|
On February 05 2011 22:10 Mercury- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 22:04 ibreakurface wrote:On February 05 2011 05:17 Bagi wrote: : how much terran actually relies on 1-2 base plays and constant harass to win their games. Then dont rely on 1-2 base plays. It's not like terran is bad at macro, it's just their all in strats are fast and easy ways to win as terran if the map allows it. Terran could easily be a turtle race like in BW. Except that tanks cost more and do less now, spider mines are gone and vikings are more expensive goliaths with less armor. It's a different game sweetheart. Why does everyone assume terran can't turtle?
|
On February 05 2011 05:17 Bagi wrote: But at the same time I feel theres something people do not consider: how much terran actually relies on 1-2 base plays and constant harass to win their games. That is EXACTLY why almost EVERYONE wants bigger maps. Generally games with more than 1-2 bases are more exciting because we get more action time instead of early game. Also, your argument is chicken-or-egg. Terrans rely on 1-2 base pushes BECAUSE they are so strong on current maps, not because the race will be too weak if we get bigger and better maps.
Watch the latest game Idra vs MVP on Artosis YouTube. Wouldn't you rather watch games like that instead of 1-2 base near all-ins? Well then, we need more maps as big (or slightly bigger) as Shakuras Plateau.
|
I think players will also adapt and develop new strategies with the tools that are given to them. Every time a patch change occurs or a new map arrives, there is very little certainty at first. But over time, people devise powerful strategies, and if it turns out that those strategies cause a racial imbalance, then changes need to be made.
Bigger maps might be harder for Terran to adjust to than the other races at first, but players will inevitably create new styles of play which work, and if one of the new big maps shows a significant win rate for a certain race, then we can say it is "imbalanced."
The real issue is allowing enough time for strategies to develop, rather than changing everything as soon as somebody exploits some new build. Look at the 7rr or the 2 rax scv all-in or the 4-gate. Everyone screamed imbalance when these strategies arose but over time they adjusted and found solutions. The same principle can be applied to new maps. Let's try some bigger maps and give them some time. If we find that they are imbalanced then lets fix them or get rid of them.
|
I think on a larger map people might be able to switch up unit comps for terran. On larger maps adding more tanks, thors and banshees with become much more common. A lot of terran play right now is base off of early mid game, but I think terran has the units to go for mid game if they just add in a lot more of those units.
|
@OP: Terran didn't have any trouble att all to drop harass in SC:BW and I don't see harass being any more difficult on larger maps. What you are talking about is the time for the first banshee/hellion to reach the enemy base. Terran has to re-think their game style and create new timings and strategies. I think hellions will become the pillar of Terran on larger maps, just like vultures are in SC:BW. Larger maps also means it is harder to defend all locations and to spot an incomming drop.
|
God I hope that big maps move Terran from general purpose do everything race to actually having a lock down the map and push slowly style. I don't know if that's possible because the entire reason that style was successful in BW in TvT and TvP was down to spider mines being great at controlling space.
I really miss there being units that were capable of controlling space, with lurkers and spider mines, I thought with the force field protoss would have a similar ability but now they're the only ones who can do it and they're probably the race who need it least due to warp-in and their reasonable mobility.
|
Did you know that 2 siege tanks which are clumped up lose against a single colossus if they start attacking at the same time?
Says everything about siege tank damage against armored units.
edit: Imo reduce splash and increase damage against armored.
|
On February 06 2011 03:48 Bommes wrote: Did you know that 2 siege tanks which are clumped up lose against a single colossus if they start attacking at the same time?
Says everything about siege tank damage against armored units.
edit: Imo reduce splash and increase damage against armored.
If you unsiege your tanks it reduces their splash and increases their damage to armoured!
|
Big maps = macro games. I dont see terran being able to compete against Z and P on the bigger maps unless they make thors air dmg same for armored as light and buff the tank back to 50 dmg.
|
On February 06 2011 03:52 philcorp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2011 03:48 Bommes wrote: Did you know that 2 siege tanks which are clumped up lose against a single colossus if they start attacking at the same time?
Says everything about siege tank damage against armored units.
edit: Imo reduce splash and increase damage against armored. If you unsiege your tanks it reduces their splash and increases their damage to armoured!
By the time you unsieged your tanks they are already dead against the colossus. I know that unsieged dps against armored is pretty good. But sieged DPS against armored is really really bad for their mobility, while splash is too good against zerglings/banelings/marines even in small tank numbers. And a stimmed marauder does every little thing better than an unsieged tank.
It's just already really really hard to hold a position with tanks under 160 supply, if maps get bigger it will be nearly impossible and you won't see a lot of tank play even in TvT.
I'm not saying that terran will be bad on large maps, because that's not the case, but tanks will be very hard to pull off properly.
|
On February 05 2011 22:13 Shikyo wrote: Not to mention that you don't really need more than 50 workers as T because of mules, and that you can get in under 15 minutes.
So, you're trying to say that Terran only need 2 saturated bases?
Wouldn't that imply that they are disadvantaged on larger maps, as they wouldn't make the workers necessary to take advantage of more bases?
(I personally don't believe that's the case. I also don't believe that Terran only needs 50 workers.)
|
On February 05 2011 20:51 Karn3 wrote:I watched a VOD the other of Idra V MVP on shakuras (biggest map in the pool atm) and it think it shows exactly how a terran should play on a big map and how zerg should respond. Its also an AMAZING game and well worth a watch for sheer entertainment value if nothing else. There is always something that is happening, the multitasking on both parts is simply mind boggling. Its also a really close game, i couldn't tell whow as going to win until the last 5 minutes or so of the near 40 minute game. http://www.justin.tv/24california/b/278893657
MVP would have been better served just a-moving up Idra's ramp at the 9:20 minute mark. 6 lings, 1 spine crawler, 1 queen would not have done much to 30 food of marine/marauder. I think that was an excellent demonstration of how despite amazing harass by MVP, Terran still struggles in the post-infestor late game. (Not to deride Idra's play, or anything - his control and macro was solid.)
Idra himself said about it: "Early game luck. If marine/marauder attacked, I woulda died."
Mods: Apologies for double post... I didn't realise it at the time.
|
Terran will adapt; we have through all the patches.
I actually perfer a macro game my self(I play Terran) even if things do get a bit tricky in the midgame with Zerg and the endgame with Protoss.
We NEED to come away from with onebase/allin style that has been so rampant if we want the game to survive and have the longevity that Brood War did.
How long do you really think one/twobase plays will continue to stay fun for both the spectator AND the player?
No, Terrans will adapt like we always have. Going towards bigger maps is only a good thing, even for us Terran players. If there's anything broken, it will be patched; until then practice makes perfect. Get off your allins and start really playing the game
|
It's pretty sad when you get to count all-ins as part of the process of balancing the meta game, dude.
|
On February 06 2011 06:03 danielsan wrote: It's pretty sad when you get to count all-ins as part of the process of balancing the meta game, dude. None of the strategies I listed are all-ins.
Theres a difference between an all-in and early harass/aggressive play being viable.
|
i'm totally ok with your point, makes total sense. i was talking to moosesoup and his steering away from all-ins as if they were some kind of strategy. and more than that, as if they were terran specific.
|
lol these news made me QQ the whole day :D :D :D I hope my all-ins dont become obsolete, because I am one of those soulless people who all-in every single game... Hmmm
|
On February 06 2011 06:52 DestroManiak wrote: lol these news made me QQ the whole day :D :D :D I hope my all-ins dont become obsolete, because I am one of those soulless people who all-in every single game... Hmmm
Yeah they will so you will probably fall down a rank or 2 if you rely on all ins to win any games. Can't wait till that comes hopefully then being in masters league half of them don't' all in -_-.
|
Macro terrans are scary. Everytime something dies, it's already replaced. What's scarrier is when terrans mix in more mech and turtle perfectly, so they'll never lose economy. But i'm sure the more creative players will be able to get thru the turtle to get some damage done . But a super push 3 base 200/200 terran is definitely going to be scary.
|
On February 06 2011 06:56 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2011 06:52 DestroManiak wrote: lol these news made me QQ the whole day :D :D :D I hope my all-ins dont become obsolete, because I am one of those soulless people who all-in every single game... Hmmm Yeah they will so you will probably fall down a rank or 2 if you rely on all ins to win any games. Can't wait till that comes hopefully then being in masters league half of them don't' all in -_-.
Hmm maybe 4 gate all in could be a viable option for me :D Because that ignores distance right?
|
|
|
|