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If you have criticism, you need to address the content, not the hosts. Idra and Artosis are 2 (1.5) Zerg players, but you can't point that out and then blanket them as biased. Respond to the content.
You can't tell them to "get 2 Terran and Protoss players". That's fucking obtuse advice. "Yo just get 4 more high level players to record with you." Yes, I think everyone sees the value in getting it, but it's not practical.
Respond to the content and use evidence / logic to back up your claims. |
thnx for the show artosis&idra.
But I have to say this type of balance discussion, however objective and thought out it may be will only fuel the whiny inexperienced players like we see in this thread ;/ not many bright responses I must say.. as soon as some1 opens their mouth and talks about balance anymore, they are
1) biased.
2) wrong, someone will always have a different oppinion and declare the OP a retard for having an opinion of their own.
3) noobs, cuz if you complain about something that someone else in turn is struggeling with using you are obviously bad..right?
this comunity is sick, we need to all stfu about balance so we can open up the floor to people who actually excell at this game, the very tip top level of players are the only ones imo that are worth listening to, artosis is not even amongts them (sry I love you but not really a tiptop level player)
...
right now if some1 has a problem with unit composition x, or strategy y, its never "how do I beat that?" or "can I get some help against this? im confused"
its "this shit is imba"
"noob race, imba units"
"nerf nerf nerf nerf, terran/zerg/toss op"
enough already?
edit: this "show" may be a good forum for good players to voice the balance opinions without being flamed by the masses.. but its not being received well so maybe not ;<
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A lot of the people posting here seem to think that the StarCraft community are puppets and simply believe with 100% certainty everything a pro player says. I always assumed that people believed pro players not because of their authority (being professional/famous), but because since they are so good at the game, they have a higher chance of being correct in their opinions. Believe it or not they often do make good arguments and have intelligent opinions. Personally, I critically analyze all information given to me, so I am not so quick to believe everything I hear. If I hear an unsound argument, I won't believe it. I am a diamond protoss player, and I agree with Idra that Colossus are slightly overpowered in the PvZ matchup, and I wouldn't believe that if I didn't actually think it was true based on my experience playing the game.
And to those people who are so concerned about people whining in the bronze league, why do you care about the bronze league? People who are bad at the game will always whine, I don't understand why talking about imbalance is such a huge issue.
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Great job guys, I agree (despite my Protoss Heritage). I don't like the fact that Protoss needs to over-rely on Sentry and colossus. Keep up the good (well analyzed) work.
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There is a pretty huge overreaction here as it seems most of you didn't even watch the video, and were once again blinded by your subjective experiences of the players beforehand.
At no point did they claim that Zerg needed a buff, they clearly stated that given the current mappool and the logical way to deal with Colossus at this time, it is ridiculously difficult to hold off a Protoss push, making the game increasingly one dimensional.
They go into more depth about this during the actual video, so I feel no need to transcribe their words here again, just take a step back and follow the logic placed forward.
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I do think this show would benefit from getting even more specific--get right down to builds, which are much easier to analyze in balance terms.
It would be interesting to see an episode on whether something like 2base 6gate w/36 probes (or whatever that timing push is) specifically is imbalanced--and much less controversial to boot
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Honestly I think more people actually need to read into what they're saying.
They don't like how the Protoss race is basically designed around the Colossus. The colossus could be OP or UP, it doesn't matter. The whole point is, that it would be good if blizz could rework protoss and bring down the colossus at the same time. Not just the LOL ZERG QQ stuff
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On February 03 2011 12:40 _`HypeRnoN` wrote:
And to those people who are so concerned about people whining in the bronze league, why do you care about the bronze league? People who are bad at the game will always whine, I don't understand why talking about imbalance is such a huge issue.
you are correct bro, we shouldnt care about bronzies whiny rants.. were it not for the fact that we get them spewed in our face (every forum dedicated to this game currently?) all the time...
also its difficult sometimes to identify these players cuz queite honestly, if some1 is bronze or masters doesnt really shine through anymore since everyone is just flaming all the time ;/
edit: I wish there was some way I could filter out anyone below masters league tbh  elitist? damn straight.. when I wanna read up on strategies and metagame, why would anyone care what some1 from gold league thinks? no offence bro, you are stil just as good of a person and might be the cutest funniest person ever, but your opinions on strategy and balance and metagame is invalid automaticlly.
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On February 03 2011 09:50 Scrimpton wrote:
Every non Zerg who "lols" at IdrA or any Zerg talking about imbalance should actually try playing zerg at a somewhat high level.
The counter for relatively simple executed things is often a much much much more complicated set of responses that require more multi tasking to defend than to execute. On top of that you get the drone/unit larvae decisions AND injects + creep that lose you the game if you dont keep on top of.
Never saw a terran lose because his mule was 10 seconds late.
Your post has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do about imbalance.
It might be harder (for you) to play Zerg, but that doesn't mean that the race is weaker. Especially considering two GSL champions, and an overall win record that's only like one or two percent from being perfectly balanced with the other races.
Every race has its own style. For instance protoss has to do the exact same thing with warp ins and chrono boost.
I don't really like balance discussions overall until the game is "figured out", which in my opinion sc2 is not.
Basically every unit in the game has been complained about because it's imbalanced, then some new strategy has come up to work things out.
On top of my head: The marine, the marauder, the medivac, the stalker, the immortal, the hydra, the roach, the mutalisk, the collosus, the high templar, the banshee, the dark templar, the thor etc.
Just the magic box trick revolutionized the game immensly (and stopped the thor balance discussion), and I think there's more of that to come in the future.
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On February 03 2011 11:43 Saechiis wrote:
Even though I actually enjoyed watching this introductory episode, I still think this entire show is a horrible idea. You've obviously chosen a subject close to your interests and it's obviously going to provide you with a ridiculous amounts of viewers that want to hear all about how their opponents have an unfair advantage. It's not, however, in the interest of the SC2 community.
TeamLiquid is already overrun with hundreds of brainless bronze Zergs that cling to every word IdrA says and will go rampaging through the forums every time the magic word *imbalance* is proclaimed. For every person that can see through obvious bias, oversimplification and exaggeration there are at least two that don't or won't and it shows in the continuous degradation of TL's SC2 Strategy Forums.
You explain how Starcraft 2 should be balanced around top level play since that's where the variable of "skill" relatively has the least influence. You fail to discuss though, the human factor, and what makes someone an objective judge of balance. Because let's face it, both you, IdrA and Artosis, are biased towards Zerg in the same way you were biased towards Terran when you played that race in BW. You're both easily the most vocal and quick in claiming imbalance in both versions of Starcraft and one can't help but notice that the arrow is always pointed at things that are disadvantageous to your race of play.
Even though I can see that you've tried to at least make logical steps of reasoning, it's still so obvious that you're both not objective in your judgement. You talk a little bit about Colossi in TvP and how it's balanced there, but watching that as spectator you just feel your disinterest in the subject and how you seem to be getting that part out of the way to get to the point you "really" want to talk about. Which becomes pretty obvious when Artosis says "now let's talk about Colossi in ZvP" and you both can't help but get a huge grin on your face since you get to tell it's overpowered.
You have both stated to not be familiar enough with other races than Zerg to play them at a competetive level. Doesn't that say enough about the validity of your judgement as two talented, but still biased Zerg players?
You talk about the Colossus being a weapon of choice in all MU's and how it seriously obliterates ground. Concluding that it's too hard for Zerg to balance Corrupter count together with the economy required to churn them out. But that's obviously just 1 side of the story, you don't mention how Protoss gateway units all get totally raped by Roach/ Hydra, which is the reason why Toss needs ranged splash damage in the first place. The relative weakness of the core gateway units needs the additional DPS of Storm and Colossi for it to be cost-efficient. And since Storm is such an expensive and long tech path, Colossi are practically always the unit of choice to survive through midgame.
Basically, I feel that the only ones that are benefited by such a show are yourselves; whilst SC communities like the ones on TL, SCReddit and even the Bnet forums are left to deal with even more irrational balance whines than there are now.
if you think that Idra and Artosis are making a show to talk about their own interests you shouldn't even watch it.
why would they talk about Colossi in PvT if they think it is balanced for TvP?
you are the only one biased person here.
roach / hydra have never totally raped gateway units. even if does, it would be subject for another episode, since they are talking about COLOSSUS!!!
really, coming here calling Idra and Artosis biased towards Zerg and saying they are making it for their own interests is beyond retarded.
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Watched the show. Loved it.
Protoss does need some changes. I think they made the race too one-dimensional. Although it could just be that the maps force colossi too much. I mean they give you sentries + colossi + small chokes... its too dam good to ignore.
I would love to use more templar play in my game though hopefully they can make that a bit less expensive and maybe that would decrease dependence on colossi. OFC that would need balancing to make sure it doesn't get out of hand.
Can't wait for next episode.
PS don't mind the haters Artosis & Idra. We all love you <3
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Just watched the entire video, and I think they really underestimate the effectiveness of corruptors and burrowed roaches to deal with collosi.
Also, I feel they very much underplayed the fact that collosi are so immobile and the crux of their argument relied on the "ball of death", which is able to be countered by hit-and-run and mobile play. Though I admit I don't have off the top of my head to link to now, I've seen several games where skilled Protoss players lose due to being forced to keep their army all in one place while trying to deal with drops or multi-front attacks.
TBH, from watching every single GSL game along with many other tournament games, I feel the colossus is well-balanced in that it effectively counters light ground units but can reasonably be taken down by different play styles or a properly composed army (even marauders and roaches are highly effective when attention is paid to position of engagement).
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On February 03 2011 12:42 theqat wrote:
I do think this show would benefit from getting even more specific--get right down to builds, which are much easier to analyze in balance terms.
It would be interesting to see an episode on whether something like 2base 6gate w/36 probes (or whatever that timing push is) specifically is imbalanced--and much less controversial to boot
I very much agree with this, balance discussions must get very specific and in depth for them to have much weight with blizzard and to be genuinely valuable. the more and the closer the analysis the better
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I honestly think show like this is horrible idea
2 macro zergs (yeah artosis is zerg player) discussing about balance? sorry but you need more different insight on subjet to make discussion valid.
discussing about unit that is so late in tech tree is really not valid if you don't explain the situation better. was it 1 base collos rush? was it 2 base? was it fe? was it 3 base? what did zerg do? I mean... show me build that you're having problems with.
for instance reapers weren't imba on their own.
5 rax reapers with speed was imba. build was rather easy to learn and it gave you total game control for first 10-15 mins. that's why blizzard nerfed it.
I personally don't think this kind of discussions can lead to anything. discussion about protoss unit without decent protoss player?! come on!
Honestly Artosis just sank in my eyes once again : (
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I believe it would be better to explain the strategies currently used at the top levels against various builds and explain why those are used.
Yes the show was interesting, but by educating people about the game, we get less imbalance threads and it eliminates the whining. Although it may seem like they talked rather restrained, the underling point was that Zerg is severely crippled against Colossi.
I think that taking the idea of bringing pros on air is great, but can we try to avoid imbalance discussions?
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This thread is neck and neck with the SOTG thread for the most carcinogenic comments on all of TL.
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Yeah, I agree with this Imbalace pathes, and they needed to be nerf or else this game woulda been broken. indeed.
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"Collosus are so fast"
"hydras are so slow off creep"
Both have same speed.....
But onto the show i like the idea of it and i think it would be an amazing show with a few guests, i can trust artosis/idrA to be slightly less bias for the show and respect their understanding of the game at a high level but to be fully credible it will need guests from other races, other than that thanks for more great content artosis <333
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Nerfing the collosus would only cause more imbalance, for the reason that a toss. SIMPLY. cannot survive in most games without collosus support, gateway units are so weak for their cost compared to the cheap roaches and hydras that collosus is the only thing that holds the protoss army together without getting slaughtered. the only thing that is imbalanced are the maps, .. and terran..
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On February 03 2011 10:13 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
players get flamed for balance complaints because they all whine subjectively about the race they play themselves, therefor it's hard to take it serious. maybe if artosis and idra started saying zerg is overpowered that would be cool.
There is a huge difference between telling someone why is he wrong and basically telling someone it's hard not ridicule him because of bias and I don't mean their bias, I mean your views about them.
You completely disregarded their points, you completely disregarded the work that was put into this video.
- The work that can be heard by the way they form their sentences,
- put stress on their points and preemptively try to disarm accusations of whine,
- elaborate on and completely deplete all of the arguments for their views
- but also the work that can be literally seen by noticing on what they are looking at - they gave me incredibly strong impression of having notes, some sort of a "what to say" list and they look at it a lot to, by what they are saying, give the best impression of proffesionalism they can.
You could tell us about Ret's results of his experiments with Infestors in PvZ, Ret's ideas and theory about how Infestors should be used AS YOU ARE HIS MANAGER AND YOU ARE THE NUMBER ONE PERSON RESPOSNIBLE FOR EXPOSING YOUR PLAYERS and your sponsor because of that to fans and community as a whole.
Instead you gave a green light to every single retarded faggot who wants to derail this thread, you directly caused the moderation to have unnecessary work to do here - and SC2 forums aren't the prime example of users following the rules to say at least.
You are promoting the way of posting that is against the rules of the site you own and you are putting down people who want to contribute for free.
After showing how you handle the LR threads and not only them, you did this?
I am extremely dissapointed in you as an admin. You should be ashamed of yourself Nazgul.
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