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I really cannot understand all the theory crafting and internet wars on this thread .
simple facts are : on gisado maps the winning precentage of races on the new VERY big maps
is around 50%.
farther more the new ladder maps are on ptr , blizz will check the race satistics before moving the maps into the ladder , and i am pretty sure they will not release a map in which terran cannot win .
team gsl start today , if you like me and not experianced / gifted enough to figure solutions on your own , lets watch and see how the pro's do it .
just really simple truth is if you cannot find a solution to a problem , it doesnt mean there isnt one .
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Saw a comment earlier in the thread that tier 1 or 1.5 units have uses in the late game.
Examples given were lings once they get movement and attack speed upgrades, zealots with charge, etc.
I think this is one issue with T. They don't have late game unit specific upgrades.
I'll throw out some suggestions:
Something out of fusion core that improves thor move speed. Helps T mobility, but if you are heavy mech, you need to go down the entire air tech tree to get it.
Another suggestion would be something that halves tank siege/unsiege time.
I'm not sure what it would be, but you could have something bio related that you research from the ghost academy that requires a fusion core. Something to keep late game bio a little more useful.
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On February 08 2011 00:05 Phillydilly wrote:
Saw a comment earlier in the thread that tier 1 or 1.5 units have uses in the late game.
Examples given were lings once they get movement and attack speed upgrades, zealots with charge, etc.
I think this is one issue with T. They don't have late game unit specific upgrades.
I'll throw out some suggestions:
Something out of fusion core that improves thor move speed. Helps T mobility, but if you are heavy mech, you need to go down the entire air tech tree to get it.
Another suggestion would be something that halves tank siege/unsiege time.
I'm not sure what it would be, but you could have something bio related that you research from the ghost academy that requires a fusion core. Something to keep late game bio a little more useful.
Not sure if you are trolling or not but if you dont you realize bio also gets upgrades and stim/medivacs makes them super-mobile. Terran tier 1-1.5 is probably the most useful of any races, how many games isn't the terran massing bio all game, even in the late game it's their core units + Show Spoiler +(even in the GSTL played today on huge maps mmm was almost exclusively used).
Terran already got late-game upgrades which probably isnt used enough like hunter seeker missile, yamato cannon and thor cannon. I don't understand your reasoning behind adding more.
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On February 05 2011 06:30 PredY wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 06:24 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 05 2011 06:16 PredY wrote:On February 05 2011 06:08 kodas wrote:On February 05 2011 06:00 PredY wrote:i still find it funny people actually think terran is "weaker" after 10 or so minutes. that's just ridiculous. marine/marauder gives you edge in early/mid game. what do you expect when you don't win right away, that you can combat collosi/HTs with mainy T1 and T1.5 units? get real. how about trying to play to terran late game strengs as well - mech/air tech. the thing that it's not yet figured out doesn't mean "oohh terran won't win anything on big maps". cut the crap already, seriously getting sick of it. On February 05 2011 05:58 FabledIntegral wrote:On February 05 2011 05:50 PredY wrote:
i've been playing those big maps for some time and i can tell you, we'll see more of 2/3 base timing pushes with big upgrades
also using fast units especially hellions and medivac drops, can even see some players using speed reapers. obviously it all depend on maps layout but that is the general idea. i hope all the scv+marine bitbybits terrans and i-can-only-4gate protoss players vanish. Larger maps only decrease the effectiveness of a 4gate marginally. yep, but also you can more easily scout if he is going proxy pylons, also takes more time for his gateway units to get to your base, can't put that much early pressure so you can scout more etc.. This is so bias, it gave me aids. I don't think you understand the fundamental reasoning behind going MMM, Terran's need it to survive the mid game. It gives us the ability to pressure and keep expanding keeping the game on an even footing. If you go straight mech from the start you will die to most common col/stalker midgames or you are force to turtle with tanks and then the Protoss will just out macro you. If you try at any point to trans from bio to mech, the Protoss will kill you. my 2 cents prolly just as bias  well...yes that's what i meant. you use your early/mid game strenght = MMM, then transition into late game strenght = mech/air. or straight away mech with good upgrades could work as well i feel kinda like in bw with fast 3base fast armory upgrades but that's for another topic. btw i'm terran as well, no bias, but kinda annoyed by all the arguments about terran being weak lategame  Thats where the problem is tho man, How do you transfer from a 6 rax/1 Fact/2 Starport into a full mech build??? Are you going to spend another 1000/500 on production buildings? where are you going to fit everything? yep mate that's the problem indeed. as i said, it's not figured out yet. i still believe you can do very well with just 3 OR 4rax tops + a factory + port, until you take your 3rd and then transition. obviously on maps like taldarim altar it's easier to take third, and there are only 2 chokes that you can acutally defend well with bunkers, if you try to really be in your opponent's face you don't need more than 3 or 4 rax and you can use those to wall chokes later on etc. tho i'm still not sure about when to get upgrades for your mech, tho it's definately cool to have some marauders all the time to drop them and kill buildings, if you find good timings to kill protoss tech buildings your transition will be much smoother. just some thoughts.
+ Show Spoiler +sorry gotta quote myself here, seems like MVP is reading my posts! lol no j/k obv
SET 8 GSTL finals MVP vs Squirtle
as you can see, on a good map with fast 3base you can get bio for harass, MVP doing drops all over the place, even sniping templar archives, while getting his mech army. A mistake was not good enough upgrades for MVP because 2-0 vs 3/3 toss is not what you want, also would love to see a bit more hellions running around the map (obviously VERY hard since protoss had blink). otherwise best SC2 game i've ever seen definately the way i want TvP to go, i almost cried even tho MVP lost it was so fcking sick.
edit: oh and ghosts would do a lot of work too
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On February 10 2011 21:24 PredY wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 06:30 PredY wrote:On February 05 2011 06:24 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 05 2011 06:16 PredY wrote:On February 05 2011 06:08 kodas wrote:On February 05 2011 06:00 PredY wrote:i still find it funny people actually think terran is "weaker" after 10 or so minutes. that's just ridiculous. marine/marauder gives you edge in early/mid game. what do you expect when you don't win right away, that you can combat collosi/HTs with mainy T1 and T1.5 units? get real. how about trying to play to terran late game strengs as well - mech/air tech. the thing that it's not yet figured out doesn't mean "oohh terran won't win anything on big maps". cut the crap already, seriously getting sick of it. On February 05 2011 05:58 FabledIntegral wrote:On February 05 2011 05:50 PredY wrote:
i've been playing those big maps for some time and i can tell you, we'll see more of 2/3 base timing pushes with big upgrades
also using fast units especially hellions and medivac drops, can even see some players using speed reapers. obviously it all depend on maps layout but that is the general idea. i hope all the scv+marine bitbybits terrans and i-can-only-4gate protoss players vanish. Larger maps only decrease the effectiveness of a 4gate marginally. yep, but also you can more easily scout if he is going proxy pylons, also takes more time for his gateway units to get to your base, can't put that much early pressure so you can scout more etc.. This is so bias, it gave me aids. I don't think you understand the fundamental reasoning behind going MMM, Terran's need it to survive the mid game. It gives us the ability to pressure and keep expanding keeping the game on an even footing. If you go straight mech from the start you will die to most common col/stalker midgames or you are force to turtle with tanks and then the Protoss will just out macro you. If you try at any point to trans from bio to mech, the Protoss will kill you. my 2 cents prolly just as bias well...yes that's what i meant. you use your early/mid game strenght = MMM, then transition into late game strenght = mech/air. or straight away mech with good upgrades could work as well i feel kinda like in bw with fast 3base fast armory upgrades but that's for another topic. btw i'm terran as well, no bias, but kinda annoyed by all the arguments about terran being weak lategame Thats where the problem is tho man, How do you transfer from a 6 rax/1 Fact/2 Starport into a full mech build??? Are you going to spend another 1000/500 on production buildings? where are you going to fit everything? yep mate that's the problem indeed. as i said, it's not figured out yet. i still believe you can do very well with just 3 OR 4rax tops + a factory + port, until you take your 3rd and then transition. obviously on maps like taldarim altar it's easier to take third, and there are only 2 chokes that you can acutally defend well with bunkers, if you try to really be in your opponent's face you don't need more than 3 or 4 rax and you can use those to wall chokes later on etc. tho i'm still not sure about when to get upgrades for your mech, tho it's definately cool to have some marauders all the time to drop them and kill buildings, if you find good timings to kill protoss tech buildings your transition will be much smoother. just some thoughts. + Show Spoiler +sorry gotta quote myself here, seems like MVP is reading my posts! lol no j/k obv
SET 8 GSTL finals MVP vs Squirtle
as you can see, on a good map with fast 3base you can get bio for harass, MVP doing drops all over the place, even sniping templar archives, while getting his mech army. A mistake was not good enough upgrades for MVP because 2-0 vs 3/3 toss is not what you want, also would love to see a bit more hellions running around the map (obviously VERY hard since protoss had blink). otherwise best SC2 game i've ever seen definately the way i want TvP to go, i almost cried even tho MVP lost it was so fcking sick.
+ Show Spoiler +yeah, thats something you can build on, for instance also adding ghosts, image if he had ghosts, or ravens with hsm etc. spellcaster are necessary in the lategame IMO
there is so much unexplored stuff on the terran side, just cause it wasn't needed until now
so bigger maps are going to force it imo.
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Just a note PredY that your above post counts as a GSTL spoiler. So fix that. But, referring to that thing you just wrote...
SPOILER WARNING!
+ Show Spoiler +Whilst it's east (fun too!) to backseat general, yeah it's quite possible bio into mech transitions might be the TvP strategy on the new larger more macro favourable maps. Pure bio suffers when the protoss death ball just becomes too varied and economically fuelled to be combatted with MMM+ ghost and/or viking so our only possible alternative is heavy mech usage. Pure mech, I dunno, but definitely more factories being planted. Also note that I kinda think MVP could have slotted in some ghosts to flesh that out a bit better, particularly against the mship and the immortals, which both pose huge threats to the heavier mech stylings, but that's just shabby speculation on an otherwise amazing fucking game from the best SC2 series we've seen so far.
It's funny, SC2 is becoming more like it's predecessor every few months it seems.
Oh, and 4gate will never die. That I definitely predict! Unless they change a huge fundamental of the game, like some sort of range restriction on warpgates warp in radius (or something else similar, not saying that they should!) then there's no reason that shifty little gateway timing attacks like 4 gate or 3 gate FE or 1 gate FE, 6 gate timing should ever really fall out of style. And that's ok.
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I think the new maps are way too young. If anything happens then a new era for Terrans is on its way where they have to play the game straight up to the end. Protoss and Zerg have been trying to do that against Terran since the start of the game. So I dont see how exactly it should be different for Terrans now.
I can tell you right now that Jinro will do good, because he never feared the lategame against any race. The amount of effort he puts into mid to lategame is what sadly most other Terrans lack. There is alot more to the race than just emp, stim 1a. Yes the moment will come when Terran have to techswitch as much as the other two races.
I have absolutely no doubts that Terran will do good and that some people will realise that their gameplan has to change. That's why we want these new maps in the first place.
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