typhon sucks, i can't ever scout a single thing. blueflame, banshees, mass bio... let's see. Double ovies and zergling pokes, nope, can't see a thing.

SoulSever

Canada779 Posts

March 04 2011 03:08 GMT

#22

You're placing way too much emphasis on maps. A good T or P will lose to a better zerg if he scouts well and has a good mix of droning/units.

Foreplay

United States1154 Posts

March 04 2011 03:13 GMT

#23

I agree 100 percent. You pretty much hit it on the head. These are the maps i thumbs down. Makes me sad that blizz replaced terrible maps with more terrible maps. I think i'd actually rather play steppes than backwater or slag.

hmunkey

United Kingdom1973 Posts

March 04 2011 03:16 GMT

#24

I absolutely hate Slag and Blackwater. The thirds are so incredibly far away to the point that they're basically impossible to defend if your opponent decides to send a decently sized force to kill them. Ideally I'd counter but that's pretty difficult against tanks or forcefields.

ZarMulix

United States77 Posts

March 04 2011 05:54 GMT

#25

I don't think the maps favor current Zerg play as well as some of the old ones (Shakuras Plateau, etc), however if Zerg can win on it at all remains to be seen. I think everyone should try to formulate a strategy for every map regardless of how it fits into your style or comfort zone, because this helps everyone as a result. I'm guessing that early aggressive plays that transition into contains may emerge as a result of these maps because of the rush distances and the difficulty for every race to expand past their natural (yes I'm aware of planetary fortresses, but still). I think some cool ideas have come out of restrictions like Catz' 4 drone harassment on Steppes of War and even Idra does some quick hydra + spine crawler push there.

Piski

Finland3461 Posts

March 04 2011 07:27 GMT

#26

How can any zergs say shattered temple is a bad map. In worst cases (close spots) it's like metalopolis and 66% of the time you have super easy bases. After your 2th base it's not hard to break down the rocks and then you just have to keep control of your side of the base and you have a bunch of super easy expansions.
The center is just the things I dreamed about when I spawn as zerg. Maybe it's not the best zerg map ever, but 66% of the time it's just perfect.
Agreed that 33% of the time it's hell but not more than metalopolis.

Angelbelow

United States3728 Posts

March 04 2011 08:55 GMT

#27

Thanks for the post. Really good work.

Turgid

United States1623 Posts

March 04 2011 08:58 GMT

#28

I have the same maps thumbed down as Protoss. I really don't want to play on a lot of these maps, particularly small ones like DQ. It's never ever fun.

edit:

On March 04 2011 12:08 SoulSever wrote:
You're placing way too much emphasis on maps. A good T or P will lose to a better zerg if he scouts well and has a good mix of droning/units.

Depends on the general skill level of the players and how bad the map/positions actually are. I'm not sure what zerg is supposed to do in close spawns metal or slag other than do one of their flaccid all-ins.

Tef

Sweden443 Posts

March 04 2011 09:11 GMT

#29

Hmm.. I haven't had any problems with Slag Pit actually. Sure, it can be difficult to defend a bunker rush, but I play very agressive on that map. So if they go for 2-rax I usually crush it.

Typhon is heaven for me. Multiple paths to counter, easy to harass, and the map just begs me to go muta/ling in ZvT and ZvP.

On Gulch I am experimenting with a 2:nd hatch right below the ramp, and then a 3rd hatch at the natural. With the 2nd hatch below your ramp you can defend a 4-gate and still drone up pretty hard in your main while getting enough larva for units. After you have crushed his attack you can easily take the natural and deny his with roach/ling. I have had mixed results of course.

Looky

United States1608 Posts

March 04 2011 09:18 GMT

#30

your points dont really add up.

i think you analyze this too soon. Should test more on these maps. i feel the distance are pretty good even when you get close positions on these new maps. zergs should be comfortable playings on wide naturals since xel naga and metal are probably the most played maps. You shouldnt worry about the gold since the natural is pretty big and tanks sieging near it is should be the least of your worries.

i welcome wide naturals since this doesnt allow nexus and cc first on these big maps against a zerg players who cant really pressure early without 6 pooling.

i guess its depends on the style you play, on what maps you like or dislike. i personally dont like ss since the air distance is so short and makes drops and phoenixs so effective.

NeoLearner

Belgium1847 Posts

March 04 2011 09:38 GMT

#31

Nice read, although I really have to read it again once or twice to really get everything...

About the changes to the existing maps, I really don't get everything as the colors are quite confusing sometimes. Is there a legend for the different colors?
Adding that third base below the main in the shattered temple seems dangerous. If Terran plants a PF there with 2 turrets, he's basically protected his main. You would have to go through his PF to get to the main. Compared to Xel naga where you could still engage the main if the gold has been PF'ed.

Tachion

Canada8573 Posts

March 04 2011 09:39 GMT

#32

I'd have to disagree with your assessment of Typhon vs Slag in regards for which to thumbs down.

Vertical positions on Typon is extremely hard in either ZvP or ZvT. The destructible rocks there make early aggression in vertical spots more difficult, while favoring a mid-game tank or colossus push through them. On close position Slag, you at least have a better opportunity to roach rush or baneling bust and use that distance to your advantage. You don't have as good a chance to do that on Typhon.

The relatively few expansions on Slag also favor Zerg quite a lot, since it's easier for us to defend our spaced out expansions, and easier for us to punish T/P for spacing out theirs. Slag is also way more wide open than Typhon, and the narrow passages on that map heavily favor tank and colossus play.

So in Summary, while early game can suck close positions on Slag, It favors a mid to late game. Typhon has a more favorable early game but gets more difficult as the game progresses since it gives your opponent access to easier expansions than Slag and the map architecture favors T/P popular unit compositions.

plainsane

Germany98 Posts

March 04 2011 09:59 GMT

#33

Very nice writeup! Thanks for that.

The map pool seems very balanced so far since everyone has 3 vetos still and the amount of bad maps for any race has halved.

WniO

United States2706 Posts

March 04 2011 10:16 GMT

#34

Seems like you didnt even play them and just made observations from the overview. Try and actually play them before you cast judgment. And just stretching the map to make it bigger DOES NOT MAKE THE MAP BETTER.

KennyGza

United States5 Posts

March 04 2011 12:05 GMT

#35

Very cool. You making a good effort towards this. Honestly, I am surprised they left delta quadrant in the map pool. Most Zerg players I talk to absolutely hate it. I'd take some of the other old maps over delta quadrant any day.

whaty0uwant

New Zealand346 Posts

March 04 2011 12:13 GMT

#36

Xel Naga, Shakuras and Metalopolis are the only decent maps.

Mailing

United States3087 Posts

March 04 2011 12:18 GMT

#37

I enjoyed the 3d views of the maps, been looking for something like this :D

Winterfrozz

Sweden357 Posts

March 04 2011 16:45 GMT

#38

The new ladder maps make me want to cry. I have no idea why they didn't ad GSL maps or made new ones.

Bagi

Germany6799 Posts

March 04 2011 17:20 GMT

#39

Zerg temple gets a reluctant thumbs up? Really now?

If you spawn crossmap on that, its probably the best possible map for a zerg to play on. Safe expansions, HUGE middle to flank the T/P armies. Lost temple was already good for Z on cross positions, now its much better.

Camlito

Australia4040 Posts

March 04 2011 17:30 GMT

#40

Your thought process is exactly the same as mine, and the same feeling on if a map should be thumbed down or not. Typhon is bigger with alot of expos so you can make it work, so i thumb it up pretty confidently, and shattered is indeed for me a lesser of 3 evils and is just another metalopolis where close spots are extremely difficult in a bigger way. However i always enjoyed lost temple if i knew they weren't dropping me, if it wasn't close that is, and now it's even better. Also after playing the maps, backwater and slag aren't too terrible, although i really REALLY hate ZvZ on them. So hard to correctly place and defend everything to ever expand, and it becomes very unit based.

I think alot of new intricate unit timings will come out as a result, and with less emphasis on spine crawlers due to the designs (wider nat on new LT, typhon wide, slag expo distant from ramp, 2 entrances, backwater incredibly hard to defend early natural) we'll see how said timings might work.

I also smile every time i get xel'naga still!