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If you have criticism, you need to address the content, not the hosts. Idra and Artosis are 2 (1.5) Zerg players, but you can't point that out and then blanket them as biased. Respond to the content.
You can't tell them to "get 2 Terran and Protoss players". That's fucking obtuse advice. "Yo just get 4 more high level players to record with you." Yes, I think everyone sees the value in getting it, but it's not practical.
Respond to the content and use evidence / logic to back up your claims. |
On February 07 2011 17:46 thesums wrote:
P.S.:
a) I still dont own the game.
b) Why shouldnt I talk about it when the "mistakes in the discussion" (focusing on the wrong target) are so blatantly obvious? It is just some common sense that is needed to understand.
Wait, wait, wait... You don't even own a game that you're arguing balance about? Jeez man, you just discredited everything you have said in this thread, theory-craft is easy, putting practical use to you'r "words of wisdom" is a whole other story. I'm not going to share my opinions only because it's a lost cause but I was shocked that you're so sure of you'r opinions and they hold no weight unless you have actually played the game.
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On February 08 2011 00:07 ckw wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2011 17:46 thesums wrote:
P.S.:
a) I still dont own the game.
b) Why shouldnt I talk about it when the "mistakes in the discussion" (focusing on the wrong target) are so blatantly obvious? It is just some common sense that is needed to understand.
Wait, wait, wait... You don't even own a game that you're arguing balance about? Jeez man, you just discredited everything you have said in this thread, theory-craft is easy, putting practical use to you'r "words of wisdom" is a whole other story. I'm not going to share my opinions only because it's a lost cause but I was shocked that you're so sure of you'r opinions and they hold no weight unless you have actually played the game.
If thesums doesn't get a ban for being this fucking stupid... then i dont know what gets you banned.
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ckw you probably wanna edit your post so the quote belongs to the right person. It's Rabiator's, not thesums'.
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I thought this was a really cool idea- you two went about discussing imbalance in a really straight forward logical way. About the collosus in zvp- maybe a corrupter buff would help the match-up out. it seems like they are the right tool to deal with collosus, but they just dont do their job fast enough. hopefully in pvp the game will evolve enough for the armies to become more diversified.
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I really like the idea of the show, though it's exactly how they mentioned. We just didn't know how to deal with mass colossus + gateway/VR. However, we have evolved and learned that baneling drops, when they're 1/4 of you're total supply, can xplode anything :D
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As a protoss player I can accept that both collossus and warp gate tech are overpowered, but that the race as a whole is not overpowered. That means that the entire race needs to be reworked.
In PvT although they say that it is a balanced matchup, most accept that early game T is overpowered whereas late gate, P is overpowered.
So how can we solve both PvT and PvZ? Nerf collosus and buff gateway units... the stalker specifically. But that would ruin all matchups due to warp gate being so powerful.
Warp gate is the CRUX of all Protoss balance issues. PvP is not colossus vs colossus... it is 4 warp gate vs 4 warp gate.
I propose:
nerf warp gates
nerf colossi
buff stalkers (major buff)
fallout of these proposed changes:
all toss timing attacks will come later or be weakened
Toss will be stronger early against Terran
Toss will be weaker late game against Terran
Stalkers will be more effective against roach/hydra in PvZ
PvP will change completely - early stalker builds MUCH stronger, 4 warp gate weaker
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On February 08 2011 04:29 randplaty wrote:
buff stalkers (major buff)
I've actually seen a 2 stalker timing attack that would be incredibly deadly (esp v. terran) if stalkers were one lick better than they presently are. A few marines have a real hard time dealing with what is presently an early pressure build.
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Not to mention how powerful blink rushes are against zerg on some maps if it is not scouted in time.... no, stalkers are not a unit that can be buffed without massive consideration.
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I think decreasing MM-density (increasing collisionradius or whatever) would make XvT less volatile in general, and more balanced. It would solve the issue with colossus/storm obliterating MM while at the same time it would decrease MM power early game.
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The only thing that needs to be tweaked regarding ZvP, is how powerful voidrays are against any unit that is not the hydralisk, the hydralisk is basicly a glass cannon that is obliterated by collosi and high templars, and yet is the only unit which can fight voidrays effectively.
It dosen't help that neither of the zerg tier 3 can even hit voidrays, and actually take extra damage from them.
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On February 07 2011 23:41 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2011 19:02 5unrise wrote:On February 07 2011 18:41 Rabiator wrote:On February 07 2011 18:17 Morfildur wrote:On February 07 2011 17:46 thesums wrote:
I do not understand why vikings are better than corrupters, the corrupters also have the corrupt ability, so they will be able to take down the colossus at a faster rate. People sometimes forget that range matters... Vikings have a high range, so they are able to attack the colossi without the stalkers shooting the vikings down. They can also snipe colossi with hit-and-run attacks before the big engagement. Yeah, but the Corruptors have higher armor and more hit points than the Colossi, so they can do it as well ... so comparing the two and saying "A is better than B" is quite useless. It all comes down to a) your micro b) the enemies micro c) the map d) your unit composition e) the enemies unit composition if you can use a unit "effectively". So there are TONS of factors involved other than "basic unit stats" to make a unit great, mediocre or uselessly underpowered. Please please please stop the useless "kids playground discussions" without taking all sides and aspects into account. The Colossus isnt imbalanced, but it is more powerful on some maps than on others ... so you should rather figure out which MAPS are the bad ones and why instead of arguing about the stats or unit abilities. The "imbalance" of the maps even got mentioned in the video ... albeit only in just a few sentences. It is the core of more imbalance than most want to admit. I agree that you shouldn't compare A to B in general, but when it comes to killing colossi, a well defined comparison, we can say that vikings can do it better since longer range is more important. Long range allows better micro and control. Also, just shoving the old cliches in people's faces about how it all comes down to "a) your micro b) the enemies micro c) the map d) your unit composition e) the enemies unit composition" doesn't really say much, since whether a unit is inherently better or worse against colossi will obviously influence how easy it is to micro against colossi and for your enemy to safely use their colossi. I've seen your previous thread in which you stated that you don't even have the game... why do you feel you need to be so vocal? blah blah blah P.S.: a) I still dont own the game.b) Why shouldnt I talk about it when the "mistakes in the discussion" (focusing on the wrong target) are so blatantly obvious? It is just some common sense that is needed to understand.
I hate to criticise someone based on credential, but if you don't even play this game, you really shouldn't be so vocal about what you may for some reason believe about balance, compared to those of us who play at a decent level (Master's league, albeit still not at top level). You really don't have the experience as any race, let alone as zerg, to really have anything to say, since... you don't even play the game ...
secondly on your point about common sense: common sense would tell you that you shouldn't so forcefully comment on something if you don't have the experience to relate it.. in this case the experience of playing this game... May I respectfully suggest: + Show Spoiler +
I'm not going to address the whole post, but your comment about corruptors as "throwaway missiles" really show you know nothing about economy management or what typically happens in an engagement. Why don't you buy the game, play zerg, and throw away your corruptors at his colossi which you deem obviously the right way to do it since corruptors are for people "with lower microing skills"?
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largers maps are just going to be worse for zerg... Hydra off creep...its pathetic... Which is the true heart of the issue. I really think hydra/and roach should be switched. Give roach armor 2 and more HP for 2 food cost. Make Roach a lair tech unit. stops the whole air rush cheese crap and means zerg can only really rush with lings...banes.
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I think this could be a very good series and I hope they keep it up. On another note, idra is soooo awkward my god it hurts just to watch.
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Finally got around to watching this, took some notes while I was doing so. I'll be quoting my notes and then explaining:
Vikings vs Corruptors against Colossus: cf. BW reaver. Zerg - hydra/muta: snipe/focus play. But Terran - tank/mine/turret: defense/position play. But air only option in SC2 b/c force field.
The (sort of) equivalent Protoss unit to the Colossus in Broodwar was the reaver. But where I/A said that the corruptor is a viking equivalent (in this case), in BW there both aren't the same equivalencies and Zerg and Terran deal with reavers differently. Terran defends with position (turrets, pre-placed tanks, mines; later "hard counters" the shuttles with goliaths), while Zerg anti-reaver play is micro-heavy and based on sniping the reavers, usually with hydra or muta. The Terran defense fails when troops are out of position; the Zerg fails when he gets out-micro'd or doesn't have the right units at the point of attack (slightly different from pure position).
So assuming Vikings are and remain a counter (in this case a "snipe" counter) to Colossus, that doesn't necessarily mean the Zerg solution will be the corruptor or even the broodlord (air units that can defeat the colossus). I'm not sure what other options are, though. "Suicide" nydus worms to split up and flank a Protoss army maybe?
MOBILE RANGE
Speed/Range/Armor
How to get to base-based macro play? iDra's recommending basically all-in: attack (to kill Colossus) -> attack (to kill Protoss) -> win/lose
Most BW units (except the "supers" - ultra, carrier, BC) have some obvious weakness. Tanks are immobile and with min range while sieged and not really big HPs. Templar have storm, but limited energy and are slow as hell. Lurkers same as tanks. Zealots, lings, marines have high dps but melt to (massed) higher tech (marines especially). Goons have a relatively weak attack except vs tanks, hydras are weak, goliaths unwieldy... I could go on, but you get the point.
On this scheme, the Colossus as used now is overpowered because it's mobile, ranged, heavily armored - it's got everything, it's only vulnerability is air. It's a walking laser carrying ultralisk.
So the Colossus is functionally the equivalent of the siege tank or (now nonexistent) lurker - except it's higher up the tech tree, really expensive, and heavily armored, and not just mobile but pretty fast. In other words, it's a super unit, meaning that in theory you shouldn't be able to mass them until late game. (Compare: four reavers = WOAH, even in PvP or lategame PvZ. Four Colossi = standard game.)
tl;dr version: the Colossus is an end-game or fast tech build unit being used routinely in the midgame - in other words, the fast tech build is standard.
This suggests to me a couple possible issues with the game:
- The game's not been played out to the point we know where the vulnerabilities are and can exploit them, forcing slower tech because of more units. This is easily the most likely explanation for almost anything right now and should probably be our default.
- Something's wrong with the build speeds/costs for tech structures. My initial thought was that SC2 tech is too cheap relative to unit costs. Unit costs are essentially comparable, and running a rough comparison of SC2 tech timing/costs against BW (data from liquipedia) disproved this:
The SC2 gateway takes 5 longer to build for the same cost. The cyber core takes 10 less in SC2, and is 50 M cheaper. The robo facility takes 15 less in SC2 and is 100 G cheaper. The SC2 robo bay, though, takes 35 longer and is 50M/100G more expensive. So teching straight to colossus in SC2 costs the same and takes 10 more time than teching straight to reavers in BW.
After looking through liquipedia, though, it seems like SC2 has less money floating around at a given point (SC2 resources vs. these threads linked from BW LP suggest that SC2 miners mine slower (certainly the starting "single mining trip" is lower, 30 vs 32) and they build relatively slower as well) assuming constant/ideal probe production. This suggests that the problem is that with costs remaining about the same, everything is a little bit more expensive in SC2; teching thus becomes (strangely) safer, as the potential stuff your opponent has to kill you with at any given point is going to be less.
What about mass nydus play to defuse the ball or does that result in Day[9] "Just go f***ing kill him!" from the Protoss?
I remain unconvinced that the problem is the Colossus, as it's really just an essential part of the "Protoss ball", which is just as deadly in BW. The solution - assuming I'm right - would at least partly be to keep Protoss off balance and deny the Protoss ball middle position - ling raids, drops, etc. This may be a map issue though: on a smaller map, 24 lings at your 4th when you have 3 other bases mining may be enough of a weakness on the Zerg part that you can just go kill him.
[iDra and Artosis had] some map discussion, but little [about] position play
[We need] maps big enough to put *multiple* positional considerations on the map.
Take a look at Metalopolis and then at Empire of the Sun. Metalopolis is big but simple: the SC2 map has a straightforward expansion pattern: from any given main you're moving either clockwise or counterclockwise (but only one) out from your main to take all of "your" bases, with the option to secure the middle - and dominate all non-drop attack routes. The BW map has a direction change built into the third base: you're either expanding "toward" the enemy (nat) and then away (3rd) or the reverse.
When you take and secure the middle base, you've secured your bases on Metalopolis because you can safely move through the middle. In contrast, any expansion on Empire of the Sun extends your position. On the other hand, Shakuras Plateau has the sort of strategic expansion zig-zag I noted is standard in BW maps; as does Kulas Ravine (though it's got clutter, which is another problem)
Further thoughts: I'm having difficulty finding unit speeds for BW units. How do they compare overall to SC2? I feel like they're faster relative to the maps but...
I notice that most SC2 maps in use right now aren't using the entire space - corners, especially, are being left blank. The standard BW map has bases in the corners, forcing use of all the space in most cases.
If one unit focus -> bad matchup; what about mutalisk ZvT that dominates BW? But it's survivable, so...
Just a random question. If the Colossus were balanced differently (let's ignore how) so that it was, say, a midgame staple but was only a kind of useful support unit by lategame (I'd compare the muta in BW ZvT, oddly enough), even with the focus at the beginning of the game that's not a problem... and anyway, in PvP I think it's more like the BW reaver: most useful unit, so everybody gets them. But then, some people don't like PvP.
MAJOR BALANCE ISSUES -> Timing
This was kind of a summation of my thoughts about the points raised. A lot of the balance talk had to do with when units were used, or how they affect things. Even the "roach was obviously OP" example comes down to timing in the end: at 1 supply, you can simply build not only too many of them, but too fast. Or maybe this is oversimplifying things.
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On February 08 2011 04:46 Vanidar wrote:I've actually seen a 2 stalker timing attack that would be incredibly deadly (esp v. terran) if stalkers were one lick better than they presently are. A few marines have a real hard time dealing with what is presently an early pressure build.
doesn't that have the same relationship as reaper vs zealot?
protoss tends to get stalker before zealot incase of reaper harass.
if 2 stalker rush becomes the norm, terrans would get early marauders.
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For me the bigger problem is that the Collossus is imbalanced even in a PvP scenario. I mean, the collossus is so strong that it's not worth to make any other P unit other than collossus, so to make the game balanced, they nerfed the hole race.
Well, even so the collossus might still be a bit overpowered against Zerg, which a minor nerf would correct. But I think that a major nerf alongside with a slight buff to protoss in general would be much better to the race and to the overall game balance as well.
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On February 08 2011 06:59 debasers wrote:
For me the bigger problem is that the Collossus is imbalanced even in a PvP scenario. I mean, the collossus is so strong that it's not worth to make any other P unit other than collossus, so to make the game balanced, they nerfed the hole race.
Well, even so the collossus might still be a bit overpowered against Zerg, which a minor nerf would correct. But I think that a major nerf alongside with a slight buff to protoss in general would be much better to the race and to the overall game balance as well.
Exactly, I am a terran player and I am sick of tank wars when it is TvT
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On February 08 2011 06:59 debasers wrote:
For me the bigger problem is that the Collossus is imbalanced even in a PvP scenario. I mean, the collossus is so strong that it's not worth to make any other P unit other than collossus, so to make the game balanced, they nerfed the hole race.
Well, even so the collossus might still be a bit overpowered against Zerg, which a minor nerf would correct. But I think that a major nerf alongside with a slight buff to protoss in general would be much better to the race and to the overall game balance as well.
lol it's funny cuz that actually is true in a sense.
Thing is, it doesn't really matter how you do it, but you need to get colossus in the game. An army without colossus in PvP will lose to an army with colossus face-to-face in a normal mid to late game scenario pretty much 100% of the time. Point is, PvP basically revolves around killing colossus and getting colossus, and although it's not quite BW-ZvZ-level monotonous, it's does make it bland.
I don't think it's really overpowered, though. It's intended to be a strong, late-game damage dealer with splash, and it just so happens that it works very well against Zerg and balls in general (e.g. stalker balls......). As long as you learn to deal with it directly, it's not that hard to take care of them, even though they are quite the pain in the ass.
I'm pretty happy with the game balance as it is, to be honest. I play all three races equally well with acceptable proficiency, and i've felt there's no huge imbalance at the moment that needs immediate patching. Like they said in the vid, though, there might be some imbalances that might become apparent only after the fact, so who knows. I guess that's what PTR is for xD
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On February 08 2011 07:00 DestroManiak wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2011 06:59 debasers wrote:
For me the bigger problem is that the Collossus is imbalanced even in a PvP scenario. I mean, the collossus is so strong that it's not worth to make any other P unit other than collossus, so to make the game balanced, they nerfed the hole race.
Well, even so the collossus might still be a bit overpowered against Zerg, which a minor nerf would correct. But I think that a major nerf alongside with a slight buff to protoss in general would be much better to the race and to the overall game balance as well. Exactly, I am a terran player and I am sick of tank wars when it is TvT
I never make anything out of a factory when I play TvT and I haven't lost a single TvT for months on the ladder (I was 4th in my diamond division when I stopped laddering as much). Don't mean to brag, just tryin' to say there's other ways to go about TvT than just tank wars, and it's actually super effective 
Edit: now that I think of it, my TvT strat pretty much exploits the fact that there's so many tanks. MMM > tanks if you do it right ^^
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EPT
