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post like this and the 1 just shows that you (me) waste your time here.
you really think a master t never played a macro game? never dit it, allways go allin out of 1 or 2 base?
I really think a discussion over any kind of game strategie (at sc2) is not possible on TL.
signing out...
Its starting to look that way, everytime a thread opens on game discussion the only responses people can muster are
On February 05 2011 05:39 Zrana wrote:
Jinro.
On February 05 2011 05:40 shabinka wrote:Yeah! QTF. Jinro doesn't know how to macro. /sarcasm
Don't get me wrong, jinro is a great player and obviously successful, but peoples only argument towards any kind of game discussion is l2p X players is currently doing good, its been degrading every thread in the sc2 section.
Every GSL Whatever race wins is suddenly "balanced" because X player won a single tournament. l2p zergs fruitdealer did it, l2p toss MC did it...so on so forth. At this point every race has won a GSL now, should blizzard just stop releasing patches now, just close the book and say alright every race can win now we are done, because thats the kind of attitude people put out on the forums.
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I expect terran to move to more of a BW style turtle base play on larger maps. Terran has every tool necessary to be great in any situation. Is 2 base play powerful? Yes. Will terrans have to change their play? Yes. Is that a bad thing? Fuck no.
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On February 05 2011 06:00 PredY wrote:i still find it funny people actually think terran is "weaker" after 10 or so minutes. that's just ridiculous. marine/marauder gives you edge in early/mid game. what do you expect when you don't win right away, that you can combat collosi/HTs with mainy T1 and T1.5 units? get real. how about trying to play to terran late game strengs as well - mech/air tech. the thing that it's not yet figured out doesn't mean "oohh terran won't win anything on big maps". cut the crap already, seriously getting sick of it. [ + Show Spoiler +QUOTE] On February 05 2011 05:58 FabledIntegral wrote:On February 05 2011 05:50 PredY wrote:
i've been playing those big maps for some time and i can tell you, we'll see more of 2/3 base timing pushes with big upgrades
also using fast units especially hellions and medivac drops, can even see some players using speed reapers. obviously it all depend on maps layout but that is the general idea. i hope all the scv+marine bitbybits terrans and i-can-only-4gate protoss players vanish. Larger maps only decrease the effectiveness of a 4gate marginally yep, but also you can more easily scout if he is going proxy pylons, also takes more time for his gateway units to get to your base, can't put that much early pressure so you can scout more etc..
So what you are saying the 99% of pro players are stupid enough to go marine/marauder/viking in late game vs zealot/stalker/collosi and they should try tanks and bc/banshee? Really? I would love to see one try.
And what are you talking about 4 gate scouting ??? How is it easier to scout a proxy pylon that can hide anywhere on a larger map or the 4 gate or what? And how exactly does it take more time for his units to get to your base if they warp in shit at a PROXY pylon (proxy!=in-base-500squares-away-pylon)
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On February 05 2011 06:08 kodas wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 06:00 PredY wrote:i still find it funny people actually think terran is "weaker" after 10 or so minutes. that's just ridiculous. marine/marauder gives you edge in early/mid game. what do you expect when you don't win right away, that you can combat collosi/HTs with mainy T1 and T1.5 units? get real. how about trying to play to terran late game strengs as well - mech/air tech. the thing that it's not yet figured out doesn't mean "oohh terran won't win anything on big maps". cut the crap already, seriously getting sick of it. On February 05 2011 05:58 FabledIntegral wrote:On February 05 2011 05:50 PredY wrote:
i've been playing those big maps for some time and i can tell you, we'll see more of 2/3 base timing pushes with big upgrades
also using fast units especially hellions and medivac drops, can even see some players using speed reapers. obviously it all depend on maps layout but that is the general idea. i hope all the scv+marine bitbybits terrans and i-can-only-4gate protoss players vanish. Larger maps only decrease the effectiveness of a 4gate marginally. yep, but also you can more easily scout if he is going proxy pylons, also takes more time for his gateway units to get to your base, can't put that much early pressure so you can scout more etc.. This is so bias, it gave me aids. I don't think you understand the fundamental reasoning behind going MMM, Terran's need it to survive the mid game. It gives us the ability to pressure and keep expanding keeping the game on an even footing. If you go straight mech from the start you will die to most common col/stalker midgames or you are force to turtle with tanks and then the Protoss will just out macro you. If you try at any point to trans from bio to mech, the Protoss will kill you. my 2 cents prolly just as bias 
well...yes that's what i meant. you use your early/mid game strenght = MMM, then transition into late game strenght = mech/air. or straight away mech with good upgrades could work as well i feel kinda like in bw with fast 3base fast armory upgrades but that's for another topic.
btw i'm terran as well, no bias, but kinda annoyed by all the arguments about terran being weak lategame 
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On February 05 2011 06:10 uSnAmplified wrote:Show nested quote +
post like this and the 1 just shows that you (me) waste your time here.
you really think a master t never played a macro game? never dit it, allways go allin out of 1 or 2 base?
I really think a discussion over any kind of game strategie (at sc2) is not possible on TL.
signing out...
Its starting to look that way, everytime a thread opens on game discussion the only responses people can muster are Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 05:40 shabinka wrote:On February 05 2011 05:39 Zrana wrote:
Jinro. Yeah! QTF. Jinro doesn't know how to macro. /sarcasm Don't get me wrong, jinro is a great player and obviously successful, but peoples only argument towards any kind of game discussion is l2p X players is currently doing good, its been degrading every thread in the sc2 section. Every GSL Whatever race wins is suddenly "balanced" because X player won a single tournament. l2p zergs fruitdealer did it, l2p toss MC did it...so on so forth. At this point every race has won a GSL now, should blizzard just stop releasing patches now, just close the book and say alright every race can win now we are done, because thats the kind of attitude people put out on the forums.
Excellent post.
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On February 05 2011 06:13 sadyque wrote:
So what you are saying the 99% of pro players are stupid enough to go marine/marauder/viking in late game vs zealot/stalker/collosi and they should try tanks and bc/banshee? Really? I would love to see one try.
And what are you talking about 4 gate scouting ??? How is it easier to scout a proxy pylon that can hide anywhere on a larger map or the 4 gate or what? And how exactly does it take more time for his units to get to your base if they warp in shit at a PROXY pylon (proxy!=in-base-500squares-away-pylon)
Please use your head. It's nothing more than common sense.
1. You see the probe leave his main to make the proxy pylon, it also has to leave earlier to get there in time meaning you have an easier chance to see it when you're initially scouting.
2. It's mindboggling that you can't realize that you're producing units before warpgates finish and you need to use those units as well in the attack.
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On February 05 2011 06:08 DyEnasTy wrote:
Does anyone else think that if Terran didnt have the nerfs blizz put on them after release that Terran would be better on larger maps? (ie tank nerf, depot before rax ect)
I think alot of the balance changes are because of the shitty maps we've been playing on. And larger maps might bring out the larger imbalances.
...How would the depot before rax nerf, if reversed, make terrans better on larger maps?
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Defensive macro terran is pretty strong, just look at jinro.
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Terran has both incredibly defensive, and incredibly mobile offensive options. I can't possibly imagine how they wouldn't be able to figure something out on bigger maps. Pretty much everything in their arsenal from siege tanks, to PF's, to sensor towers, to drops/banshees/hellions/MMM and mech seems to scream that they are incredibly versatile in whatever style a map leans towards.
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On February 05 2011 05:46 Chise wrote:Well, this is pretty much the answer. The main problem I see is that most Terrans don't even try to play Macro games. Obviously, if only one out of 10 games you play is a Macro game, you will lose to people who play Macro games as often as they can, simply because they are more experienced. Jinro spent more than 2 months on learning how to effectively play Macro Terran. He didn't manage to qualify for 2 GSL. Then, he finally learnt to play Macro Terran and reached RO4 twice in a row.
i guess you've never seen jinro during the beta? the only games that i can remember of him then were mostly macro games =/ and not many people knew of him then.
and how is jinro the answer to this...? i love him as much as anyone else, but it's not like his macro is the most impressive i.e. being the most consistent, etc., e.g. last night jinro vs select in their ace match for the gcpl. if there's any terran player to go to it would be mvp atm, considering his play adapts very well, e.g. using foxer's play style against foxer during the gsl finals and 4-0ing him.
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On February 05 2011 06:17 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 06:13 sadyque wrote:
So what you are saying the 99% of pro players are stupid enough to go marine/marauder/viking in late game vs zealot/stalker/collosi and they should try tanks and bc/banshee? Really? I would love to see one try.
And what are you talking about 4 gate scouting ??? How is it easier to scout a proxy pylon that can hide anywhere on a larger map or the 4 gate or what? And how exactly does it take more time for his units to get to your base if they warp in shit at a PROXY pylon (proxy!=in-base-500squares-away-pylon)
Please use your head. It's nothing more than common sense. 1. You see the probe leave his main to make the proxy pylon, it also has to leave earlier to get there in time meaning you have an easier chance to see it when you're initially scouting. 2. It's mindboggling that you can't realize that you're producing units before warpgates finish and you need to use those units as well in the attack.
1. Very true if you are watching a replay. How can you see a 9 pylon probe leave his base to make a pylon....Im pretty sure there are no maps currently or in the near future where a probe takes 4 minutes to go from one base to the other and build a pylon.
2. Ye its mind bogling that you think protoss attack when they dont have the wpgates ready. By the time everything is upgraded the units built by the gateways are already near the proxy pylon gathering dust and w8ting for their breteren to join them from the warp...
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On February 05 2011 06:16 PredY wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 06:08 kodas wrote:On February 05 2011 06:00 PredY wrote:i still find it funny people actually think terran is "weaker" after 10 or so minutes. that's just ridiculous. marine/marauder gives you edge in early/mid game. what do you expect when you don't win right away, that you can combat collosi/HTs with mainy T1 and T1.5 units? get real. how about trying to play to terran late game strengs as well - mech/air tech. the thing that it's not yet figured out doesn't mean "oohh terran won't win anything on big maps". cut the crap already, seriously getting sick of it. On February 05 2011 05:58 FabledIntegral wrote:On February 05 2011 05:50 PredY wrote:
i've been playing those big maps for some time and i can tell you, we'll see more of 2/3 base timing pushes with big upgrades
also using fast units especially hellions and medivac drops, can even see some players using speed reapers. obviously it all depend on maps layout but that is the general idea. i hope all the scv+marine bitbybits terrans and i-can-only-4gate protoss players vanish. Larger maps only decrease the effectiveness of a 4gate marginally. yep, but also you can more easily scout if he is going proxy pylons, also takes more time for his gateway units to get to your base, can't put that much early pressure so you can scout more etc.. This is so bias, it gave me aids. I don't think you understand the fundamental reasoning behind going MMM, Terran's need it to survive the mid game. It gives us the ability to pressure and keep expanding keeping the game on an even footing. If you go straight mech from the start you will die to most common col/stalker midgames or you are force to turtle with tanks and then the Protoss will just out macro you. If you try at any point to trans from bio to mech, the Protoss will kill you. my 2 cents prolly just as bias well...yes that's what i meant. you use your early/mid game strenght = MMM, then transition into late game strenght = mech/air. or straight away mech with good upgrades could work as well i feel kinda like in bw with fast 3base fast armory upgrades but that's for another topic. btw i'm terran as well, no bias, but kinda annoyed by all the arguments about terran being weak lategame
Thats where the problem is tho man, How do you transfer from a 6 rax/1 Fact/2 Starport into a full mech build??? Are you going to spend another 1000/500 on production buildings? where are you going to fit everything?
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On February 05 2011 06:01 gogogadgetflow wrote:At any rate, Terran also has very strong harass options, which should get stronger on larger maps, and hopefully balance out the change for Terran
This.
Chances are that if maps are bigger, expansions are a bit more more spread out. You have to remember that harrass becomes so much more effective the more spread out the opponent is.
Especially against protoss. Remember: a split protoss army is a dead protoss army.
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On February 05 2011 06:13 sadyque wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 06:00 PredY wrote:i still find it funny people actually think terran is "weaker" after 10 or so minutes. that's just ridiculous. marine/marauder gives you edge in early/mid game. what do you expect when you don't win right away, that you can combat collosi/HTs with mainy T1 and T1.5 units? get real. how about trying to play to terran late game strengs as well - mech/air tech. the thing that it's not yet figured out doesn't mean "oohh terran won't win anything on big maps". cut the crap already, seriously getting sick of it. [ + Show Spoiler +QUOTE] On February 05 2011 05:58 FabledIntegral wrote:On February 05 2011 05:50 PredY wrote:
i've been playing those big maps for some time and i can tell you, we'll see more of 2/3 base timing pushes with big upgrades
also using fast units especially hellions and medivac drops, can even see some players using speed reapers. obviously it all depend on maps layout but that is the general idea. i hope all the scv+marine bitbybits terrans and i-can-only-4gate protoss players vanish. Larger maps only decrease the effectiveness of a 4gate marginally yep, but also you can more easily scout if he is going proxy pylons, also takes more time for his gateway units to get to your base, can't put that much early pressure so you can scout more etc.. So what you are saying the 99% of pro players are stupid enough to go marine/marauder/viking in late game vs zealot/stalker/collosi and they should try tanks and bc/banshee? Really? I would love to see one try. And what are you talking about 4 gate scouting ??? How is it easier to scout a proxy pylon that can hide anywhere on a larger map or the 4 gate or what? And how exactly does it take more time for his units to get to your base if they warp in shit at a PROXY pylon (proxy!=in-base-500squares-away-pylon)
ok i'll try to explain and not argue since you're probably looking forward to it. i said gateway units, those are the first units that come out until you research warpgate tech. those units are later at your base, means more breathing room. every player now should tell when a protoss is going 4gate anyway so i kinda meant it like terrible protoss players. well top players that go marine marauder viking know how to play that and know they can get big advantage/win right away until deadly storm or mass collosi come, but most players dont know that and then die to collosi/ht and whine about balance.
and i HOPE we won't see MMM viking in the future, because i don't know about you, but i don't watch GSL TvP because it's so fucking boring, unless MVP is playing because you can tell he knows what he is doing, but watching others play and also watching all the protoss failing as well, that's just painful. i just hope we will see more of a mech play because it's more fun to watch
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Terran wins a lot as is. And big maps allow for faster expansions with good harass. Last time I checked getting a bunch of orbital commands was a good thing. The only thing it should affect is early ground rushes, excluding proxy and warp-gate rushes.
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If your worried about macro games not possible for tvz/tvp watch Gisado's on the new GSL maps. Terrans are winning just fine in macro games. If you play for the macro game you'll realize terran can do it just like the other races without being "behind".
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On February 05 2011 06:28 Wrongspeedy wrote:
Last time I checked getting a bunch of orbital commands was a good thing.
There's this, too. There's nothing that says that terrans can't be a bit more creative with their macro.
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On February 05 2011 06:24 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 06:16 PredY wrote:On February 05 2011 06:08 kodas wrote:On February 05 2011 06:00 PredY wrote:i still find it funny people actually think terran is "weaker" after 10 or so minutes. that's just ridiculous. marine/marauder gives you edge in early/mid game. what do you expect when you don't win right away, that you can combat collosi/HTs with mainy T1 and T1.5 units? get real. how about trying to play to terran late game strengs as well - mech/air tech. the thing that it's not yet figured out doesn't mean "oohh terran won't win anything on big maps". cut the crap already, seriously getting sick of it. On February 05 2011 05:58 FabledIntegral wrote:On February 05 2011 05:50 PredY wrote:
i've been playing those big maps for some time and i can tell you, we'll see more of 2/3 base timing pushes with big upgrades
also using fast units especially hellions and medivac drops, can even see some players using speed reapers. obviously it all depend on maps layout but that is the general idea. i hope all the scv+marine bitbybits terrans and i-can-only-4gate protoss players vanish. Larger maps only decrease the effectiveness of a 4gate marginally. yep, but also you can more easily scout if he is going proxy pylons, also takes more time for his gateway units to get to your base, can't put that much early pressure so you can scout more etc.. This is so bias, it gave me aids. I don't think you understand the fundamental reasoning behind going MMM, Terran's need it to survive the mid game. It gives us the ability to pressure and keep expanding keeping the game on an even footing. If you go straight mech from the start you will die to most common col/stalker midgames or you are force to turtle with tanks and then the Protoss will just out macro you. If you try at any point to trans from bio to mech, the Protoss will kill you. my 2 cents prolly just as bias well...yes that's what i meant. you use your early/mid game strenght = MMM, then transition into late game strenght = mech/air. or straight away mech with good upgrades could work as well i feel kinda like in bw with fast 3base fast armory upgrades but that's for another topic. btw i'm terran as well, no bias, but kinda annoyed by all the arguments about terran being weak lategame Thats where the problem is tho man, How do you transfer from a 6 rax/1 Fact/2 Starport into a full mech build??? Are you going to spend another 1000/500 on production buildings? where are you going to fit everything?
yep mate that's the problem indeed. as i said, it's not figured out yet. i still believe you can do very well with just 3 OR 4rax tops + a factory + port, until you take your 3rd and then transition. obviously on maps like taldarim altar it's easier to take third, and there are only 2 chokes that you can acutally defend well with bunkers, if you try to really be in your opponent's face you don't need more than 3 or 4 rax and you can use those to wall chokes later on etc. tho i'm still not sure about when to get upgrades for your mech, tho it's definately cool to have some marauders all the time to drop them and kill buildings, if you find good timings to kill protoss tech buildings your transition will be much smoother. just some thoughts.
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On February 05 2011 06:25 PredY wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 06:13 sadyque wrote:On February 05 2011 06:00 PredY wrote:i still find it funny people actually think terran is "weaker" after 10 or so minutes. that's just ridiculous. marine/marauder gives you edge in early/mid game. what do you expect when you don't win right away, that you can combat collosi/HTs with mainy T1 and T1.5 units? get real. how about trying to play to terran late game strengs as well - mech/air tech. the thing that it's not yet figured out doesn't mean "oohh terran won't win anything on big maps". cut the crap already, seriously getting sick of it. [ + Show Spoiler +QUOTE] On February 05 2011 05:58 FabledIntegral wrote:On February 05 2011 05:50 PredY wrote:
i've been playing those big maps for some time and i can tell you, we'll see more of 2/3 base timing pushes with big upgrades
also using fast units especially hellions and medivac drops, can even see some players using speed reapers. obviously it all depend on maps layout but that is the general idea. i hope all the scv+marine bitbybits terrans and i-can-only-4gate protoss players vanish. Larger maps only decrease the effectiveness of a 4gate marginally yep, but also you can more easily scout if he is going proxy pylons, also takes more time for his gateway units to get to your base, can't put that much early pressure so you can scout more etc.. So what you are saying the 99% of pro players are stupid enough to go marine/marauder/viking in late game vs zealot/stalker/collosi and they should try tanks and bc/banshee? Really? I would love to see one try. And what are you talking about 4 gate scouting ??? How is it easier to scout a proxy pylon that can hide anywhere on a larger map or the 4 gate or what? And how exactly does it take more time for his units to get to your base if they warp in shit at a PROXY pylon (proxy!=in-base-500squares-away-pylon) ok i'll try to explain and not argue since you're probably looking forward to it. i said gateway units, those are the first units that come out until you research warpgate tech. those units are later at your base, means more breathing room. every player now should tell when a protoss is going 4gate anyway so i kinda meant it like terrible protoss players. well top players that go marine marauder viking know how to play that and know they can get big advantage/win right away until deadly storm or mass collosi come, but most players dont know that and then die to collosi/ht and whine about balance. and i HOPE we won't see MMM viking in the future, because i don't know about you, but i don't watch GSL TvP because it's so fucking boring, unless MVP is playing because you can tell he knows what he is doing, but watching others play and also watching all the protoss failing as well, that's just painful. i just hope we will see more of a mech play because it's more fun to watch
I dont want to argue at all . I have seen you play and i know you are actually pretty good whereas im not even close to you ...
Maybe you have 5-6 seconds more to prepare for the 4 gate cuz of the late units but thats it...maybe. Scouting is the same on any map size anyways so its up to the players to see the strat.
Its not like i want to see mmm viking every god damn time vs toss ;( I want to see a lot of different stuff just like you. I just never seen it work consistently and my opinion is we wont see it on whatever sized maps...
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On February 05 2011 05:44 love.less wrote:
your basing this of your own experiences of course but i for one dont rely on "1 or 2 base plays" with "most of my strength coming in early game". terran have some of the best tools for long macro games on bigger maps.. seige tanks, sensor towers, planetary fortress, very cost efficient drop play capability to name just a few.
i think the real problem lies in the mentality passed on by a lot of current "pros" who use early aggression on few bases to cover up the lack of macro managment they have and hopefully bigger maps will seperate the few terrans, in my eyes, that are actually good starcraft players from the many who just seem to be good at taking advantage of the chances they are given due to the current map pool
QFT. There's a reason why pro Terrans like IMMVP seem so scary good; it's because he isn't reliant on 1-2 base early game strategies. Sure, we see it from time to time, but players of that calibre have a much more rounded and solid understanding of the race, which allows them to compete where these 1-2 basers end up failing.
Just one example: when and how to take a third base as Terran. 1-2 basers don't know because they almost never take a third, and in the rare chance they do (i.e. their 1-2 base play has failed), they get stomped. Leads these kinds of Terrans to have the wrong mentality, "Terran can't take a third because we lose when we try!"
I used to get stomped in TvZ because I always tried for the macro game instead of gimmicky things like cliff drops or 1-2 base all-ins. Now I find myself slowly evening out in the matchup as I begin to understand what's needed to play a macro game against Zerg. I'm currently experimenting with lots of turrets + turret upgrades when I encounter mutalisks (i.e. 99% of my TvZ games). Seems to be working out for me so far.
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