going back to BW dynamics probably wouldnt work.
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ultralisks still arent worth their weight in bronze, but zerglings and zealots seem fine, just pick your confrontations well and prefer to avoid the deathball
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But why? I think ultralisks are a lot more interesting the way they are in SC2, and a much scarier unit to fight, requiring good unit spread and kiting. You say that zerglings should get more strategic options, yet want to take options away from the ultralisk. Doesnt really make sense to me.
Scary, good unit spread and kiting? Ultra's in sc2 are just crap. Units like stalkers tear them apart while ultras do bonus damage and splash to stalkers making them a seeming 'counter'. How is it interesting that they just get demolished by protoss/terran balls. You don't even need unit spread since the splash is so nonexistant you can just kite all day almost nullifying the ultralisk completely.
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I do believe the zergling is too weak. Not the zealot. Zerglings in SC1 beat zealots 3 vs 1 and marines 1 on1.
In SC2 zealots beat 3 zerglings and 1 marine beats 1 zergling. Zerglings played a big role in the ability for zerg to pressure early.
In starcraft 1, zerglings would beat terran and protoss units in small numbers, but lose in large numbers. As more units appeared on the field, there would be less surface area for the zerglings to melee in. More marines = better ball. more zealots = better wall and no surround.
In starcraft 2, zerglings lose to terran and protoss units in both small and large numbers.
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On March 08 2011 02:24 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
When you force field to split an army in half, zealots have nothing to do. If they attack, then the army isn't split in half because the army behind the force fields kills the zealots.
The zealots still kill the units in front of the forcefields. This fact is way too significant to ignore, especially in PvT. And doubly so in the early game.
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On March 08 2011 02:31 KevinIX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 02:29 parn wrote:
I agree with OP.
But the problem with Zergling/Zealot is that those are really hard to balance units. I would suggest to slightly improve their attack speed while also improving Helion dmg/attack speed. Zerglings definitely seem a lot weaker in SC2 than BW. Zealots are getting an interesting buff next patch which may make them much stronger.
wait, what buff are the zealot getting next patch? oO'
Is this the same patch that's removing amulet?
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On March 08 2011 02:59 me_viet wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 02:31 KevinIX wrote:On March 08 2011 02:29 parn wrote:
I agree with OP.
But the problem with Zergling/Zealot is that those are really hard to balance units. I would suggest to slightly improve their attack speed while also improving Helion dmg/attack speed. Zerglings definitely seem a lot weaker in SC2 than BW. Zealots are getting an interesting buff next patch which may make them much stronger. wait, what buff are the zealot getting next patch? oO' Is this the same patch that's removing amulet?
When a stimmed bioball is kiting a zealot force, and a zealot charges, it is now basically guarenteed to get at least 1 hit off.
Stimmed shelled marauders could kite zealots without ever being hit before, even with charge.
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On March 08 2011 02:50 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
ultralisks still arent worth their weight in bronze, but zerglings and zealots seem fine, just pick your confrontations well and prefer to avoid the deathball
If you take for example good ball of stimmed marines vs zerglings then you need million of zerglings to kill that and I am not exaggerating here.
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On March 08 2011 02:51 solidbebe wrote:Show nested quote +
But why? I think ultralisks are a lot more interesting the way they are in SC2, and a much scarier unit to fight, requiring good unit spread and kiting. You say that zerglings should get more strategic options, yet want to take options away from the ultralisk. Doesnt really make sense to me.
Scary, good unit spread and kiting? Ultra's in sc2 are just crap. Units like stalkers tear them apart while ultras do bonus damage and splash to stalkers making them a seeming 'counter'. How is it interesting that they just get demolished by protoss/terran balls. You don't even need unit spread since the splash is so nonexistant you can just kite all day almost nullifying the ultralisk completely.
Thats odd, because I see ultralisks all the time in the lategame ZvT. In fact, I've lost to them twice today at 3400 masters. Smart tech switches between ling/bling, ultras, mutas and even broodlords can totally screw over any terran player in the lategame.
But yeah, I guess they are a terrible unit if all you do with them is A-move them into 10+ tanks.
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i'm a firm believer in speedlings
I think when zerg players figure out how to micro them to their full potential people will scream OP just like marines
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On March 08 2011 02:59 me_viet wrote:
wait, what buff are the zealot getting next patch? oO'
Is this the same patch that's removing amulet?
Charge is getting buffed, they will always get atleast one hit off when Charge gets activated.
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EPT
