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On February 27 2011 11:18 TheTenthDoc wrote:
This patch:
-nerfs Terran early game
-nerfs Protoss late game
-buffs infestors to be mini-templar
Isn't this exactly what the pro community has been demanding more or less? I really don't see the hate for this patch beyond the mothership nerf (which might be less harsh if you can attack while invulnerable; vortex my army for them to be invincible for a bit could be fun).
The patch doesn't really do an effective job "nerfing" terran early game. So they attack with early MM pressure until stim finishes, and then bust through the toss anyways. If they really want to fix PvT then they need to address colossus and leave HT the same, and improve stalker in return.
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On February 27 2011 11:18 TheTenthDoc wrote:
This patch:
-nerfs Terran early game
-nerfs Protoss late game
-buffs infestors to be mini-templar
Isn't this exactly what the pro community has been demanding more or less? I really don't see the hate for this patch beyond the mothership nerf (which might be less harsh if you can attack while invulnerable; vortex my army for them to be invincible for a bit could be fun).
Protoss late game needed a nerf yes. But they effectively made hts a waste of time. Was the energy upgrade overpowered? sure but they over nerfed it. that is the concern.
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On February 27 2011 11:18 TheTenthDoc wrote:
This patch:
-nerfs Terran early game
-nerfs Protoss late game
-buffs infestors to be mini-templar
Isn't this exactly what the pro community has been demanding more or less? I really don't see the hate for this patch beyond the mothership nerf (which might be less harsh if you can attack while invulnerable; vortex my army for them to be invincible for a bit could be fun).
It's not a buff for infestors. it's not a buff at all. it's completely and utterly removing the infestor from being an effective unit, and turns them into bad artillery instead of a management unit.
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I can already see the new mothership strategy....
Mass recall your army into the enemy base, when you notice the enemy beginning to pull back to deal with it, vortex your own army. From here you get 1.5 seconds of free hits when the vortex wears off.
Seems that the change makes it more worthwhile to vortex your own units now :S
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I wonder if there's a political reason for the strange balance changes.
If the designers did exactly as people demanded, they'd be setting a precedent that they'd always have to abide by the players' suggestions. By throwing curve balls they can keep people's expectations under control.
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On February 27 2011 11:05 Pandain wrote:
Wow I am very disapointed with this patch. While there are some good changes (Fungal no longer instant cast, and Stim time increase will at least be interesting to see), it just seems like they've taken out so much of the exctiement in Starcraft 2.
1.Great, now archon toilets are impossible, so whenever we did get to see an epic game it is 10x less epic? Furthermore, now these units will be invulnerable for a full 1.5 seconds? What is that?
2. Grandmaster league. As a top 400 player struggling to get into top 200, the specifics about grandmaster league make me a very sad panda. Great, so I have to wait a whole (6 months? How long has this season lasted) in order to become top 200?
Furthormore, there are a series of lesser points which are still important:
1.Viking flower, very cute and enjoyable to see move that players used. Sort of like muta stacking, but no one complained about not being able to see how many mutas there were, did they?
2. So now, despite how well you macro, zealots will be guranteed to chase a target?
3.Khahdryion amulet removed...templar tech is so much less viable as the warp in potential is greatly reduced.
1) Archon toilets are not impossible, you just do less damage and won't be able to clean the entire army. You can use forcefields to keep everything together after the vortex.
2) Full 1.5 seconds? It is like 1 second in real-life time. I'm not sure if you are trolling and being sarcastic or actually being serious. A FULL ONE SECOND OMG SO MUCH.
3) Grandmaster league is for the top 200. If you are at any point a top 200 player part of your region, then you will be in the grandmaster league. When you lose top 200, you will be kicked out. The only times you cannot be promoted/demoted is during the last week of a season's end.
4) Viking flower should stay  but its not a big deal
5) Zealots with speed always chase. Now they will get at least one hit rather than 0. They will still block eachother though, so this isn't going to rape your army or anything.
6) Amulet removed is sad panda
Overall I don't like this patch just like you. But it would be really awesome if people stopped exaggerating the nerfs/buffs. None of the things that were changed are the end of the world, and none will make the game any more or less balanced than it was.
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On February 27 2011 11:25 CortoMontez wrote:
I can already see the new mothership strategy....
Mass recall your army into the enemy base, when you notice the enemy beginning to pull back to deal with it, vortex your own army. From here you get 1.5 seconds of free hits when the vortex wears off.
Seems that the change makes it more worthwhile to vortex your own units now :S
Kiwikaki does this whenever he uses Mothership =D
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Bunker and stim rushs are dead.
BC buff help lategame?
Infestor buff = bio death
Templar nerf = temp death
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On February 27 2011 11:24 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 11:18 TheTenthDoc wrote:
This patch:
-nerfs Terran early game
-nerfs Protoss late game
-buffs infestors to be mini-templar
Isn't this exactly what the pro community has been demanding more or less? I really don't see the hate for this patch beyond the mothership nerf (which might be less harsh if you can attack while invulnerable; vortex my army for them to be invincible for a bit could be fun). It's not a buff for infestors. it's not a buff at all. it's completely and utterly removing the infestor from being an effective unit, and turns them into bad artillery instead of a management unit.
As a non-Z player my information on the effect of the infestor buff comes from this: http://www.justin.tv/rootcatz/b/280412952 which has Catz and Sheth both liking the infestor change. Infestors are weaker when it comes to slowing pushes, yes, but they now will brutalize Marine/Marauder health with fungals and also kill medivacs much faster than before since they're armored. And it's more management focused now because you have to predict movement when deciding where to fire.
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On February 27 2011 11:29 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 11:24 PrinceXizor wrote:On February 27 2011 11:18 TheTenthDoc wrote:
This patch:
-nerfs Terran early game
-nerfs Protoss late game
-buffs infestors to be mini-templar
Isn't this exactly what the pro community has been demanding more or less? I really don't see the hate for this patch beyond the mothership nerf (which might be less harsh if you can attack while invulnerable; vortex my army for them to be invincible for a bit could be fun). It's not a buff for infestors. it's not a buff at all. it's completely and utterly removing the infestor from being an effective unit, and turns them into bad artillery instead of a management unit. As a non-Z player my information on the effect of the infestor buff comes from this: http://www.justin.tv/rootcatz/b/280412952 which has Catz and Sheth both liking the infestor change. Infestors are weaker when it comes to slowing pushes, yes, but they now will brutalize Marine/Marauder health with fungals and also kill medivacs much faster than before since they're armored. And it's more management focused now because you have to predict movement when deciding where to fire.
i meant game management and not unit management btw.
No longer can you hold off the early game push and harrassment with infestors until you get your third up, because you need more units or more infestors, one delays the third, the other is impossible to get cost wise.
no longer can you put 1-2 infestors in your far away bases to hold off until your army gets there to defend.
no longer can you use infestors to scare away a siege push, because forcing tanks out of position for 8 seconds is useful, for 4 seconds is impossible to capitalize on.
No longer can you use infestors to trap and kill pheonixes when they are dominating your mutas in hit and runs.
Catz has always used infestors as artillery. and so a reduction of them as a management unit and an increase in their artillery capabilities is obvious to him as abuff. though it removes whole sections
pretty much infestors are being moved further from defilers, and closer to high templar. which i 100% disagree with.
EDIT: pretty much this reduces the number of mid game options zerg has vs T and Z to 1 and 2 respectively, instead of 2 and 3.
EDIT: also medivacs are light.
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On February 27 2011 11:18 TheTenthDoc wrote:
This patch:
-nerfs Terran early game
-nerfs Protoss late game
-buffs infestors to be mini-templar
Isn't this exactly what the pro community has been demanding more or less? I really don't see the hate for this patch beyond the mothership nerf (which might be less harsh if you can attack while invulnerable; vortex my army for them to be invincible for a bit could be fun).
+buff terran lategame (BC speed buff)
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On February 27 2011 11:29 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 11:24 PrinceXizor wrote:On February 27 2011 11:18 TheTenthDoc wrote:
This patch:
-nerfs Terran early game
-nerfs Protoss late game
-buffs infestors to be mini-templar
Isn't this exactly what the pro community has been demanding more or less? I really don't see the hate for this patch beyond the mothership nerf (which might be less harsh if you can attack while invulnerable; vortex my army for them to be invincible for a bit could be fun). It's not a buff for infestors. it's not a buff at all. it's completely and utterly removing the infestor from being an effective unit, and turns them into bad artillery instead of a management unit. As a non-Z player my information on the effect of the infestor buff comes from this: http://www.justin.tv/rootcatz/b/280412952 which has Catz and Sheth both liking the infestor change. Infestors are weaker when it comes to slowing pushes, yes, but they now will brutalize Marine/Marauder health with fungals and also kill medivacs much faster than before since they're armored. And it's more management focused now because you have to predict movement when deciding where to fire.
When they recorded that, they hadn't tried the infestor out at ALL. They have no actual idea of how it works/speed of the projectile, outside of theorycrafting.
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Anyone else realized that zvz has become muta wars now that you can dodge fungal growth?
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On February 27 2011 11:36 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 11:29 TheTenthDoc wrote:On February 27 2011 11:24 PrinceXizor wrote:On February 27 2011 11:18 TheTenthDoc wrote:
This patch:
-nerfs Terran early game
-nerfs Protoss late game
-buffs infestors to be mini-templar
Isn't this exactly what the pro community has been demanding more or less? I really don't see the hate for this patch beyond the mothership nerf (which might be less harsh if you can attack while invulnerable; vortex my army for them to be invincible for a bit could be fun). It's not a buff for infestors. it's not a buff at all. it's completely and utterly removing the infestor from being an effective unit, and turns them into bad artillery instead of a management unit. As a non-Z player my information on the effect of the infestor buff comes from this: http://www.justin.tv/rootcatz/b/280412952 which has Catz and Sheth both liking the infestor change. Infestors are weaker when it comes to slowing pushes, yes, but they now will brutalize Marine/Marauder health with fungals and also kill medivacs much faster than before since they're armored. And it's more management focused now because you have to predict movement when deciding where to fire. i meant game management and not unit management btw. No longer can you hold off the early game push and harrassment with infestors until you get your third up, because you need more units or more infestors, one delays the third, the other is impossible to get cost wise. no longer can you put 1-2 infestors in your far away bases to hold off until your army gets there to defend. no longer can you use infestors to scare away a siege push, because forcing tanks out of position for 8 seconds is useful, for 4 seconds is impossible to capitalize on. No longer can you use infestors to trap and kill pheonixes when they are dominating your mutas in hit and runs. Catz has always used infestors as artillery. and so a reduction of them as a management unit and an increase in their artillery capabilities is obvious to him as abuff. though it removes whole sections pretty much infestors are being moved further from defilers, and closer to high templar. which i 100% disagree with.
Well you'll note that at first I said they were being buffed into mini-templars, so I think we may agree more than at first glance. 
In the early game (pre-medivac) the dps increase may play a bigger role; testing will be helpful. Infestors can trap-kill air units in half the time as before with higher DPS, especially for things like vikings that take extra damage as armored. The tanks...eh. Four seconds may or may not be enough.
I think the role of the unit has shifted, yes, but it's still an effective unit. Fungal is now less of an ensnare and more of a plague/ensnare hybrid. The real problem for infestors as support units that infested terrans are pretty poor and neural parasite is terrible. Defilers could double as support units (dark swarm) or units that could force repairs or death of army blobs (with plague).
Edit to your second edit: Medivacs aren't light, they're armored. http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Medivac_dropship
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poor templar they are about as useful in battle as as a 200/200 army consisting entirely of probes vs's a handful of blue flame hellions.
edit: actually the probes are more likely to do more damage seeing as they actually have an attack
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guess i never realized when medivacs became armored from when they were light (in early beta) since i don't play T and don't have + light/armored damage vs air as a zerg.
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I don't see how the zerg infestor change is a nerf at all. To the players crying it's a nerf, have you gone on the PTR and tested it out? It's a brilliant change in practically every way. The skill cap for the spell has been increased significantly both ways and it now hits pretty damn hard. I really see this change making hydra/ling/infestor viable again seeing infestors absolutely obliterate packed bio now.
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On February 27 2011 12:23 proot wrote:
I don't see how the zerg infestor change is a nerf at all. To the players crying it's a nerf, have you gone on the PTR and tested it out? It's a brilliant change in practically every way. The skill cap for the spell has been increased significantly both ways and it now hits pretty damn hard. I really see this change making hydra/ling/infestor viable again seeing infestors absolutely obliterate packed bio now.
the people who feel it's a nerf used infestors for the snare ability, the people who think it's a buff saw the dps increase as a buff. If psi storm did 40 damage but snared units for 4 seconds, people would view that as a buff or a nerf? it all depends on what you want to do with the unit.
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On February 27 2011 11:29 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 11:24 PrinceXizor wrote:On February 27 2011 11:18 TheTenthDoc wrote:
This patch:
-nerfs Terran early game
-nerfs Protoss late game
-buffs infestors to be mini-templar
Isn't this exactly what the pro community has been demanding more or less? I really don't see the hate for this patch beyond the mothership nerf (which might be less harsh if you can attack while invulnerable; vortex my army for them to be invincible for a bit could be fun). It's not a buff for infestors. it's not a buff at all. it's completely and utterly removing the infestor from being an effective unit, and turns them into bad artillery instead of a management unit. As a non-Z player my information on the effect of the infestor buff comes from this: http://www.justin.tv/rootcatz/b/280412952 which has Catz and Sheth both liking the infestor change. Infestors are weaker when it comes to slowing pushes, yes, but they now will brutalize Marine/Marauder health with fungals and also kill medivacs much faster than before since they're armored. And it's more management focused now because you have to predict movement when deciding where to fire. As much as i respect catz and sheth, thats just their opinion on the matter, i think blizzard is really going in the wrong direction with infestors and making them worse in the process.
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By the way I haven't seen a bunker rush in a while. What match-up/league was it a problem for?
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EPT
