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Jungle Basin Updated - Page 9

Forum Index > SC2 General
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sqrt
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1210 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-21 09:51:10
January 21 2011 09:50 GMT
#161
I swear to God, Zerg will call even the SC2 version of "Luna" Terran favored.
@
JakeBurton
Profile Joined October 2010
74 Posts
January 21 2011 10:00 GMT
#162
Obviously just theorycrafting here but I guess that's the flavor of the day: It seems to me that while zerg always wants to be up in bases and thus wants it to be hard for P and T to expand, having more easily taken bases per player obviously benefits zerg because zerg can simply expand faster than terran can. The terran economy is much less flexible than the zerg economy and this change should favor zergs since they should be able to accelerate into taking the third way before terrans can and because the third is gold, this advantage in acceleration will be even more valuable than it would be on another map.
Darren1337
Profile Joined October 2010
Ireland73 Posts
January 21 2011 10:06 GMT
#163
They turned jb into agria valley.
Uniden!
Smigi
Profile Joined April 2010
United States328 Posts
January 21 2011 10:10 GMT
#164
On January 21 2011 18:50 sqrt wrote:
I swear to God, Zerg will call even the SC2 version of "Luna" Terran favored.


Are you suggesting that Old JB, Delta Quadrant, Steppes of war, and lost temple are not terran favored?

I'm a pretty realistic when it comes to these things, and I don't its the zerg players whining more so than the maps being flat out imbalanced.

Try playing Zerg against a good terran on any of the maps listed, who knows how to abuse the map.
Drone then Own
b_unnies
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
3579 Posts
January 21 2011 10:18 GMT
#165
lol, this update would actually help PvP in that early game cannon cheese
sqrt
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1210 Posts
January 21 2011 10:18 GMT
#166
On January 21 2011 19:10 Smigi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2011 18:50 sqrt wrote:
I swear to God, Zerg will call even the SC2 version of "Luna" Terran favored.


Are you suggesting that Old JB, Delta Quadrant, Steppes of war, and lost temple are not terran favored?


I wouldn't go that far, but we see this whine every time. The map isn't even a day old ffs. Someone pointed it out "Easy second/third - Terran can get their exp easy. Hard second/third - I can't get my second/third easy". Do the maps need rebalancing? Hell yeah, but every time people try to talk about...anything...threads get buried by some sort of Zerg whine( god help the fool that goes into LR threads). .
@
Fadetowhite
Profile Joined August 2010
Korea (South)302 Posts
January 21 2011 10:23 GMT
#167
On January 21 2011 18:48 Kreb wrote:
I love the comments here.

If its easy to take its bad because Terran gets a free base.
If its hard to take its bad because Terran can deny others (most notably zergs) from taking it.

You do realize that Terran has had "an easy fourth" on XNC forever, right?

Awaiting "but that will give Terran a too easy fifth" argument regarding some map somewhere. I've still not seen that one yet but Im sure its just a matter of time.


we are not argumenting that terrans have a easy base, since that doesnt actually matter its the sole fact that their easy base denies ours. and in turn grants the terran even more bases.
메신저
frucisky
Profile Joined September 2010
Singapore2170 Posts
January 21 2011 10:24 GMT
#168
On January 21 2011 18:48 Kreb wrote:
I love the comments here.

If its easy to take its bad because Terran gets a free base.
If its hard to take its bad because Terran can deny others (most notably zergs) from taking it.

You do realize that Terran has had "an easy fourth" on XNC forever, right?

Awaiting "but that will give Terran a too easy fifth" argument regarding some map somewhere. I've still not seen that one yet but Im sure its just a matter of time.


This!

Zergs will have an easier 3rd imo with this change. Also, with 2 huge openings, if terran takes this, its very open to speedling harass.
<3 DongRaeGu <3
Uncultured
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1340 Posts
January 21 2011 10:26 GMT
#169
On January 21 2011 18:20 Fadetowhite wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2011 16:39 Uncultured wrote:
The reason JB used to be bad for Zerg is because acquiring their third was very hard. This alleviates that problem, by giving them access to a gold base on their own side of the map.


However this does not alleviate the problem, since the player on the offensive still has high ground adventage plus the fact that if the zerg takes this base the terran can just take the other high ground position, making the gold unholdable for the zerg.

Show nested quote +

Saying the rocks prevent you from expanding there for your third is utterly rediculous. You have units by then to kill them easily.


True we have units by then to kill it but not in reasonable fashion since the composition on this map has to be mutas for tier2, mutas and lings dont kill rocks very fast so the third will get delayed.

Show nested quote +

The argument that terran can get an easier 4th does not apply to the issues zergs were previously having on the map. If it become an issue somehow(I don't believe it will) We can then and only then infer that further changes should be made, or that the changes they made were not effective, or that the map should be removed. For all we know zegs are op when it's 3base to 3, and thus it makes it easier for them to get a 4th than ever terran. The point is WE DON'T KNOW HOW THIS WILL EFFECT THE MATCHES ON THIS MAP.


The agrument that terran can get an easier 4th does apply to the issues zerg's are facing due too the nature that zergs have to be one base up, lets not forget the fact that the 4th allows the zerg to mass the tier3 units he will need to break the highground siege line.

Show nested quote +

Let's try to think of this more objectively people. Immediately jumping to the nearest bad conclusion(with literally zero first hand testing, all you people ever do is theorycraft) is a great way to remain frustrated for the rest of your time playing this game through the many patches and changes that are sure to come.

Every zerg player will conclude at first glance that this change will not balance this map TvZ wise, since the fundamental problems are still there.

Show nested quote +

How people have such a blindly pessimistic view of things and remain functional in life is beyond me.

Pessimistic? i admit some comments are like this map will never be balanced etc. cause i do think this map could be one of the most balanced maps if they just make the map bigger so your army doesnt get clobbured by highground siege tanks years in advance, plus on every attack route.




I've never seen someone miss the point so... acutely. I'm hardpressed to believe you're either a troll or simply did not understand what I was saying. Every argument you presented is a straw man, circumventing the gist of my post.


Don't you rage when you lose too? -FruitDealer
Mindl3ss
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada2 Posts
January 21 2011 10:27 GMT
#170
Kind of looking forward to this if we see this elsewhere. :D
Play to win
doomed
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia420 Posts
January 21 2011 10:40 GMT
#171
Is it just me or is this updated map NOT on the NA server yet?
Numy
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
South Africa35471 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-21 10:42:59
January 21 2011 10:42 GMT
#172
On January 21 2011 19:40 doomed wrote:
Is it just me or is this updated map NOT on the NA server yet?


I think people have said a few times that it's on ladder but not on custom games. This could be EU/Sea though not sure.
Fadetowhite
Profile Joined August 2010
Korea (South)302 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-21 10:46:36
January 21 2011 10:45 GMT
#173
+ Show Spoiler +
On January 21 2011 19:26 Uncultured wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2011 18:20 Fadetowhite wrote:
On January 21 2011 16:39 Uncultured wrote:
The reason JB used to be bad for Zerg is because acquiring their third was very hard. This alleviates that problem, by giving them access to a gold base on their own side of the map.


However this does not alleviate the problem, since the player on the offensive still has high ground adventage plus the fact that if the zerg takes this base the terran can just take the other high ground position, making the gold unholdable for the zerg.


Saying the rocks prevent you from expanding there for your third is utterly rediculous. You have units by then to kill them easily.


True we have units by then to kill it but not in reasonable fashion since the composition on this map has to be mutas for tier2, mutas and lings dont kill rocks very fast so the third will get delayed.


The argument that terran can get an easier 4th does not apply to the issues zergs were previously having on the map. If it become an issue somehow(I don't believe it will) We can then and only then infer that further changes should be made, or that the changes they made were not effective, or that the map should be removed. For all we know zegs are op when it's 3base to 3, and thus it makes it easier for them to get a 4th than ever terran. The point is WE DON'T KNOW HOW THIS WILL EFFECT THE MATCHES ON THIS MAP.


The agrument that terran can get an easier 4th does apply to the issues zerg's are facing due too the nature that zergs have to be one base up, lets not forget the fact that the 4th allows the zerg to mass the tier3 units he will need to break the highground siege line.


Let's try to think of this more objectively people. Immediately jumping to the nearest bad conclusion(with literally zero first hand testing, all you people ever do is theorycraft) is a great way to remain frustrated for the rest of your time playing this game through the many patches and changes that are sure to come.

Every zerg player will conclude at first glance that this change will not balance this map TvZ wise, since the fundamental problems are still there.


How people have such a blindly pessimistic view of things and remain functional in life is beyond me.

Pessimistic? i admit some comments are like this map will never be balanced etc. cause i do think this map could be one of the most balanced maps if they just make the map bigger so your army doesnt get clobbured by highground siege tanks years in advance, plus on every attack route.





I've never seen someone miss the point so... acutely. I'm hardpressed to believe you're either a troll or simply did not understand what I was saying. Every argument you presented is a straw man, circumventing the gist of my post.


well thankfully you put your point in a TLDR
The point is WE DON'T KNOW HOW THIS WILL EFFECT THE MATCHES ON THIS MAP.


and all my arguments are based against this purely from a ZvT approach, so if you could elaborate your supposed point and how everything i pointed out is flawed in every single way i dont see how i missed to the point comepletly.
메신저
Kreb
Profile Joined September 2010
4834 Posts
January 21 2011 10:48 GMT
#174
On January 21 2011 19:23 Fadetowhite wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2011 18:48 Kreb wrote:
I love the comments here.

If its easy to take its bad because Terran gets a free base.
If its hard to take its bad because Terran can deny others (most notably zergs) from taking it.

You do realize that Terran has had "an easy fourth" on XNC forever, right?

Awaiting "but that will give Terran a too easy fifth" argument regarding some map somewhere. I've still not seen that one yet but Im sure its just a matter of time.


we are not argumenting that terrans have a easy base, since that doesnt actually matter its the sole fact that their easy base denies ours. and in turn grants the terran even more bases.

If you take a bit of time to read through the thread and the complaints you will find that this is indeed the source of plenty of whine. Maybe not yours, but a lot of others'.
Fadetowhite
Profile Joined August 2010
Korea (South)302 Posts
January 21 2011 10:53 GMT
#175
On January 21 2011 19:48 Kreb wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2011 19:23 Fadetowhite wrote:
On January 21 2011 18:48 Kreb wrote:
I love the comments here.

If its easy to take its bad because Terran gets a free base.
If its hard to take its bad because Terran can deny others (most notably zergs) from taking it.

You do realize that Terran has had "an easy fourth" on XNC forever, right?

Awaiting "but that will give Terran a too easy fifth" argument regarding some map somewhere. I've still not seen that one yet but Im sure its just a matter of time.


we are not argumenting that terrans have a easy base, since that doesnt actually matter its the sole fact that their easy base denies ours. and in turn grants the terran even more bases.

If you take a bit of time to read through the thread and the complaints you will find that this is indeed the source of plenty of whine. Maybe not yours, but a lot of others'.


ah indeed my mistake i should have said that i was not argumenting that since i enjoy playing vs a macro terran and macro games in general. i was more argumenting the fact that their base denies ours so easily, sorry.
메신저
Lythox
Profile Joined November 2010
Netherlands161 Posts
January 21 2011 10:54 GMT
#176
Blizzard posted this in the EU b.net forums:

"We are looking into the 1v1 map pool and possible changes to it. Our developers are working on additional ladder maps and those maps will be included as soon as they are ready.

Also Shakuras is back!"

So sooner or later, we're gonna get more maps!
ParasitJonte
Profile Joined September 2004
Sweden1768 Posts
January 21 2011 11:00 GMT
#177
Lol. Blizzard and their premature april fool's jokes :D!

They do a good job on reading on forums, watching GSL and listening artosis and tasteless comment on the maps. They probably stay in touch with strong players and well and get their opinion.

Then they come and try to make things right - without actually understanding the underlying problem.

It is true that the map will now favor longer games because the gold will be fairly easy to secure compared to the other expansions.

But what does this do to balance? The map is still very small. All this does is make it easier for terran to control the middle and makes it almost impossible to starve them because they will now have a gold expansion for free that cannot be attacked. This has to be every zerg's nightmare.

What would favor zerg? Imagine the map being twice as wide but until now there were no expansions to the very left (or right) of the map and they now suddenly added 2 expansions there. This would favor zerg.

Nice try blizzard. Nice try.
Hello=)
Lonyo
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United Kingdom3884 Posts
January 21 2011 11:02 GMT
#178
On January 21 2011 19:54 Lythox wrote:
Blizzard posted this in the EU b.net forums:

"We are looking into the 1v1 map pool and possible changes to it. Our developers are working on additional ladder maps and those maps will be included as soon as they are ready.

Also Shakuras is back!"

So sooner or later, we're gonna get more maps!

We don't want more maps.
We want GOOD maps.

If Blizzard added 30 maps to the map pool, they would probably still be 50% crap.
It's nice in principle that new maps are being worked on, but when they say their developers, it's not such good news, because their developers suck.
HOLY CHECK!
Uncultured
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1340 Posts
January 21 2011 11:13 GMT
#179
On January 21 2011 19:45 Fadetowhite wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On January 21 2011 19:26 Uncultured wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2011 18:20 Fadetowhite wrote:
On January 21 2011 16:39 Uncultured wrote:
The reason JB used to be bad for Zerg is because acquiring their third was very hard. This alleviates that problem, by giving them access to a gold base on their own side of the map.


However this does not alleviate the problem, since the player on the offensive still has high ground adventage plus the fact that if the zerg takes this base the terran can just take the other high ground position, making the gold unholdable for the zerg.


Saying the rocks prevent you from expanding there for your third is utterly rediculous. You have units by then to kill them easily.


True we have units by then to kill it but not in reasonable fashion since the composition on this map has to be mutas for tier2, mutas and lings dont kill rocks very fast so the third will get delayed.


The argument that terran can get an easier 4th does not apply to the issues zergs were previously having on the map. If it become an issue somehow(I don't believe it will) We can then and only then infer that further changes should be made, or that the changes they made were not effective, or that the map should be removed. For all we know zegs are op when it's 3base to 3, and thus it makes it easier for them to get a 4th than ever terran. The point is WE DON'T KNOW HOW THIS WILL EFFECT THE MATCHES ON THIS MAP.


The agrument that terran can get an easier 4th does apply to the issues zerg's are facing due too the nature that zergs have to be one base up, lets not forget the fact that the 4th allows the zerg to mass the tier3 units he will need to break the highground siege line.


Let's try to think of this more objectively people. Immediately jumping to the nearest bad conclusion(with literally zero first hand testing, all you people ever do is theorycraft) is a great way to remain frustrated for the rest of your time playing this game through the many patches and changes that are sure to come.

Every zerg player will conclude at first glance that this change will not balance this map TvZ wise, since the fundamental problems are still there.


How people have such a blindly pessimistic view of things and remain functional in life is beyond me.

Pessimistic? i admit some comments are like this map will never be balanced etc. cause i do think this map could be one of the most balanced maps if they just make the map bigger so your army doesnt get clobbured by highground siege tanks years in advance, plus on every attack route.





I've never seen someone miss the point so... acutely. I'm hardpressed to believe you're either a troll or simply did not understand what I was saying. Every argument you presented is a straw man, circumventing the gist of my post.


well thankfully you put your point in a TLDR
Show nested quote +
The point is WE DON'T KNOW HOW THIS WILL EFFECT THE MATCHES ON THIS MAP.


and all my arguments are based against this purely from a ZvT approach, so if you could elaborate your supposed point and how everything i pointed out is flawed in every single way i dont see how i missed to the point comepletly.



You arguments are not flawed in every way. They are decent arguments. They just aren't what I'm arguing in any way, and in fact are straw-men. I'm saying until you have tested the map, many, many times, you wont have the evidence to support(or not support) your arguments. Until you show me a replay of top level players unable to take a 4th base easily against terran, on this new map, then all your ideas and beliefs are unsupported, and as such are theory craft.

It's pessimistic to immediately think that at top level play this is unbalanced, without ever seeing if it is indeed so.
Don't you rage when you lose too? -FruitDealer
Sqq
Profile Joined August 2010
Norway2023 Posts
January 21 2011 11:16 GMT
#180
What a terrible place to have a gold base, haha. JB was already a very strong Terran map in terms of positioning, and this gold base is in the middle of where they position themselfs! People need to understand if Terran gets "free bases" the zerg needs to grab an extra all the time. because of the way the map is built the middle "3rd" for Terran is very easy for them to acquire, the way they siege and build chokes there now a days will make the siege tanks defend the gold as well.

I think Blizzard was hoping zerg take a quick 3rd, but this only makes so that Terran can secure 3rd and 4th with the same line of defense..
Dead girls don't say no.
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