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[D] Terran play in bigger maps? - Page 2

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PredY
Profile Joined September 2009
Czech Republic1731 Posts
February 04 2011 20:50 GMT
#21
i've been playing those big maps for some time and i can tell you, we'll see more of 2/3 base timing pushes with big upgrades
also using fast units especially hellions and medivac drops, can even see some players using speed reapers. obviously it all depend on maps layout but that is the general idea. i hope all the scv+marine bitbybits terrans and i-can-only-4gate protoss players vanish.
http://www.twitch.tv/czelpredy
Chise
Profile Joined December 2010
Japan507 Posts
February 04 2011 20:51 GMT
#22
On February 05 2011 05:49 skeldark wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2011 05:46 Chise wrote:
On February 05 2011 05:39 Zrana wrote:
Jinro.


Well, this is pretty much the answer.
The main problem I see is that most Terrans don't even try to play Macro games. Obviously, if only one out of 10 games you play is a Macro game, you will lose to people who play Macro games as often as they can, simply because they are more experienced.


post like this and the 1 just shows that you (me) waste your time here.
you really think a master t never played a macro game? never tryed it allways go allin in every game?

i really think a discussion over any kind of game strategie about sc2 is not possible on tl,
signing out...


Did you even read my post?
I never said that a Master T never played a Macro game. But I'm pretty sure there are some (maybe even a lot?) of Master Terrans out there who prefer 1 or 2 Base play. This means, they are less experienced in long Macro games. It's as simple as that.
Somoner
Profile Joined December 2010
United States4 Posts
February 04 2011 20:51 GMT
#23
You seem to think larger maps make drops/banshee harass harder. Larger maps wont necessarily make it harder. If anything, it may make it better at certain times because of the fact that the opponents army (if not in a super defensive position inside the base) will have to move further to come to the rescue of a base being dropped, or they will have to invest more in static defense the more they expand, meaning their army size will be smaller, still giving you the ability to move around the map easier.
Treemonkeys
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2082 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-04 20:53:21
February 04 2011 20:52 GMT
#24
On February 05 2011 05:43 Bagi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2011 05:39 Zrana wrote:
Jinro.

Believe me, Jinro is an inspiration. But not even pros can seem replicate his strategies.

Even Jinro does lot of banshee play and other smart harass in his matchups. All of it will be harder to execute with larger maps.


What makes you think they can't replicate his strategies? You know they have tried? You know they even want to?

It will be interesting to see how it plays out, but I don't think a terran macro style is out of the question on huge maps. They way I see it zerg can drone up all he wants, he still is not going to offensively attack a 200/200 terran army. Meanwhile terran can slow push around the map to take base after base, putting PFs and turrets all over, then eventually stacking up production facilities before pushing.

Currently it's just that terran is so powerful at winning a shorter game, they have little incentive to even try to drag the game out and still have an advantage.
http://shroomspiration.blogspot.com/
XXXSmOke
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
United States1333 Posts
February 04 2011 20:52 GMT
#25
On February 05 2011 05:46 Chise wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2011 05:39 Zrana wrote:
Jinro.


Well, this is pretty much the answer.
The main problem I see is that most Terrans don't even try to play Macro games. Obviously, if only one out of 10 games you play is a Macro game, you will lose to people who play Macro games as often as they can, simply because they are more experienced.


Do you really think thats good logic?? Every T just decides to not play a macro game??

Theres a reason why we 1/2 base attack, because every T knows that as the game goes longer the chances of winning grow shorter.

This has been discussed to death, but the point is now that the discussion and debate over the past few months has become a reality as the new PTR is showing what maps are to come.
Emperor? Boxer disapproves. He's building bunkers at your mom's house even as you're reading this.
sadyque
Profile Joined April 2010
Romania251 Posts
February 04 2011 20:52 GMT
#26
On February 05 2011 05:44 love.less wrote:
your basing this of your own experiences of course but i for one dont rely on "1 or 2 base plays" with "most of my strength coming in early game". terran have some of the best tools for long macro games on bigger maps.. seige tanks, sensor towers, planetary fortress, very cost efficient drop play capability to name just a few.

i think the real problem lies in the mentality passed on by a lot of current "pros" who use early aggressive on few bases to cover up the lack of macro managment they have and hopefully bigger maps will seperate the few terrans, in my eyes, that are actually good starcraft players from the many who just seem to be good at taking advantage of the chances they are given due to the current map pool

I have no idea why you guys think pro terran players cant macro.
MarineKing never won/lost a game in GSL before 3 bases. IMMvP has some of the most awesome macro out there. Jinro went for macro games vs Idra. The best part of Sjow's play is his macro(and game sense -.-).
Good terrans CAN macro. Crap players (zerg protoss or terran) CANT macro. It has nothing to do with the maps.
The one thing terrans cant do is warp in crap anywhere or have awesome mobility like the zerg army. And dont say medivacs. They were good when they were faster. Now sometimes is better to move ur shit on the ground , w8 for the medivac then load and drop...
I do agree that terran is stronger in the first 10 minutes of the game mostly because of the short rush distances and crappy all ins with scvs...But after 10 minutes we are screwed. I believe that after a few months (when protoss and zerg learn how to use the map distances..cuz they dont now) terrans will be screwed big time.
60 bucks? But it has Kerrigans Boobs in three god damn dimensions. Do you know how long i have waited for this?
Bagi
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6799 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-04 20:57:12
February 04 2011 20:53 GMT
#27
On February 05 2011 05:51 Somoner wrote:
You seem to think larger maps make drops/banshee harass harder. Larger maps wont necessarily make it harder. If anything, it may make it better at certain times because of the fact that the opponents army (if not in a super defensive position inside the base) will have to move further to come to the rescue of a base being dropped, or they will have to invest more in static defense the more they expand, meaning their army size will be smaller, still giving you the ability to move around the map easier.

This is true, and I tried to address it towards the end of my post, not very clearly though. Still, its a lategame thing.

The current early game harass that aims for a lead however will be much less efficient. And its one of the more important things in the current terran play.
infinity21 *
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada6683 Posts
February 04 2011 20:54 GMT
#28
I think new strategies may be designed to combat zerg's economy. Things like 4 oc builds may become more popular.

However, warpgate technology allows 4 gates to be just as strong on bigger maps which means Terran has to spend just as much on their defense. I think this us fundamentally flawed and you can't really have maps of varying rush distances. Maybe the only upside is that robo and stargate units come a bit later but those can be proxied as well.
Official Entusman #21
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
February 04 2011 20:58 GMT
#29
On February 05 2011 05:50 PredY wrote:
i've been playing those big maps for some time and i can tell you, we'll see more of 2/3 base timing pushes with big upgrades
also using fast units especially hellions and medivac drops, can even see some players using speed reapers. obviously it all depend on maps layout but that is the general idea. i hope all the scv+marine bitbybits terrans and i-can-only-4gate protoss players vanish.


Larger maps only decrease the effectiveness of a 4gate marginally.
PredY
Profile Joined September 2009
Czech Republic1731 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-04 21:01:36
February 04 2011 21:00 GMT
#30
i still find it funny people actually think terran is "weaker" after 10 or so minutes. that's just ridiculous. marine/marauder gives you edge in early/mid game. what do you expect when you don't win right away, that you can combat collosi/HTs with mainy T1 and T1.5 units? get real. how about trying to play to terran late game strengs as well - mech/air tech. the thing that it's not yet figured out doesn't mean "oohh terran won't win anything on big maps". cut the crap already, seriously getting sick of it.

On February 05 2011 05:58 FabledIntegral wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2011 05:50 PredY wrote:
i've been playing those big maps for some time and i can tell you, we'll see more of 2/3 base timing pushes with big upgrades
also using fast units especially hellions and medivac drops, can even see some players using speed reapers. obviously it all depend on maps layout but that is the general idea. i hope all the scv+marine bitbybits terrans and i-can-only-4gate protoss players vanish.


Larger maps only decrease the effectiveness of a 4gate marginally.


yep, but also you can more easily scout if he is going proxy pylons, also takes more time for his gateway units to get to your base, can't put that much early pressure so you can scout more etc..
http://www.twitch.tv/czelpredy
Cyanocyst
Profile Joined October 2010
2222 Posts
February 04 2011 21:00 GMT
#31
On February 05 2011 05:42 FabledIntegral wrote:
This has been discussed to death, I feel, nothing new. At the very least, Terran might be represented less in tournaments. Regardless of whether or not T is OP, I'd like to see more of a 33-33-33 distribution in tournies. This might help achieve that. It's not like Terrans are going to disappear completely with the amount of them that we have. Maybe this might cause some to even switch races, which would be awesome.



Why would it be awesome of they switched races? Most likely they would fall out of the pro scene if they did.
|| Fruit Dealer | Leenock | Yughio | Coca | Sniper | True | Solar | Dark |
freetgy
Profile Joined November 2010
1720 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-04 21:01:22
February 04 2011 21:00 GMT
#32
i think no protoss would mind a warpgate nerf, if gateways armies wouldn't suck against mid game compositions of either Zerg/Terran/Protoss.
gogogadgetflow
Profile Joined March 2010
United States2583 Posts
February 04 2011 21:01 GMT
#33
On February 05 2011 05:39 PBJ wrote:
The Terran game is all about positioning, especially in TvZ. Luckily for Terran, they have the best units for controlling space and dictating positioning in the game, along with the best static defenses. This is a huge strength for Terran that tends to get ignored.


The issue is that these strong points will get weaker on larger maps. Perhaps, as day[9] suggested, there should be some playing around with allowing maximum 300 food.

At any rate, Terran also has very strong harass options, which should get stronger on larger maps, and hopefully balance out the change for Terran
Oceaniax
Profile Joined June 2010
146 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-04 21:13:28
February 04 2011 21:06 GMT
#34
On February 05 2011 05:43 Bagi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2011 05:39 Zrana wrote:
Jinro.

Believe me, Jinro is an inspiration. But not even pros can seem replicate his strategies.

Even Jinro does lot of banshee play and other smart harass in his matchups. All of it will be harder to execute with larger maps.


As maps get bigger, units must be spread thinner to defend the wide area and more vulnerabilities open. While very, very early game harassment will likely become harder, have you considered the possibility that mid to late game harassment will become signifigantly easier for terran to exploit?

I don't think it's necessary for terran to be successful with early game gimmicky harrassments to be successful.

While i'm not accusing anyone here in particular, the amount of highly ranked people that have gotten to where they are merely because they've smoothed out some harrassment at the 6 minute mark followed up by a 1-2 base timing push is rather astounding.
dcberkeley
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada844 Posts
February 04 2011 21:06 GMT
#35
On February 05 2011 06:00 PredY wrote:
i still find it funny people actually think terran is "weaker" after 10 or so minutes. that's just ridiculous. marine/marauder gives you edge in early/mid game. what do you expect when you don't win right away, that you can combat collosi/HTs with mainy T1 and T1.5 units? get real. how about trying to play to terran late game strengs as well - mech/air tech. the thing that it's not yet figured out doesn't mean "oohh terran won't win anything on big maps". cut the crap already, seriously getting sick of it.

Show nested quote +
On February 05 2011 05:58 FabledIntegral wrote:
On February 05 2011 05:50 PredY wrote:
i've been playing those big maps for some time and i can tell you, we'll see more of 2/3 base timing pushes with big upgrades
also using fast units especially hellions and medivac drops, can even see some players using speed reapers. obviously it all depend on maps layout but that is the general idea. i hope all the scv+marine bitbybits terrans and i-can-only-4gate protoss players vanish.


Larger maps only decrease the effectiveness of a 4gate marginally.


yep, but also you can more easily scout if he is going proxy pylons, also takes more time for his gateway units to get to your base, can't put that much early pressure so you can scout more etc..

Have you tried going mech against colossus ball + HT? I would like a replay where that works.
Moktira is da bomb
DyEnasTy
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States3714 Posts
February 04 2011 21:08 GMT
#36
Does anyone else think that if Terran didnt have the nerfs blizz put on them after release that Terran would be better on larger maps? (ie tank nerf, depot before rax ect)

I think alot of the balance changes are because of the shitty maps we've been playing on. And larger maps might bring out the larger imbalances.
Much better to die an awesome Terran than to live as a magic wielding fairy or a mindless sac of biological goop. -Manifesto7
kodas
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States418 Posts
February 04 2011 21:08 GMT
#37
On February 05 2011 06:00 PredY wrote:
i still find it funny people actually think terran is "weaker" after 10 or so minutes. that's just ridiculous. marine/marauder gives you edge in early/mid game. what do you expect when you don't win right away, that you can combat collosi/HTs with mainy T1 and T1.5 units? get real. how about trying to play to terran late game strengs as well - mech/air tech. the thing that it's not yet figured out doesn't mean "oohh terran won't win anything on big maps". cut the crap already, seriously getting sick of it.

Show nested quote +
On February 05 2011 05:58 FabledIntegral wrote:
On February 05 2011 05:50 PredY wrote:
i've been playing those big maps for some time and i can tell you, we'll see more of 2/3 base timing pushes with big upgrades
also using fast units especially hellions and medivac drops, can even see some players using speed reapers. obviously it all depend on maps layout but that is the general idea. i hope all the scv+marine bitbybits terrans and i-can-only-4gate protoss players vanish.


Larger maps only decrease the effectiveness of a 4gate marginally.


yep, but also you can more easily scout if he is going proxy pylons, also takes more time for his gateway units to get to your base, can't put that much early pressure so you can scout more etc..

This is so bias, it gave me aids. I don't think you understand the fundamental reasoning behind going MMM, Terran's need it to survive the mid game. It gives us the ability to pressure and keep expanding keeping the game on an even footing. If you go straight mech from the start you will die to most common col/stalker midgames or you are force to turtle with tanks and then the Protoss will just out macro you. If you try at any point to trans from bio to mech, the Protoss will kill you. my 2 cents prolly just as bias

User was warned for this post
Get paper, fuck bitches, smoke trees, mass thors.
h0neyBadger
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
184 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-04 21:10:29
February 04 2011 21:09 GMT
#38
On February 05 2011 06:00 PredY wrote:
i still find it funny people actually think terran is "weaker" after 10 or so minutes. that's just ridiculous. marine/marauder gives you edge in early/mid game. what do you expect when you don't win right away, that you can combat collosi/HTs with mainy T1 and T1.5 units? get real. how about trying to play to terran late game strengs as well - mech/air tech. the thing that it's not yet figured out doesn't mean "oohh terran won't win anything on big maps". cut the crap already, seriously getting sick of it.


sums it up quite well for me.

the game has to evolve, we have had small maps for long enough now, im interested to see how things will change on the larger maps.
dekuschrub
Profile Joined May 2008
United States2069 Posts
February 04 2011 21:10 GMT
#39
there is a huge misconception that terran can't macro

against zerg yeah you dont wanna get in a worker building contest, but even then, builds that pressure while you take a fast 3rd and get up to like 180-200 with marine/tank/thor are completely awesome. yeah you can't win with 2 rax or other pressure builds, but the bigger maps will just reward players who can transition into a longterm plan more, rather than just making it so that terran can basically win/get a gigantic lead in the stupidly close positions on like metal.
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
February 04 2011 21:10 GMT
#40
On February 05 2011 06:00 PredY wrote:
i still find it funny people actually think terran is "weaker" after 10 or so minutes. that's just ridiculous. marine/marauder gives you edge in early/mid game. what do you expect when you don't win right away, that you can combat collosi/HTs with mainy T1 and T1.5 units? get real. how about trying to play to terran late game strengs as well - mech/air tech. the thing that it's not yet figured out doesn't mean "oohh terran won't win anything on big maps". cut the crap already, seriously getting sick of it.

Show nested quote +
On February 05 2011 05:58 FabledIntegral wrote:
On February 05 2011 05:50 PredY wrote:
i've been playing those big maps for some time and i can tell you, we'll see more of 2/3 base timing pushes with big upgrades
also using fast units especially hellions and medivac drops, can even see some players using speed reapers. obviously it all depend on maps layout but that is the general idea. i hope all the scv+marine bitbybits terrans and i-can-only-4gate protoss players vanish.


Larger maps only decrease the effectiveness of a 4gate marginally.


yep, but also you can more easily scout if he is going proxy pylons, also takes more time for his gateway units to get to your base, can't put that much early pressure so you can scout more etc..


Haha hence the marginally part.
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