EPTIMBALANCED! - Introduction - Page 58
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If you have criticism, you need to address the content, not the hosts. Idra and Artosis are 2 (1.5) Zerg players, but you can't point that out and then blanket them as biased. Respond to the content. You can't tell them to "get 2 Terran and Protoss players". That's fucking obtuse advice. "Yo just get 4 more high level players to record with you." Yes, I think everyone sees the value in getting it, but it's not practical. Respond to the content and use evidence / logic to back up your claims. | ||
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BeastofManju
United States79 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
Edit: now that I think of it, my TvT strat pretty much exploits the fact that there's so many tanks. MMM > tanks if you do it right ^^ Off topic, but this would suggest that the tank player also isn't doing it right. It's hard to argue one strat automatically being better than another if you assume that one player is playing well and the other isn't. The basic reason tank wars are so prevalent in TvT is because bio gets demolished by the tank play, so it's generally not viable if both players are playing equally well. An excellent player could make basically any overall strategy work vs. a not so excellent player, and players can have off days. This doesn't reflect on the strategy so much as skill level. Back on topic, pretty much every person in this thread agrees that it sucks that colossus is so important to every single matchup, and it's very hard to not build any of them. On the other hand, a lot of protoss units rarely, if ever get used. Most players do not get DT's every fight, or carriers, or motherships as a staple unit. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8279 Posts
 . I fully agree that the collosus is too important for protoss tho. Without it, protoss will be unplayable in lategame (vs terran theres always HT as well, but in my experience, good ghost control nullifies ht a bit too easy), but with it, they can become a too strong in certain situations. A race shouldn't be that blatantly focused around a single unit.Looking forward to ep 2! | ||
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Starcraftmazter
Australia71 Posts
Then you could discuss how warp makes the big makes imbalanced for protoss who are unaffected by rush distance, and can safely fast expand or 4 gate...or both and keep constant pressure on the terran without having to worry about a counter attack. And these two concepts should be tied together to explain just how much the new maps are horribly imbalanced against terran. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On February 08 2011 09:52 Starcraftmazter wrote: How about discussing the imbalance of zerg on big maps with creep (which wasn't in bw) and nydus which does not need to be placed on creep (which is unlike bw), and discuss how this is completely different from BW, not to mention not having valkyries or science vessels to counter mutas, and hence why big maps are imbalanced in favour of zerg in sc2. Then you could discuss how warp makes the big makes imbalanced for protoss who are unaffected by rush distance, and can safely fast expand or 4 gate...or both and keep constant pressure on the terran without having to worry about a counter attack. And these two concepts should be tied together to explain just how much the new maps are horribly imbalanced against terran. You should probably use some real game examples or statistics to back up these claims as they're mighty bold claims. We may think Terran is UP on these type of maps, but since we've never seen fair larger maps played in a high level tournament we can't really be all that sure. | ||
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ch4ppi
Germany802 Posts
I feel like everything the Protoss does is based on the collossus, even Stargate play usually ends in collossi. I wouldnt call the Collossi basicly imbalanced, but it makes the game very predictable. So I'm a Zerg player and it there are already a lot of statements which include my opinion about the Collossi in PvZ. It dominates the ground to heavy. Two possible solutions for that would be: 1.) obviously a dmg nerf. I would try getting rid of the +dmg against light, which would lead to more decent units against Colossi, since as 2-3 Colossi hit the field, building Hydras or Lings is nonsense basicly 2.) Getting the range lower. to like 8 =/ But I dont like this option, because it will effect PvT significantly. In this case Vikings also need range 8... | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
1. You managed to describe what imbalance is, but you've established no criteria for testing for it. This makes the term loose enough that it is ultimately meaningless. What does a single unit have to do to be considered imbalanced? Most of the facts stated on the show would remain true if the colossi did half the damage they currently do, for some meaning of "imbalanced" (they'd still be cost effective against clumped up units - if only marginally so - I'm willing to bet). 2. You mention you're not talking about someone who goes 12 colossi with no support (as this is easily counterable - how do you know it isn't, in fact, the amount of damage a stalker can tank, or the amount of issue forcefields give you advancing on colossi, which is the real "imbalancing" culprit. 3. You've done no colossus-specific testing. Ok, when I say that, I know you've both done extensive playing against colossi. What I mean is - show us that. Greg has a defined position on the matter (that colossi are "obviously overpowered" in PvZ), show us battles. I know by providing a whole replay your case falls prey to small criticisms ( e.g. "You missed one larva inject by 4 whole seconds, no WONDER you're having trouble with colossi" /facepalm). But just show us specific instances, ask what you could do, tell us why you think it wouldn't have mattered. I don't necessarily disagree with your statement, but I KNOW I'd agree with it more if you showed us something small (like a minute or two clip of a battle) or the Colossus actually wrecking things you don't feel it should be able to wreck. I probably could come up with some more, but really - this is the big stuff. | ||
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MisterPuppy
161 Posts
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5unrise
New Zealand646 Posts
On February 08 2011 11:08 Treehead wrote: It appears this has inspired a lot of balance debates. That's all well and good, but I have some actual comments on the show. 1. You managed to describe what imbalance is, but you've established no criteria for testing for it. This makes the term loose enough that it is ultimately meaningless. What does a single unit have to do to be considered imbalanced? Most of the facts stated on the show would remain true if the colossi did half the damage they currently do, for some meaning of "imbalanced" (they'd still be cost effective against clumped up units - if only marginally so - I'm willing to bet). 2. You mention you're not talking about someone who goes 12 colossi with no support (as this is easily counterable - how do you know it isn't, in fact, the amount of damage a stalker can tank, or the amount of issue forcefields give you advancing on colossi, which is the real "imbalancing" culprit. 3. You've done no colossus-specific testing. Ok, when I say that, I know you've both done extensive playing against colossi. What I mean is - show us that. Greg has a defined position on the matter (that colossi are "obviously overpowered" in PvZ), show us battles. I know by providing a whole replay your case falls prey to small criticisms ( e.g. "You missed one larva inject by 4 whole seconds, no WONDER you're having trouble with colossi" /facepalm). But just show us specific instances, ask what you could do, tell us why you think it wouldn't have mattered. I don't necessarily disagree with your statement, but I KNOW I'd agree with it more if you showed us something small (like a minute or two clip of a battle) or the Colossus actually wrecking things you don't feel it should be able to wreck. I probably could come up with some more, but really - this is the big stuff. I cannot agree more. Artosis and Idra need to talk about how well the colossi synchronise with other units and abilities in the protoss ball, especially the sentries with their forcefields and gaurdian shields, not just the gateway units. I doubt colossi would be considered up for balance debate if the protoss doesn't have sentries or voidrays, for example, to complement their thermal lances. They then need to show why this synergy is imbalanced, probably by comparing the the synergy between zerg units or show why the combination is difficult to beat. I don't disagree with their statement necessarily, but I think there are a lot more depth to this topic than just discussing the damage/ health/ mobility of the colossi itself. Of course, replays would be useful. The thing is though, I think they assume who have watched enough of progamer replays to know what they are talking about, but nevertheless it still doesn't hurt to have some included. As you said though, analysing replays will require that the community (the half that doesn't support the imbalance claim) doesn't criticise every single minute mistake. | ||
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yoplate
United States332 Posts
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Maximumraver
Netherlands124 Posts
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Ratel
Canada184 Posts
On February 08 2011 12:14 Maximumraver wrote: There's gonna be a lot of quotes now about the Day9 daily i think :p we all know his opinion about this whole thing | ||
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Maximumraver
Netherlands124 Posts
On February 08 2011 12:20 Ratel wrote: we all know his opinion about this whole thing I didn't, i assumed it was something similair to this yes I did not know he said something about this earlier though. | ||
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Starcraftmazter
Australia71 Posts
On February 08 2011 09:54 Logo wrote: You should probably use some real game examples or statistics to back up these claims as they're mighty bold claims. We may think Terran is UP on these type of maps, but since we've never seen fair larger maps played in a high level tournament we can't really be all that sure. The arguments I gave are pretty basic, there is no need to prove them. The question is, do they imply without question that the maps are imbalanced for terran. I certainly believe so, I don't know how they can be considered balanced when zerg and protoss both have significant aspects to deal with larger maps and can be very mobile on them, while terran is extremely immobility and has no macro/mobility traits at all. | ||
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Ratel
Canada184 Posts
On February 08 2011 12:22 Maximumraver wrote: I didn't, i assumed it was something similair to this yes I did not know he said something about this earlier though. me neither i know it from the daily that goin now ) | ||
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Maximumraver
Netherlands124 Posts
On February 08 2011 12:29 Ratel wrote: me neither i know it from the daily that goin now ) haha ok, i assumed you knew  (btw the daily (and Day[9]) is awesome :D! as most of them are)But I'll stop this talking about dailies for now, I'm kinda going off topic :p | ||
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BattRoll
100 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On February 08 2011 12:53 BattRoll wrote: Idra is a one dimensional zerg player. I watch his games and he's always crying about imbalance when people counter unit compositions. "DAMN WHY DO I KEEP LOSING TO PROTOSS WHEN I AM SPENDING 10K GAS/MINERALS ON CORRUPTORS VS A FEW COLLOSUS AND 50 STALKERS GOD SO IMBA" Then guess what? If you don't make enough corruptors then by the time you kill the colossi guess what? The 4 colossi will have stomped your army into the ground so corruptors are useless anyway. ^_^. | ||
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Wartortle
Australia504 Posts
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BattRoll
100 Posts
I think a lot of zerg players struggle with staying on tier 2 units and don't realize that once robo units start coming out, they're basically being out tech'd by the protoss player and corruptors are not meant to be the counter to collosus. They are a good counter to phoenixes/void rays and a passable counter to collosus but obviously if you're going up against a heavy collosus army and getting rolled by forcefields, and you're sitting there with 20 corruptors, YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING WRONG. It's not a big deal to throw down an infestation pit and go to tier 3. The cost is minimal and you can basically do this on 2 and a half bases saturated and meet a protoss army with ultralisks when they're ready to push on you. upgraded lings with a ready roach warren can pretty much hold off any gateway pushes in the meantime if you want to tech straight to ultras. I'm not saying this is a fullproof plan but it kinda owns the protoss meta game right now. and if you're playing some cookbooking newbie doing gateway timing push followed by expansion into collosus, it will rip them apart. | ||
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